Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[ShadowFighter15]

Maybe that's why I get good Sportsmanships and nobody can imagine me being a bad opponent.

And that's probably why I won't be going into any tournaments. Plus the smugness would only be due to how he was acting before the game, if it was just with some other store regular I'd be friendly about it.

People endorse me curb-stomping someone?
And I always thought that this game was supposed to be fun. But, apparently he deserved it.

It is meant to be fun, but it is terribly satisfying when you can take a jerk like that down a few pegs.

[Cheesegear]

I'm wondering if this eldar Spearhead list is as cheesy as they make it sound in the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vck-pV8_8fo

Not entirely. That's kind of the point of Spearhead. I also note that the list is 2500+ points. I mean, sure, in a regular game, that'd be pretty devastating. But, Spearhead? It's the next-best-thing to Apocalypse. Stuff like that is supposed to happen.

How many do you usually see in 1000?

Quite a few, depending on the army or your opponent.

Razorbacks, Vindicators and Thunderfire Cannons
Soul Grinders
Defilers
Ironclads and Furiosos
Raiders and Ravagers
Wave Serpents, Wraithlords and D-Cannons
Chimeras, Leman Russes, Gunships and Sentinels
Trukks and Battlewagons
Hammerheads and Devilfish
Exorcists

All are common enough to worry about. Even in 1000 points. Most of the time there are even two.

How many multi melta attack bikes is "enough" at 1000 points and what powers should I give my librarian when he's going to be wearing a jump pack and leading an assault squad?

Multi-Melta Attack Bikes? My 1000 point Hawk Lords have two. But, there are also 4 Meltaguns, an Assault Cannon and a Typhoon Launcher as well. I also have a Vindicator or Scouts with a Missile Launcher. And then a few Power Fists.

Blood Boil

Works pretty well, IMO. Especially if used in conjunction with Fear the Darkness or Shackle Soul as you can kill off the Sergeant. 50:50 Chance is pretty good. You can kill off Missile Launcher models, kill off the Sergeant-with-Power Weapon before you Assault, etc.

If it works, great. If it doesn't, it's not that good. It's also a psychic power, so, that has weaknesses too. Since it's an automatic hit and instant-kill regardless, it actually gets a lot of use.

Fear of Darkness

Doesn't work on Fearless units. Major downside. And not that good against Stubborn units.

Might of Heroes

You really need the extra D3 attacks when you're running a unit of Assault Marines with him? Probably only useful when you're the one being assaulted.

Shackle Soul

The best power. And the one that sees the most use. It works on Fearless units, and basically ruins that unit. If you end your movement phase in that magical land of 7-12" where you're basically boned (it happens), you can force a unit to not do anything.

Ruins Hormagaunts.

Shield of Sanguinius

Might be good for Assault Marines who often spend their time in the open, since AMs don't like being in Difficult Terrain. But, kind of pointless if you can run your Assault Marines behind LoS Blockers which most people try and do.

Smite

It's softens a unit before Assault. Not much else.

Blood Lance

Useful if you need it. Useless if you've built your army right.

The Sanguine Sword

If his best friend next to him has a Power Fist, why bother?

Unleash Rage
Cool but I want a librarian, not a pseudo chaplain.

...That's a joke, right? You're running with Assault Marines. How is this not awesome? However, you are right, if you're only using one power per turn (and it would probably be this one, IMO), then you're better off with a Reclusiarch or Chaplain since you wont need a psychic backfire test to do it.

However, a Librarian can use Unleash Rage 'in either player's Assault phase' meaning that if you get charged, it's not entirely a problem.

So it would probably be Fear of the Darkness and Might of Heroes.

Meh, and okay. I don't think the Blood Angels' powers are that good TBH unless you're combining Might of Heroes and Force Weapon. Or a (working) Blood Boil and Shackle Soul.

Epistolaries are pretty much mandatory.

[Klose_the_Sith]

People endorse me curb-stomping someone?
And I always thought that this game was supposed to be fun. But, apparently he deserved it.

As someone whose gene-seed was apparently taken from the Emperors Pointy Sticks, I'm used to losing pretty badly. Cause the dice are trying to kill me.

Funny thing is that even though I still play to win, I'm utterly calm during games. I still enjoy it, even when I get tabled by OMGWTF units or when I have to face off against my friends whiny little brother's infantry guard (I'm the only person who seems to be able to play him and keep their cool).

As a result, I really love seeing brutal games. It's like an artform to me. What you did was like a masterclass in it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I guess I can lose half my attack bikes and upgrade to an epistolary. Maybe take sanguine sword and downgrade a powerfist to a sword which has better synergy with furious charge anyway.

I figured if I took a 10 man assault squad with 2 melta guns and an infernus pistol, combat squaded them so that all the meltas were in one squad, then deepstriked that half, decent of angels would mean I could safely land in melta range on turn 2-3 and kill a tank. Seems to be the only real way to take advantage of decent of angels at any rate, apart from wasting points on super vanguard squads. Give the sergeant a thunder hammer as well and they have a chance to hurt and then stun a monstrous creature as well.

Shield of Sanguinius would be good if you took lots of scouts I suppose. I had an army idea which was 2 priests on bikes and as many combat blade scouts as I could fit in and hope to turbo boost and scout so I could first turn assault with furious charge. But it would be too much of a one trick pony that would fail if I got second turn.

[Cheesegear]

As a result, I really love seeing brutal games. It's like an artform to me. What you did was like a masterclass in it.

No, really, losing to the exact same army twice just doesn't happen to me. I took a Minor Loss the first time, then went back and curb-stomped him. Learn from my opponents and all.

I'm the G*d Damn Cheesegear.

Any similarities to Batman, and Batman 'never losing twice' are entirely coincidental.

I guess I can lose half my attack bikes and upgrade to an epistolary. Maybe take sanguine sword and downgrade a powerfist to a sword which has better synergy with furious charge anyway.

Do you have Furious Charge?

I figured if I took a 10 man assault squad with 2 melta guns and an infernus pistol, combat squaded them so that all the meltas were in one squad, then deepstriked that half, decent of angels would mean I could safely land in melta range on turn 2-3 and kill a tank.

Drop Pods for free for Assault Squads. Slightly less reliable than Descent of Angels, but, less mishaps and death. You also get to do it on the first turn and not wait for Reserve rolls.

Seems to be the only real way to take advantage of decent of angels at any rate...

Nobody said you have to take advantage of DoA...

[Closet_Skeleton]

Do you have Furious Charge?

If I'm near a priest or roll a 1 at the start of the game.

Drop Pods for free for Assault Squads. Slightly less reliable than Descent of Angels, but, less mishaps and death.

Drop pod models are expensive. I'll probably work out how to make them out of card eventually though.

Being able to fly after deep striking can be useful.

Nobody said you have to take advantage of DoA...

I suppose.

[Cheesegear]

Being able to fly after deep striking can be useful.

If you're using them to pop tanks, I guess you'll be in your opponent's deployment zone. If people have any sense, they'll attack your Assault Marines and they probably wont last two or three turns. You wont need to jump because your opponent will come to you.

See; What Happens to Sternguard After Drop Podding.

[Mattarias, King.]

Wasn't it you who wrote Pedro Kantor on the toilet?

Pfff, nah, I wish. I only play Sisters, so no "Pedros" in my army, I'm afraid.

I assume Sisters count as "An army that can actually shoot"?

I admit, I haven't been reading Battle Reports so far. Now I want to go back and read all of them.

Also, changing/tailoring your army list is a good tactic? I always thought it was kinda a jerk thing to do. Just build an all-comers list and whatnot.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you're using them to pop tanks, I guess you'll be in your opponent's deployment zone. If people have any sense, they'll attack your Assault Marines and they probably wont last two or three turns. You wont need to jump because your opponent will come to you.

See; What Happens to Sternguard After Drop Podding.

Which is why I only wanted to deep strike half of them and use the other half to back up the rest of my army. If I drop pod half of them the other half aren't that useful, but still scoring I guess.

[Cheesegear]

Also, changing/tailoring your army list is a good tactic? I always thought it was kinda a jerk thing to do. Just build an all-comers list and whatnot.

...As I said, the list I went with is an all-comers list. It just happens to also be really good at killing Tyranids. I did not Tailor my list. It's a pre-existing list that I've had for quite some time now. It's my Imperial Fists' 1st Company. If you've been reading the last...Two or three threads, you'll come across them every now and then.

Tailoring is a weird distinction. And you can't do it to most people who change their list every game. Which is kind of what I expect if someone is going to play the same person twice in a row.
"Oh, that's not a good unit/didn't perform very well. I might swap it out next game for X, and see if that's better."

For example "I'm going to be fighting Tyranids." I know that there will probably be a few T4, multi-wound Creatures about, a bunch of swarm-like units and an MC or two. That may not be the case, but, if I know that I'm fighting Tyranids, I can at least count on one or more of those things. This is not tailoring.

"I'm going to be fighting Swarmlord, Ymgarl 'Stealers, lots of Hormagaunts and Zoanthopes in Spores, so, I'm going to take X, Y and Z" is tailoring. You know, specifically, what your enemy is taking, and what you will do against it. Because you know exactly what's coming, you can...Ta-Da...Tailor your list to defeat it.

If the Tyranid army (or, by extension, the opponent) I played against had been truly good, it wouldn'tve mattered what army I played because 'all-comers' is supposed to mean exactly that. One is an educated guess (as seen when most people write their tournament lists), one is specific foreknowledge of your opponent's battle-plan.

Again, I didn't know my opponent was going to be using the exact same list until the deployment. Because he was using the same list, I knew what tactics he was using, and I knew how to avoid it. I did not know he was going to take the same list when I agreed to play him.

Seriously though, I had already lost with my Scout list, and there really isn't a chance I can beat Tyranids with my Scout list anyway. Believe me, I've tried. Why would I want to rematch with a list I'm just going to lose with again?
Even my opponent knew that when he said "You're using Scouts? I already beat those."

My Scout List is not an all-comers list. Or, not in 1000 points, anyway. And even in 1500/1750, it still has trouble vs. Chaos Marines.

Alternatively, if 'changing my list' is a jerk thing to do (my opponent didn't mind it, he just thought he was better than me and it didn't matter what I took), you did see who I was playing against.

[Wraith]

"Hah! Three units in Reserve? Do you even have a guy who gives you bonuses like Swarmlord?"
"No."
"Hah! That's dumb. You're never going to get your units in."

So, wait, the guy was playing against Space Marines and thought that whatever was coming down in Drop-Pods wasn't a serious threat!?



I cheerfully admit that I'm not up-to-date on most of the Codices and certainly don't know them all by heart, but any fool knows to be wary of things that seem out of place in your opponents' army. "If you don't understand it, it's probably a devious trick" - words that I live by every time I walk up to the table.
And they were Drop Pods, what more warning could he have possibly needed?

I think the guy was about to have an aneurysm. I said 'good game' and tried to shake his hand. He slapped my hand away and told me to go f* myself. Which actually surprised people at the table next to us, who couldn't imagine me being such a terrible opponent to get that reaction.

Okay, I'll also admit that I get despondent when I lose, and probably more than 'a little bit' grumpy when I lose badly, but it wouldn't occur to me in a thousand white-washed games to act like that to my opponent.

In your shoes Cheesegear, I would probably have made a formal complaint about his behaviour to the Staff. It's bad enough that he's spreading lies about you heresy about the Emperor's Finest, but aggressively swearing at your opponent like that is grounds for a ban from the building where I come from.

And he'd deserve at least that for running such a crummy army, let alone his behaviour as well

[NecroticPunch]

I've got $145 to Spend on Tyranid stuff. I don't need the codex. What should I get?

EDIT: And I might be getting $40 more.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Do you have any units at all right now? If so, what?

[NecroticPunch]

I have no units currently.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well, you need two troops and a HQ unit. The battle force lets you make all of these (somewhere between 398 and 733 points depending on how many upgrades you shove on them).

Really it all depends on what kind of army you want, because the generic answer of "a hive tyrant and two boxes of termagaunts" is pointless if you want for example a pure warrior or genestealer army.

I don't have a list of american pricing, but a battle force and another box of warriors gives you a playable army with a nice variety of troops that doesn't have any "not beginer friendly" metal models but is viable in small games.

[NecroticPunch]

Thanks for the help. I know what I want to get now

[Cheesegear]

So, wait, the guy was playing against Space Marines and thought that whatever was coming down in Drop-Pods wasn't a serious threat!?

I don't know. Now that I think over it, it just seemed so...Easy (because it totally was) to beat him. He just seemed to be so confident that he could beat me, and every turn that went on, he seemed to get angrier and angrier.

"If you don't understand it, it's probably a devious trick" - words that I live by every time I walk up to the table.

If you don't understand it, check the rules. They're probably breaking them.

But, yeah. Pretty much.

And they were Drop Pods, what more warning could he have possibly needed?

"I have Grey Hunters Deep Striking in Drop Pods, and I'll have two on the first turn and they're going to kill every single one of your Hormagaunts without even trying very hard because Bolters and Flamers vs. Hormagaunts is pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel. What I'm going to do is set up a crossfire between my Drop Podding units and the units that I've already set up. And, you know what? Since you might win after all, my Drop Pods also have S5, Large Blast weapons. Sure, you still get a save, but, we both know 5+ saves aren't that good. Also, even when you do assault me, I've got Counter Attack and I'm Grey Hunters, so I've also got at least as many attacks as you do, except I've also got Power Weapons and I've even got another dude who has D6 Rending attacks every Assault, so if my Bolter and Flamer attacks go well - which they most likely will - I'll most likely end up having more models than you and more, and better attacks, and then I'll win combat and you'll take Fearless wounds, and 5+ armour makes Fearless a bad thing. Or, if I kill Swarmlord in the first turn, which I actually try and plan on doing, and turn you Hormagaunts back into Ld 6 terribadness..."

It's bad enough that he's spreading lies about you heresy about the Emperor's Finest, but aggressively swearing at your opponent like that is grounds for a ban from the building where I come from.

I think after such a Crushing Defeat, it could be understandable. Some people are just like that. They're jerks when they win (even if they did use a b0rked list), and they go into fits if they lose (no matter by what margin) because their list is awesome and the other player must have cheated or something.

When people act like that in our club, we just exclude people. They can still rock up. But, no-one will play them. Or, people will play them, but, like me, they'll make sure they have some sort of death-list on bases, and break him. He either learns how to take a defeat, or he gets the hint and just stops coming on his own.

Also, in that sentence, I am the Emperor's Finest?
...

And he'd deserve at least that for running such a crummy army, let alone his behaviour as well

I think my curb-stomping him is kind of punishment enough. I really, really, really have the feeling he pulled his list off of the internet somewhere, and that might be a reason why he didn't (or couldn't?) change it.
Even when he was defeated so badly, everyone else seeing it and then hearing him complain said something to tune of "Well, yeah. It's your own fault."

Still, Wraith, did you at least enjoy reading the rest of the battle? You didn't say anything about whether you liked it or not.

[Lycan 01]

Awesome report, Cheesegear. Glad you showed that guy who's boss.


I was supposed to have a game against my SM buddy last night, but we got distracted by video games and Waffle House, and ended up pulling an all-nighter with Saints Row 2 and Nazi Zombies on World at War. Oh well, it was worth it.


However, I did succeed in making some progress on my Boyz. Aside from some details and touch ups, I finished about 5 of the little buggers yesterday afternoon and evening during various breaks of downtime. That brings me up to about 33 or so completed Boyz, or just over half my total amount. Huzzah?

[Mattarias, King.]

Tailoring vs. educated-guess list changing.

Woah, woah, I wasn't in any way accusing you of doing anything jerkish. I'm very sorry if it came across that way. I just meant, like, as a general thing.

But thank you. I understand the distinction better now, and will make sure to avoid the more unsportsmanly option.

[Wraith]

"I have Grey Hunters Deep Striking in Drop Pods..." *snip*

That shoulda done it, I think.
If he needs to be warned that you're going to try and murder his army in horrible ways, he's clearly playing the wrong game. He has no one to blame but himself for assuming that each game will turn out exactly like the last, and he is doubly a fool for assuming the same of a vastly different army.

Maybe I'm just jaded. I mean, no matter how often I win or lose I can usually tell when I'm about to receive a whole world of hurt at the hands of my opponent, and 9times out of 10 it doesn't require getting to the 3rd turn to do that....

I think my curb-stomping him is kind of punishment enough. I really, really, really have the feeling he pulled his list off of the internet somewhere, and that might be a reason why he didn't (or couldn't?) change it.

No, you curb-stomping him was punishment for spreading falsities among the other Players, disparaging your army and the game you played, and acting like an arrogant, net-listing loudmouth.

You still owe him for his disgracious reaction and rude language. At least, by my reckoning (and I'm pretty sure that I have Dwarf in my ancestry when it comes to holding grudges so maybe I'm a tiny bit biased.... )

Also, in that sentence, I am the Emperor's Finest?
...

"I am a Son of Dorn", right?

Still, Wraith, did you at least enjoy reading the rest of the battle? You didn't say anything about whether you liked it or not.

I beg your pardon sir, I thought that would be taken for granted. Heck, I was even considering adding something like: "1st Acolyte of the Cheesegear 40k-itP Dojo" to my sig, but wondered if it was going to look a bit creepy without mentioning it first....

Yes, I very much enjoyed your Battle Report - you have a very good narration 'voice' when it comes to 40k - and I very, very much enjoyed your tactical commentary. I can't remember the last time that I played a Spearhead game, but now I know for sure that I'll remember your advice on setting up the next time I do.

However, I did succeed in making some progress on my Boyz. Aside from some details and touch ups, I finished about 5 of the little buggers yesterday afternoon and evening during various breaks of downtime. That brings me up to about 33 or so completed Boyz, or just over half my total amount. Huzzah?

Good for you, sir! Keep at it, and you'll grind those little buggers down in no time.

I can't recommend an 8-hour session of non-stop painting to do it, though. Those things hurt.

[Cheesegear]

Wasn't it you who wrote Pedro Kantor on the toilet?

Pfff, nah, I wish. I only play Sisters, so no "Pedros" in my army, I'm afraid.

That's really bugging me. Especially since I can't find it. And, due to the fact that it was most likely between [spoiler] tags, 'Pedro Kantor' and 'toilet' gives me nothing in Google.
...Google fails. That's right. I said it.

If he needs to be warned that you're going to try and murder his army in horrible ways, he's clearly playing the wrong game.

Well, I don't normally play like that. And I really feel that taking a tournament-scaled list in a 'friendly' game is pretty Bad Form. Still, his list looked like a 'tournament' list, in the fact that he probably played every game as Annihilation and/or tried to Table his opponent every game.

I can usually tell when I'm about to receive a whole world of hurt at the hands of my opponent, and 9times out of 10 it doesn't require getting to the 3rd turn to do that.

It takes me until just after his deployment to work out whether the battle will go well or badly - or average. Dice rolls notwithstanding.

No, you curb-stomping him was punishment for spreading falsities among the other Players, disparaging your army and the game you played, and acting like an arrogant, net-listing loudmouth.

Well, after the game when he was telling people how badly I stomped him, their reactions were "Sounds like a Librarian, three Tactical Squads in Drop Pods and a Devastator Squad. No Vindicators? No Thunderfires? Sounds like a pretty average list. How'd you lose? Maybe you're just bad?"

Which I thought was pretty funny. Honestly, I keep looking at that Grey Hunters list and I try and figure out how it consistently does so well. Even against other Marines.

Alpha-Strikes are just that good, I guess.

"I am a Son of Dorn", right?

True. However, after listening to the Raven's Flight audiobook that has Corax wielding a Heavy Bolter like an FN P90 (because Primarchs have more awesome in their pinky finger than anybody else except Cypher), Batmaning all over the place ('Batman' is totally a verb), and with Imperial Armour VIII canonically making the Hawk Lords a successor Chapter of the Raven Guard (as if the Chapter Badge wasn't a big enough clue?), I'm willing to concede that Corax and his Ninja Marines are also pretty awesome.

Can't wait 'til I get my Korvydae. Such a cool model.

Now that Hawk Lords derive from Raven Guard, I have to now paint them emo-Marines (pale skin, black hair). However, the upside is, as most of you know - or should know - at least 100% of my models wear helmets.

...For those uninitiated, Corax uses a Heavy Bolter like Master Chief uses a Battle Rifle. Wait? You can make 'precision short bursts' with a Heavy Bolter? Not to mention running around in 'stealth mode' while doing it?
...Corax can. FY He's a Primarch. That's why!

Heck, I was even considering adding something like: "1st Acolyte of the Cheesegear 40k-itP Dojo" to my sig, but wondered if it was going to look a bit creepy without mentioning it first....

I did name my Hawk Lords' Captain Shrike 'Wraith'. Just for you and your amazing interpretation of the Fleet rules.

Yes, I very much enjoyed your Battle Report - you have a very good narration 'voice' when it comes to 40k - and I very, very much enjoyed your tactical commentary.

GW Staff reckon if I pulled my finger out and got to painting my army, I might actually make it into White Dwarf one of these days.


Anyway, everyone knows this particular unit;

Sternguard (x10) - 345 Points
x8 Combi-Meltas, x2 Heavy Flamers
+ Drop Pod

...Or 335 if you take x10 Combi-Meltas. But, ask yourself...Really?
When you put in Lysander, the points cost of this unit is kind of ridiculous.

How do people like;

Wolf Guard (x9) - 342 Points
x8 Combi-Meltas, x4 Power Weapons, x1 Power Fist
x1: Terminator Armour [Power Weapon], Assault Cannon
+ Drop Pod

Swap the x4 Power Weapons for x2 Frost Blades? Or another x2 Power Fists?

...Or, for those interested, x10 Wolf Guard with Combi-Meltas and Drop Pod is 255 Points.

x8 Combi-Meltas, Arjac and Drop Pod = 367 Points. Which is ~200 points less than Lysander. Arjac is Lysander, with a ranged weapon, Counter Attack and 11 wounds.

[Ninja Chocobo]

"Educated guess" tailoring is still tailoring. Don't do it.
Unless your opponent is a bad person. Then anything goes.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well, after the game when he was telling people how badly I stomped him, their reactions were "Sounds like a Librarian, three Tactical Squads in Drop Pods and a Devastator Squad. No Vindicators? No Thunderfires? Sounds like a pretty average list. How'd you lose? Maybe you're just bad?"

Which I thought was pretty funny. Honestly, I keep looking at that Grey Hunters list and I try and figure out how it consistently does so well. Even against other Marines.

I would guess that it's simply that "average" lists aren't actually bad as long as you avoid taking point sinks.

Now that Hawk Lords derive from Raven Guard, I have to now paint them emo-Marines (pale skin, black hair). However, the upside is, as most of you know - or should know - at least 100% of my models wear helmets.

Successor chapters get a differant homeworld, differant recruiting grounds and differant phenotypes.

I'm sure there are tons of really boring non-mongol White Scars successors. Seriously, the White Scars primarch was a massive liar. Guilliman's "strongest supporter" indeed. The only thing codex about his chapter is that it ideally has 10 companies of a hundred marines. Then again, the real point that Dorn disagreed with was splitting his chapter up, so Dorn split off 2000 marines and then sent the rest on a crusade to make it look like he'd devided his legion and Guilliman made himself a mini-empire where all his successor chapters were in cahoots anyway.

Anyway, everyone knows this particular unit;

Sternguard (x10) - 345 Points
x8 Combi-Meltas, x2 Heavy Flamers
+ Drop Pod

...Or 335 if you take x10 Combi-Meltas. But, ask yourself...Really?
When you put in Lysander, the points cost of this unit is kind of ridiculous.

How do people like;

Wolf Guard (x9) - 342 Points
x8 Combi-Meltas, x4 Power Weapons, x1 Power Fist
x1: Terminator Armour [Power Weapon], Assault Cannon
+ Drop Pop

I was thinking at one point of a pure wolf guard list (wolf wing - the terminator armour), but it was basically just grey hunter spam but with less models and grey hunters are good enough on their own.

Something like:

Spoiler

Show

Logan Grimnar
275 points

Troops
5 Wolfguard
all in terminator armour, 1 with chainfist, mark of the wulfen and combi melta, 3 with single wolf claws, 1 with assault cannon, drop pod
The assault cannon jumps out and joins the grey hunters and Logan steps into his drop pod seat. Or if he wants logan can drop two wolfguard out of one unit and put them in the longfangs. Or footslog with the long fangs and make them relentless.

10 Wolfguard
drop pod, 4 with combi meltas and bolt pistols, 2 with power weapons and bolt pistols, 1 with mark of the wolfen and power fist.

10 Wolfguard
drop pod, 4 with combi meltas and bolt pistols, 2 with power weapons and bolt pistols, 1 with mark of the wolfen and power fist.

10 Wolfguard
drop pod, 4 with combi meltas and bolt pistols, 2 with power weapons and bolt pistols

10 Wolfguard
drop pod, 4 with combi meltas and bolt pistols, 2 with power weapons and bolt pistols

Heavy Support

6 Longfangs
2 lascannons, 3 heavy bolters, squad leader with plasma gun

6 Longfangs
3 lascannons, 2 heavy bolters

[Cheesegear]

Successor chapters get a differant homeworld, differant recruiting grounds and differant phenotypes.

But the gene-seed - and it's defects - are the same. And the gene-seed is what turns Raven Guard into white skin/black haired psychotics. So, all Raven Guard successors will have white skin and black hair because they have the same Gene-Seed.

I can add to that - if I want, and I do - but, the 'original' flaw has to remain.

I'm sure there are tons of really boring non-mongol White Scars successors.

The 'mongol' part of White Scars isn't inherent in their Gene-Seed. So I'm sure there are.

The only thing codex about his chapter is that it ideally has 10 companies of a hundred marines.

Most (all?) Tactical Marines know how to ride Bikes and pilot Land Speeders. So, White Scars are totally Codex.

Since we actually have to talk about tactics in this thread;

I was thinking at one point of a pure wolf guard list (wolf wing - the terminator armour), but it was basically just grey hunter spam but with less models and grey hunters are good enough on their own.

*List*

Seems to me like horrendous point-sinks across the board. And, easily being around 2000 points - which I don't really play, my limit is around 1750/1850. I'm actually not really a fan of Logan Grimnar, simply because that many units of Wolf Guard isn't necessary as you said so yourself, Grey Hunters are just that good anyway.

[Ricky S]

I was reading through the demonhunters codex that I recently downloaded. Do you follow the rules for weapon in the codex or the current weapons. I was shocked that storm shield's only gave a 4+ invulnerable save against one! attack a turn. The assault cannon was also only heavy 3 with no rending! So what are the rules for using this codex in current editions?
(If this has already been answered please point me to it).

I tried making a tournament worthy list and it is near impossible as they are so expensive! 25 points for a single grey knight? WTF! The space marines have a hard enough time being outnumbered and the grey knights codex makes it even harder. Having a nemisis weapon and storm bolter as standard do not make them anymore difficult to be killed. They are still just space marines with a 3+ save. The only time I can see DH being good is in kill team otherwise they are just too little.

[Cheesegear]

Do you follow the rules for weapon in the codex or the current weapons. I was shocked that storm shield's only gave a 4+ invulnerable save against one! attack a turn. The assault cannon was also only heavy 3 with no rending! So what are the rules for using this codex in current editions?
(If this has already been answered please point me to it).

The rules are that you use the rules in your Codex. Not the rules in someone else's. So, DH Storm Shields are indeed not as good as the current and Assault Cannons aren't that good.

However, it also means that Daemonhunters have different Force Weapons and Psychic Hoods. Wicked awesome Smoke Launchers and a few other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.

I tried making a tournament worthy list and it is near impossible as they are so expensive!

This is not actually news to us.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I tried making a tournament worthy list and it is near impossible as they are so expensive! 25 points for a single grey knight? WTF!

+9 points for +2S, +1WS, effectively +1A, Fearless, Storm Bolters, Aegis, and Shrouding really isn't that bad. Sure, Shrouding isn't that good, but sometimes it helps, and it's really good when it does! Psycannons and Incinerators are also pretty damn good.

Sure, it would be nice if paying extra for all that was an option, but if you want cheap troops you've got Stormtroopers or Inducted Guardsmen.

People who say the Allies rules aren't in the pdf are easily dealt with by buying a codex.

[NecroticPunch]

Um... What does AoBR stand for?

[Ricky S]

Yea I know they get all that cool stuff but it doesnt stop them still being a 1 wound model costing 25 pts. Every single other army will outnumber yours and despite quality supposedly equalling quantity it doesnt work out that way. If it did Imperial guard, nid and ork armies wouldnt be so difficult to beat.

Wow that makes the assault cannon a terrible choice (I wouldnt be taking a dreadnought so the point is moot I guess). The smoke lauchers thing is awesome! Sadface for retarded stormshields. The one really good benefit I can see is with the new wound allocation. You split all the wounds over your inquisitor and henchmen and then take all the wounds off the inquisitor and put them on a henchman due that rule (particular henchman can't be bothered checking). Henchmen die inquisitor is left untouched hurray!

I knew DH was difficult to play with. I just didnt realise how bad it was until I read the codex.

AoBR stands for Assault on Black Reach. Its the starter box set with the rule book, templates, orks and space marines.

[NecroticPunch]

Oh, why on earth can't there be a Tyranid version of that? WHY?!