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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I just looked through the class again, and felt the need to point this out. You can only wear one persona mask at a time, and the capstone is just putting on another mask and switching as an immediate action. Besides, if you get the benefits of 2 masks at the same time, what would your alignment be?

    Is there another version of Master of Masks that you might be thinking of?
    Ahh, I had mis-remembered. Looking back at the class, I see it is even less useful than I originally recalled. You have multiple, mutually exclusive, minor benefits.

    It has LESS than 1/2 casting, which is already made of fail, and the masks themselves generally don't have too many uses. Gladiator and Assassin are the only two I see as remotely viable as a one-level dip, either for more sneak attack or for EWP: Yes.

    Mask Specialist gives a minor bonus to other magical masks. But you can't wear persona masks with other masks, so again, mutually exclusive benefits.

    It personifies the quote: "Jack of all trades, master of none". It'll be interesting to see how people use this weakness as a strength in their builds.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Originality: Is this a clone of a well-known build? Most specifically, can I say 'this is a {x} build with y tacked on'? Or "Yea, I was really expecting this to come out" or "Wow, four others also used this combination...". The most obvious entry method is not always the most original, and everyone can hurt each other's scores by having multiple independently created exceedingly similar builds. All builds similar will be marked down in this category.
    I've seen judges mention this in past challenges, and I understand why you would think that way, but I've always thought it a little unfair. Is it the fault of the competitors if two of them - independently of each other - come up with a similar idea? Even if, under other circumstances, the idea is creative?

    To give an example, in the Cancer Mage challenge, someone used a Psion as the entry class. Several of the judges said that was a really creative idea. But if someone else had used a Psion, would that person - who got good marks for creativity - suddenly get low marks because "well, someone else did it, so it must not have been all that original after all?"
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    I've seen judges mention this in past challenges, and I understand why you would think that way, but I've always thought it a little unfair. Is it the fault of the competitors if two of them - independently of each other - come up with a similar idea? Even if, under other circumstances, the idea is creative?

    To give an example, in the Cancer Mage challenge, someone used a Psion as the entry class. Several of the judges said that was a really creative idea. But if someone else had used a Psion, would that person - who got good marks for creativity - suddenly get low marks because "well, someone else did it, so it must not have been all that original after all?"
    If both builds used Psion in the same way, then yes, both would take a hit from this. Just like MY build in that particular competition was marked down because there were other rangers and other warlocks.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    If both builds used Psion in the same way, then yes, both would take a hit from this. Just like MY build in that particular competition was marked down because there were other rangers and other warlocks.
    And that leads back to my opinion... If a build is original, it is original. If people were talking about possible builds in the thread (prior to the cut-off) and then someone submitted a build like one discussed in the thread, that shows low creativity (even if the person did come up with it on their own). In this case, there's no discussion, so penalizing people because they happened to think like someone else seems unfair. It isn't the competitor's fault that someone else came up with a similar idea.

    I guess what I am saying is why not judge each entry on its own merits, rather than against each other?
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    And that leads back to my opinion... If a build is original, it is original. If people were talking about possible builds in the thread (prior to the cut-off) and then someone submitted a build like one discussed in the thread, that shows low creativity (even if the person did come up with it on their own). In this case, there's no discussion, so penalizing people because they happened to think like someone else seems unfair. It isn't the competitor's fault that someone else came up with a similar idea.

    I guess what I am saying is why not judge each entry on its own merits, rather than against each other?
    Because it is not an individual contest.

    Let me try to put it this way: The Olympics judges almost never give a 10 to the first person up. This is simply because they don't know if someone else later on would deserve that perfect score, and would have been better than that first person up.

    Likewise, I must judge entries not only of their own merit, but how they stack up against one another. If an entry is much better in a certain quality, then it must, logically, have a higher score. Which means the lower quality entry will not have a 5 in that score, guaranteed. Because they aren't the best at it.

    This is why talking about builds and theorizing about potential builds is prohibited in this thread. Because it hurts the Creativity score if someone uses an idea posted here.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-06-20 at 10:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    And that leads back to my opinion... If a build is original, it is original. If people were talking about possible builds in the thread (prior to the cut-off) and then someone submitted a build like one discussed in the thread, that shows low creativity (even if the person did come up with it on their own). In this case, there's no discussion, so penalizing people because they happened to think like someone else seems unfair. It isn't the competitor's fault that someone else came up with a similar idea.

    I guess what I am saying is why not judge each entry on its own merits, rather than against each other?
    In my eyes, the "multiple competitors using the same idea" thing should really only serve as validation for taking points off for obvious concepts.

    It shouldn't be "Two other people did it, so I'm taking a point off," it should be "I'm taking a point off. When you see these other two, it seems really obvious in retrospect."
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    In my eyes, the "multiple competitors using the same idea" thing should really only serve as validation for taking points off for obvious concepts.

    It shouldn't be "Two other people did it, so I'm taking a point off," it should be "I'm taking a point off. When you see these other two, it seems really obvious in retrospect."
    This.

    If several people came up with the idea, then it probably wasn't a very original idea to begin with.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    This.

    If several people came up with the idea, then it probably wasn't a very original idea to begin with.
    Yuppers. That's my take on it as well.

    Also, I swear, if we see Factotum 10/Master of Masks 10, they're getting nothing but 0's across the board. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Yuppers. That's my take on it as well.

    Also, I swear, if we see Factotum 10/Master of Masks 10, they're getting nothing but 0's across the board. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
    Except for power. They might get as much as a 2 there.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    Except for power. They might get as much as a 2 there.
    I am giving all 0's Factotum 10/MoM 10. I'll also come punch you in the face for being a failure.

    YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WARNED.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    I am giving all 0's Factotum 10/MoM 10. I'll also come punch you in the face for being a failure.

    YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WARNED.
    *grumbles and starts a different idea*
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    *furiously tries to come up with a way to make a new and interesting factotum 10/MoM 10*
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I've had some contestants PM me about what books are allowed. Since I'd like to keep things as clear cut as possible, I'm asking the judges what they think.

    Savage Species
    Dragon Compendium

    Yea or Nay?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I've had some contestants PM me about what books are allowed. Since I'd like to keep things as clear cut as possible, I'm asking the judges what they think.

    Savage Species
    Dragon Compendium

    Yea or Nay?
    As long as you don't use SS for the two or three cheese items there, I don't care. (Feral template, Anthropomorphic animal creation rules, and the feat that turns a SP into a SU being the big three)

    Dragon Compendium I do not consider to be a WotC sourcebook, but rather a conglomeration of fan-made homebrew.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    @PrivatePenny: I don't think Chameleon would be a good choice for Iron Chef, if you want to keep it to neglected, underpowered PrC flavour. If someone put it in stocks for any contest, however, I sign in for judge in advance (having stated an entire camarilla of chameleons, I think I'm qualified )


    In any case, I sign in as a contestant. Hope to come with something good.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Can I enter with a new spin on Haberdash, or is that cheating, since I literally wrote the handbook on Master of Masks? Or maybe it would be more appropriate for me to be a judge?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I actually have no issues with the Dragon Compendium. It is technically an official book, thanks to having the WotC logo all over it.

    Savage Species, eh, as long as you don't make me weep from broken stuff, it's fine as well.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    To the common utility, the secret ingredient on WotC.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I've had some contestants PM me about what books are allowed. Since I'd like to keep things as clear cut as possible, I'm asking the judges what they think.

    Savage Species
    Dragon Compendium

    Yea or Nay?
    I'd follow the prior ruling on DC: the compendium is in, but it you use elements that are out of step with the less questionable books, you'll likely take a hit in elegance.

    On Savage Species: I have no problem with the book in general. It is a 3.0 book, so in some cases attention might be needed to updating. There are a couple elements therein that would follow the general rule for cheese: if you're not presenting a very original and very innovative new TO exercise, you should probably avoid the kind of cheese that will often be outright banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Can I enter with a new spin on Haberdash, or is that cheating, since I literally wrote the handbook on Master of Masks? Or maybe it would be more appropriate for me to be a judge?
    (Disclaimer: I am not the chairman-- I'm just re-posting the relevant answers from the last time this came up).
    All builds are submitted anonymously: the judges don't know (and should not attempt to know) if it's you or someone else submitting a revision of one of your prior creations. If you don't feel you can create an adequate entry that is both a substantial improvement and is substantially different from your existing work on the character, judging may be a good option.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-06-21 at 10:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I'm in to judge or compete.

    I'll second? third? fourth? that Chameleon would be a horrible class for IC. Chameleon is one of the best PrCs. Not in terms of overall power (though a X 5/ Chameleon 10/ X5 is pretty much automatically high tier 3, so it could be considered "best" in terms of power) but, in that it does exactly what a PrC should. A chameleon 10 has a desireable combination of abilities which can't be gained elsewhere, which is exactly what a PrC should have.

    Lower tier entries are boosted and higher tier entries are nerfed.

    MoM will be an interesting ingredient though. My main beef with the class (aside from it being chameloen/factotem's weaker cousin) is it's class skill list. There are alot of skills I'd like a Jack of all trades to have that aren't on it. Of course certain masks give bonuses but you'll need a more solid base than than left over ranks from level 1-5 to meet level appropriate DC's.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Can I enter with a new spin on Haberdash, or is that cheating, since I literally wrote the handbook on Master of Masks? Or maybe it would be more appropriate for me to be a judge?
    I think you, and you alone, should be allowed to enter a Haberdash clone without taking massive penalties to Originality.

    But then, I am not a judge here.

    Also, I imagine Haberdash as-is would score very poorly on Use of Secret Ingredient. I'm interested to see what you could do to increase that, though.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I'm fine with Savage Species and Dragon Compendium. I look forward to the anthropomorphic squid sha'ir/Master of Masks. I think I can see what DC class the contestant was interested in though, and I approve.

    Person_Man, you wrote the book on the Master of Masks, there has to be more than 1 trick you can do with one. I expect at least half the competitors to pick up gladiator mask really.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I shall try to create some sort of functional entry. I have a decent plan, I think... part of it may be obvious, though.

    GODDAMN COMPETENCE BONUSES ARGH. Needs replanning.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-06-21 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    I'm fine with Savage Species and Dragon Compendium. I look forward to the anthropomorphic squid sha'ir/Master of Masks. I think I can see what DC class the contestant was interested in though, and I approve.
    It's preeeeetty obvious as a choice: Mountebank, DURR. I mean, what else could there be? Obvious joke is obviously terrible.

    Person_Man, you wrote the book on the Master of Masks, there has to be more than 1 trick you can do with one. I expect at least half the competitors to pick up gladiator mask really.
    On the topic of Haberdash... actually, that build is WHY Factotum/MoM will score poorly from me: because Haberdash did it better. Yes, he only uses one level of MoM, and that's the trick. If you do a Factotum 10/MoM 10, it says to be "I liked Haberdash, but needed more levels of MoM, so I just took it to 10", which doesn't speak well for that individual. Personally, I'd love to see you do something more creative with MoM. Haberdash is great and everything, but let's leave him lie.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    On the topic of Haberdash... actually, that build is WHY Factotum/MoM will score poorly from me: because Haberdash did it better. Yes, he only uses one level of MoM, and that's the trick. If you do a Factotum 10/MoM 10, it says to be "I liked Haberdash, but needed more levels of MoM, so I just took it to 10", which doesn't speak well for that individual. Personally, I'd love to see you do something more creative with MoM. Haberdash is great and everything, but let's leave him lie.
    Fair enough. If I had held my tongue and not posted Haberdash, I probably could have won this challenge by using him. But since he's essentially the default Master of Masks build at this point, there's no originality to using him. It's sorta like every mob movie after The Godfather. I watched it with a teenage cousin not long ago, and he hated it. "Totally cliche, especially the dialog." Of course, The Godfather INVENTED half of the mobster tropes. But no one watching it for the first time will know that unless they researched the topic beforehand.

    I'll see if I can come up with something different. But there's not a lot to work with.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Actually, I don't think you'd manage to sneak Haberdash by us. We sorta all know and love Haberdash. Along with a few other builds of yours, you kinda have a reputation with him (Flaming Homer is the other build of yours that I always think of when I read your posts).

    I have faith though that there's some other creative things that can be done with Master of Masks.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    So the judges have agreed that both SS and DC are in, but one misstep will cost you some Elegance? Sounds good to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    (Disclaimer: I am not the chairman-- I'm just re-posting the relevant answers from the last time this came up).
    All builds are submitted anonymously: the judges don't know (and should not attempt to know) if it's you or someone else submitting a revision of one of your prior creations. If you don't feel you can create an adequate entry that is both a substantial improvement and is substantially different from your existing work on the character, judging may be a good option.
    Bingo. Person_Man, if you jump in with a Haberdash derivative, then everyone will know it's you, and I may not be able to allow it. Also, the last judging slot goes to Hand_of_Vecna if you don't want it, so speak up if you want to judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    I'll second? third? fourth? that Chameleon would be a horrible class for IC. Chameleon is one of the best PrCs. Not in terms of overall power (though a X 5/ Chameleon 10/ X5 is pretty much automatically high tier 3, so it could be considered "best" in terms of power) but, in that it does exactly what a PrC should. A chameleon 10 has a desireable combination of abilities which can't be gained elsewhere, which is exactly what a PrC should have.
    I personally must disagree with the notion that a class has to be weak to be a flavorful Secret Ingredient, as it smells faintly of Stormwind. Sometimes you have to work with cow tongue, but sometimes you get beef.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Cow tongue is tasty though....

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Unexpected glitch: figuring out how to explain a weird Master of Masks build within the character limits of a single post.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I personally must disagree with the notion that a class has to be weak to be a flavorful Secret Ingredient, as it smells faintly of Stormwind. Sometimes you have to work with cow tongue, but sometimes you get beef.
    If you really want to put a Chameleon in for next secret ingredient (you or everyone else) I sign-in already for the judging place. My favourite character ever was a chameleon and contestants will have to work hard in order to improve it.


    Back on topic, I spotted a couple of very, very, very good dynamics in Master of Masks. Totally unexpectedly, he could be on par. Maybe even slightly up, in some level.

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