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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Can I play in the next challenge? It would give me an excuse to get my books out of storage.

  2. - Top - End - #272
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    No, that would ruin the action economy portion of the build because now there isn't a move or swift action "activation" for you to piggyback onto. So, you would defenately pay extra for less standard action activation.
    I do not concur. As per general rule, "Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all" (quote from SRD, underline mine). Since the text implies that you can craft magic items use activated that does not require an action (free action), so you can, in my opinion, do it with stuff you can normally "use" (i.e. "don") as a standar action and a particular class feature allows you to use (i.e. "don") more quickly. RAW is nowhere stated that a wondrous, use activated magic item can not have more than one effect. On the contrary, being magic armors and shields use activated, presence of (say) cold resistence, animated shields tends to go against this reasoning.

    I repeat: I'm perfectly ok with very low elegance votes, I can say that as DM I'll probably have the same reaction and since the beginning my motto was "You can't make an omelet without killing a few people" (N. Gaiman)... You can say "I don't like it and I won't allow it" all the time with my acknowledge, but I don't concur if you say "It doesn't work".


    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    Hey, just a thought. We should make a rule that whomever wins each competition is automatically a judge next time around.

    Thoughts anyone?
    Any position in Iron Chef has its burden. But since it can't go without judges or chairman, I think those two charges should be volunteers.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    re:judge idea; nobody like my idea :( that's ok.

    above: the action economy breaking option was based on the item casting spells on you. According to Magic Item which trumps SRD activation ofspell trigger items default to the casting time of the spell. If it worked the way you propose some wizard would create swannds. Swands have the same crafting costs as wands and are identical to wands in all other ways except they can be triggered as free actions.

    So, I was thinking about something and was wondering how it would fly with people in general if it showed up in a submission. What if a build was playable without cheese but the author had a choice piece of cheese in mind. At the point where the cheese should be introduced they branch the build or present one option as a side note presenting both a cheese lover's and a lactose intolerant version of the appropriate levels? Would you applaud them for being able to fit in at more tables or be upset that they tried to please everyone rather than comiting to a build? Would you read both sides and judge the one more to your taste?

    For the record I mean something relatively simple like one version having craft contingent spell and the other having an extra Metamagic feat or DMM Persist with Nightstick stacking on one side and DMM Quicken without nightstick stacking on the other or Spell Domain vs. Magic Domain. Nothing as extreme as say fast casting on one side and regular casting on the other.

    I see it as kinda saying; I'd ask my DM if this was cool and if it wasn't I'd do this.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    The Vorpal Tribble's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    So basically employing the tactics of my Joker Bard?
    Had you mentioned that, your Power score would have gotten a significant boost. You see, I Judge based on what the contestant presents us, not what is theoretically possible with the build.
    Not read the Joker Bard, but I'll be sure to give more details to the next entry for hype.

    Mind you, I loved the story of Dagger. It was well-written, and entirely plausible. However, this wasn't 'Iron Chef Puppetmasters Optimization Challenge', it was 'Master of Masks'. I will grant that you had awesome synergy going on, even though I wouldn't let a non-good character take exalted feats even if they had a mask which made them look like it superficially, but in your rush to create the perfect puppetmaster, you kind of got sidetracked with your MoM levels.

    The Secret Ingredient was MoM, not Spymaster. That's ultimately what cost you the 1st place trophy.
    Spymaster helped, but the point of it was supposed to be that Dagger's personality and entire being shifted with each change of the mask. They were the only semblance of identity. He was basically trained to be the perfect schizo. The right hand didn't know what the left was doing, except for the knowledge that at certain times it must switch the mask.

    Wasn't trying to create the perfect puppetmaster, but the perfect puppet.

  5. - Top - End - #275
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    above: the action economy breaking option was based on the item casting spells on you. According to Magic Item which trumps SRD activation ofspell trigger items default to the casting time of the spell. If it worked the way you propose some wizard would create swannds. Swands have the same crafting costs as wands and are identical to wands in all other ways except they can be triggered as free actions.
    First of all, I think this discussion is appassionating and frank. If you feel it like something grudging, abusive or annoying, just tell me and I'll quit

    That said, I don't think Magic Item Compendium trumps SRD. I'm reasonably sure that MIC does not trump core (that exact rule, my exact quote is on page 213 of DMG). Besides, you can't compare the two books in terms of activation modes: DMG has spell completion, spell trigger, command word and use activation; MIC has command, manipulation, mental, spell completion and spell trigger.
    So, it is impossible to use magic item crafting table of DMG with MIC activations.

    Besides, no mage can craft a swand, because "Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity" (same page 213 of DMG). So, you can't pimp your wand, because the text is clear and clearly implies that you can only use a wand as a standard action, no matter even what the spell casting time is (this is why you don't see Celerity wands).

    Not to repeat myself: Seera's masks are magic use activated items (legal) that, where donned (usually a standard action) emulate a spell. It is not the item that changes, it is the ability of MoM to swich masks that changes.
    It is like a PrC for mages or a base class (Artificer for example?) has a class features that allows you, exceptionally, to activate a wand like a swift action. You can say "rubbish, too broken, not at my table" which all are possibile reactions. If you say "in spite of rule as written, it does not work"... Well, I don't concur

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Just to step in here, there's no clear overarching authoritative text on magic item crafting. The important 3 are the MIC, the Rules Compendium (which changed the rules for wands to allow swift action wands), and the SRD/Core. In order of recent to oldest, it's RC > MIC > SRD (Right?), but then again the SRD is usually the core source when rules collide with each other.

    In the end, this kind of magic item is invariably going to require case-by-case DM management. I think Ingus has a good argument for why it works, personally, but as Hand_of_Vecna pointed out, there's a clear reason why it shouldn't work because otherwise everyone would do it, just like having a Ring of Continuous True Strike or a Ring of Cure Light Wounds. In this case I think specific beats general rule from MIC - the masks have a specific way they work that is different from other magic items. What happens when a new property is added to a mask is anyone's guess.

    Regarding your second idea Hand_of_Vecna, just include the alternate feat selection at the end of the build, like some contestants do with flaws and whatnot. I always try to list the alternate builds I came up with along the journey to the final dish
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Private-Prinny's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    As a final congratulations to our winners, I present the trophies, courtesy of the amazing Strategos.


    http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...GoldDraz74.png


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    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  8. - Top - End - #278
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    true_shinken's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Congrats, guys! Well done!

    I wonder what is the next secret ingredient...

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Congrats, guys! Well done!

    I wonder what is the next secret ingredient...
    It's already posted.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    true_shinken's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    It's already posted.
    Can't believe I missed it. Thanks!

  11. - Top - End - #281
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Thanx to Strategos. Now, finally, his/her form of art is shown in my personal desktop


    @Akal Saris: Shame on you! How can someone possibly want a ring of True Strike?!?
    ... Surge of Fortune is better
    Last edited by Ingus; 2010-07-03 at 07:34 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Given the commentary you made on Keiji, I am curious if his use of BoED material was deleterious to Dagger's score?
    Well, he took Exalted feats that he did not really qualify for, since the character's alignment was not Good. I don't feel that the Mask which lets him register as Good would qualify him, as it is merely altering people's perceptions, and a Feat is based on your actual character, not merely on what he looks like. Thus it was an illegal feat choice, which ultimately hurt him in the Elegance score.

    Keiji's biggest problem is that MoM did nothing for him. I don't see why he bothered with MoM when he could simply have continued going on with Apostle of Peace. He gained literally nothing in exchange for going into MoM. He didn't really use and benefit from the PrC. And, of course, using well-known cheese also hurts Elegance quite a bit.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Tossing the previous disagreements aside.

    Akal, I've never thought of SRD as being a published book and as simply being the OGL material printed online. I consider it to be = with core, the same as if it was just a later printrun of the core books.

    *totally serious and not trying to sound like an ass* Can you present any evidence to the contrary?

  14. - Top - End - #284
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post

    Akal, I've never thought of SRD as being a published book and as simply being the OGL material printed online. I consider it to be = with core, the same as if it was just a later printrun of the core books.

    *totally serious and not trying to sound like an ass* Can you present any evidence to the contrary?
    Disclaimer: Akal probably has his own opinions, and the request, as stated, is to prove a negative - a famously difficult task.

    The SRD is often not counted as Core because it includes alternate rules from the XPH and UA. The books that encompass the basic rules with which folks can play D&D 3.5 are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual 1. Some of the things generally considered necessary to play, like Experience Points for leveling up and certain iconic monsters, are included somewhere in those three books but not named in the SRD. Similarly, the Expanded Psionics Handbook and, especially, Unearthed Arcana are optional rules which can enhance play for some groups but are certainly not at the 'core' of the game.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV.

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  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Yeah, SRD = Core, but personally I love the SRD website with its terrific layout and in-site dice roller, so I refer to it almost exclusively over my core books.

    As a sidenote, I totally have trophy envy now. That MoM trophy looks absolutely fantastic!
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
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    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

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