Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 211 to 240 of 285
  1. - Top - End - #211
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI


  2. - Top - End - #212
    Banned
     
    The Vorpal Tribble's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Mindfields
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    Green Star Adept. Open your Complete Arcane to page 41 and gaze upon the horror.
    Actually, was gonna use that PrC in my Stonelord build that I never had time to finish.

    May not be fantastic, but it's fun.

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    phhhfff... green star adept
    Should do Great Sea corsair, nobody will have any clue what it is.... and that's only half the fun
    School in session.
    "A true blaster bard is one who uses a Pipe Organ and vocals combo with Stormsinger and Seeker of the Song. This is a Bard based blaster."?
    - Ratflail

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Heliomance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I have some half-formed ideas for GSA, if it comes up I'll check if they'll work or not.
    Quotebox
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by hotel_papa View Post
    I maintain that until I see a movie trailer where Patrick Stewart introduces himself as Mordenkainen, there never was and never will be a D&D movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by dixieboy View Post
    I am unable to respond due to the awesomness of seducing a god, sorry
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.

    Avatar by asdflove

    Wish building characters for D&D 3.5 was simpler? Try HeroForge Anew! An Excel-based, highly automated character builder.

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Well, I know very well the Green Star Adept and I really tink you can put a great gish out of it. If there will be any contest with GSA, I'll post you in evaluation after the contest the build one of my players is actually playing. I can assure you it is broken: I usually think twice before letting any NPC enemy go close of him, and if I do, is because the other party members are strong as well

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I have a good idea as well.

    Inquiry: Can we use UA variant Fractional Saves/BAB?

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Heliomance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingus View Post
    Well, I know very well the Green Star Adept and I really tink you can put a great gish out of it. If there will be any contest with GSA, I'll post you in evaluation after the contest the build one of my players is actually playing. I can assure you it is broken: I usually think twice before letting any NPC enemy go close of him, and if I do, is because the other party members are strong as well
    The thing is, the capstone is a horrible nerf. You lose your con score, thus your fort save tanks and so do your hitpoints. This is a Bad Thing for a gish. Also you are no longer a valid target for Enlarge Person. This is another Bad Thing.
    Last edited by Heliomance; 2010-06-29 at 07:12 PM.
    Quotebox
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by hotel_papa View Post
    I maintain that until I see a movie trailer where Patrick Stewart introduces himself as Mordenkainen, there never was and never will be a D&D movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by dixieboy View Post
    I am unable to respond due to the awesomness of seducing a god, sorry
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.

    Avatar by asdflove

    Wish building characters for D&D 3.5 was simpler? Try HeroForge Anew! An Excel-based, highly automated character builder.

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Akal Saris's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    The thing is, the capstone is a horrible nerf. You lose your con score, thus your fort save tanks and so do your hitpoints. This is a Bad Thing for a gish. Also you are no longer a valid target for Enlarge Person. This is another Bad Thing.
    And that's in addition to the class being actively worse than other gish PrCs. It's a d8 with 3/4 BAB and only will as a good save - that's worse than a cleric!
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

    Trophies!
    Spoiler
    Show

    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

  9. - Top - End - #219
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amphetryon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I'll be amused if all this speculation is about the wrong PrC.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV.

    Who made my awesome Dwarf Hexblade avatar, you ask? BRC did!
    Spoiler
    Show

  10. - Top - End - #220
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Private-Prinny's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I'll be amused if all this speculation is about the wrong PrC.
    TBH, I haven't picked the next Secret Ingredient yet. I just know that I'm going to pick a 1/2 casting class.
    Quotebox
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  11. - Top - End - #221
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    And that's in addition to the class being actively worse than other gish PrCs. It's a d8 with 3/4 BAB and only will as a good save - that's worse than a cleric!
    It does get an added spellcaster level increase, though. It's fun when coupled with Martial Arcanist, illumian sigils and the like.
    In my Master Spellthief mini-guide, there is a Green Star Adept with caster level 45, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    TBH, I haven't picked the next Secret Ingredient yet. I just know that I'm going to pick a 1/2 casting class.
    Those are very fun, I approve!
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-06-29 at 09:22 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Il_Vec's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by theos911 View Post
    phhhfff... green star adept
    Should do Great Sea corsair, nobody will have any clue what it is.... and that's only half the fun
    That is what, from stormwrack?
    Inner fear is your only enemy.

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Il_Vec View Post
    That is what, from stormwrack?
    No, it's from Shining South, a FR book (It's also the title of a 2nd edition sub-campaign setting for FR). Except, if I recall, it's really just a dread pirate substitution level.

    Edit: Actually, the 2nd edition was Corsairs of the Great Sea

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    The idea of the level breakdowns is so that you make a build that's playable at all levels. A lot of level 20 builds are rubbish until they hit 20 and everything suddenly falls into place. The idea behind this contest is that your character be playable all the way from 1 to 20.
    Then why do we only require presentation at "at least one" of the given levels? I'd always assumed that a build that was presented at, say, level 15 (and only 15) would be a valid entry.

    P.S.: and back to work on the scoring.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-06-30 at 03:27 AM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
    Spoiler
    Show

  14. - Top - End - #224
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    No, it's from Shining South, a FR book (It the title of a 2nd edition sub-campaign setting for FR). Except, if I recall, it's really just a dread pirate substitution level.

    Edit: Actually, the 2nd edition was Corsairs of the Great Sea
    1. shh.. your gonna ruin the secret

    2.that's funny,lol, it really is
    School in session.
    "A true blaster bard is one who uses a Pipe Organ and vocals combo with Stormsinger and Seeker of the Song. This is a Bard based blaster."?
    - Ratflail

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Apr 2009

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Green Star Adept is kinda okay... I guess. It's capstone is one of the few non-evil ways of becoming effectively immortal (not that anyone cares about that) other than begging to become an Einherjar. (Or Einheriar, if you hate soft Js)

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    SCORES!!!

    First off, a note: While I've actually given a few 5s out (I was expecting maybe one, so this was a pleasent surprise), I have noticed that the lower range of my scores is lower than most of the other judges. This is not intended as a slight against the contestants, but rather an indication that I've structured my rubric differently.

    Scoring Details
    Spoiler
    Show

    While a great deal of the scoring will be ad hoc, I have done my best to delineate those elements and indicate how I scored them. Moreover, each category has at least some scoring elements common to how I scored all builds:

    The default score, before these adjustments are made, is 3.

    Originality:
    Spoiler
    Show
    • A kind of build I expected to see will loose .5 points (I expected primarily gishes and skill monkies-- particularly with social and stealth skills as a focus)
    • A specific build I expected to see will loose 1 point (I expected a spymaster and a chameleon)
    • A particularly unexpected build will net .5 points.
    • A kind of build I specifically expected not to see will net 1 point (In particular, I didn't expect to see either builds with no casting or builds with more than 4th level spells, except from an alternate full caster).
    • A iteration of a common, specific CharOp Concept will loose 1 point.
    • A particularly innovative qualification method for MoM will net 1/2 a point.
    • While an expected qualification won't itself be penalized, a 1 level factotum dip is so spectacularly expected that it will loose you 1/2 a point (even though other expected dips like rogue and bard will not).


    Power:
    Spoiler
    Show
    I framed this in two broad elements:
    • First, given the most dominant non-MoM element of the build presented (full caster, gish, melee, ranged, skill monkey, etc), what tier would I expect this build to fall in. Since in routine play a 4/10 caster class will likely end up at 3 or 4, I awarded .5 points for each tier above 3 and deducted .5 for each tier below 4.
    • Second, I looked at whether the innovation and synergies of the build presented exceeded (or failed to meet) the expectations for such a build. A significant gain or loss of less than a tier or movement from the lower/upper margin of one tier to another is worth half a point. A gain or loss of a whole tier or more is worth a point.


    Elegance:
    Spoiler
    Show
    • Fitting the build to the story well (or poorly) is worth 1/2 a point.
    • A build that progresses in a particularly consistent manner is worth 1/2 a point-- not necessarily all one class then all another, but such that it gives the impression that the breaks or patterns represent something.


    Use of Special Ingredient:
    Spoiler
    Show
    • Using 9 or 10 levels will net you 1/2 a point.
    • Using 5 or fewer levels will loose you 1 point.
    • Using only 1 level (would have) earned minimum points.
    • A build that gains significantly from MoM nets a default of 1/2 a point (possibly more).
    • A build that where MoM is central to the build (such that it could not reasonably be replaced) nets 1 point.
    • A build that would significantly benefit from fewer levels of MoM looses at least 1/2 a point.



    Jereth: 15.5 (avg 3.875)
    Spoiler
    Show

    Originality: 3
    • It's a social obfuscation/stealth build. I was expecting to see at least one of these-we saw 2 (-.5).
    • Assassin for the casting advancement was unexpected (+.5)


    Power: 3.5
    • This isn't a particularly powerful build in the grand scheme of 3.5 CharOp. Essentially, you set a low goal: this kind of character is usually tier 4. (+0)
    • Despite this, you've created a character that's slightly better than that-- probably a very high tier 4 or a weak tier 3. (+.5)

    Elegance: 4.5
    • The build fits the back story well, but moreover it creates the impression that either the build or the story could have been created first and the other built to that effect (+1).
    • Moreover, the story itself would make a good addition to the campaign world (and since it is structured to resemble rumor, it would be easy to introduce for a villain)(+.5).

    Use of Special Ingredient: 4.5
    • You take 10 levels (+.5).
    • You also have a character build that is heavily centered on MoM (+1).



    Shen: 13 (3.25)
    Spoiler
    Show

    Originality: 3
    • It's a gish: a good standby, but not particularly innovative (especially since you use Abjurant Champion to accomplish it), and moreover somewhat expected when dealing with a 4/10 casting prc. (-.5)
    • The qualification for MoM, however, represents a creative solution to the problem the secret ingredient presents for gish characters (I was expecting to see gish entries drop to a rogue-level BAB class to enter). That will gain you half a point. (+.5)


    Power: 3
    • You're aiming for a gish which is generally a very high tier 3 or a very low tier 2. This one strikes me as a high 3. You're not setting the bar particularly high or low, nor are you failing to meet or particularly exceeding that bar. (+0)


    Elegance: 3.5
    • There are no elements that glare out at me as questionable. The build fits the story, but the story is wide enough that that's not particularly impressive. (0)
    • It does, however, progress in a fairly consistent manner, which is worth 1/2 a point. (+.5)


    Use of Special Ingredient: 3.5
    • You take all 10 levels (+.5).
    • You also benefit significantly from the presence of Master of Masks in the build. (+.5)
    • However, the build would probably be better off without the full 10 levels-- there are several lower break points that the character would benefit from using if they were actually being played. (-.5)


    The Masquerade : 10 (2.5)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality: 1.5
    • It's in iteration of a shock trooper build, one of the more well defined existing builds (-1).
    • It's a melee build for which the primary interest in the class is from the gladiator mask and uses one the heavily expected entries to meet the skill requirements. While I'm not scoring off for either of these in isolation, both of them together seem significant enough to warrant a deduction (-.5)

    Power: 2.5
    • The build is primarily a shock trooper. That's usually a high tier 5. That sets the bar fairly low (-.5).
    • Your capacity as a primary melee is going to suffer from the fact that you're loosing a significant amount of BAB and HP from Bard and MoM (-.5).
    • Moreover, the build has no particular mechanical synergy between classes that I've noticed (and none that you present). (-.5)
    • The variety of abilities available through the masks, however, will likely knock this build up to a high tier 4 (if you were getting the masks a bit earlier, there might even be a point when the bredth of your SLAs and bard casting would qualify as a very low tier 3-- but since you're delaying MoM until 10, bard casting and the SLAs of your masks will not likely be able to handle an encounter outright if it is significantly outside your area of expertise). None the less, this is a significant gain in ability for a shock trooper build (+1).

    Elegance: 3
    • To start with, you stay well within Core+Completes, which is likely to please Joe McDM: this is a fairly parsimonious option, and it will net you 1/2 a point (+.5).
    • It progresses in a consistant manner (+.5).
    • The presentation, however, is fairly bare bones: we don't even have a presentation of important spells you select with your bard casting. That leaves a lot of room for the reader to screw up the build, and will cost you a full point. (-1)


    Use of Special Ingredient: 3
    • Master of masks does give a significant boost in your utility (+1)
    • It does so, however, at a significant cost to your primary focus (-.5).
    • The basic mechanical build is probably done better with fewer levels of MoM, if any at all. (-1)
    • You used all 10 levels. (+.5)



    Seera: 16 (4)
    Spoiler
    Show

    Originality: 4.5
    • I actively wasn't expecting a heavy casting submission other than bard and perhaps cleric, so you surprised me there. (+1).
    • You also created an innovative new optimization option for the highlighted class (+1).
    • However, the custom magic item concept and artificer in conjunction isn't particularly new: the solution, while innovative, follows closely from the existing CharOp work that has been done on Artificer(.-5)


    Power: 5
    • Artificer set's the expectations fairly high: the base expectation for this build is a Tier 1 caster that has lost 6 caster levels (+1).
    • You exceed that expectation (+.5).
    • I'm also awarding additional points because I think this is likely the most powerful possible use of 10 MoM levels. (+.5)


    Elegance: 1.5
    • You're using custom item creation, which explicitly requires DM adjudication (-.5)
    • It's also an element that is easily breakable, which may result in an outright ban. (-.5)
    • Moreover, I would expect that there's a decent chance that if Joe McDM is on the conservative side, he would simply say no to this specific build (-5). I would grade off more for this if it didn't overlap so much with the other deductions.


    As a side note, I did like the story: it's well written, and one of the better backstories I've recently read. The distinction here between your story and the one for Jereth is that I feel his (largely do to structure) could add to the campaign world independent of the character presented. Please do not take it as a slight to your story-telling capacity.

    Use of Special Ingredient: 5
    • You make use of all 10 levels (+.5)
    • The special ingredient is highly central to the build (+1)
    • You have added a significant innovation to the use of the class as a whole. (+.5-- I would do +1, but we're at the point cap for the category).


    Keiji: 14 (3.5)
    Spoiler
    Show

    Originality: 4
    • I was not expecting Monk/Ninja for MoM qualification (+.5)
    • I was not expecting a AoP character (+.5)

    Power: 4
    • While I would put most alternate full casters at Tier 1 (though perhaps on the low side because of limited Spells/Day), the restricted list and Vow restrictions of Apostle would incline me to place it as a high tier 2. I am, however, going to err on the side of tier 1: in the absence of DM adjudication an using the to bypass your vows, you still have X Planar Ally and Miracle. (+1)
    • You seem reach about the point expected too, so no gains or losses there. (0)


    Elegance: 3.5
    • The back story works well to combine ninja and monk (+.5)


    I would have scored higher if the Monk/Ninja levels there in were more ordered (or if there were story presentation as to why they are in the order given). As is, it neither fits well for being a student at both dojos at the same time (which would lend itself to alternating levels) or to being a student at one then later the other (ninja to 3 then monk to 4, or the reverse). Neither of those work out numerically with your build. I'm sure other interpretations are possible, but haven't given any interpretation here, so it sticks out a bit.

    Use of Special Ingredient: 2.5
    • You use 9 levels of MoM (+.5)
    • While the build makes reasonable use of the casting progression and some use of the masks, there doesn't seem enough to actually warrant using MoM (either thematically or mechanically). You could take 4 more levels of AoP and 5 levels in monk or ninja and probably end up close to even. (-1)



    The Faceless: 13.5 (3.375)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality: 1.5
    • 1 level factotum dip for qualification (-.5)
    • Chameleon was expected (-1)

    (Actually, I expected Factotum 1/Pact-user, Incarnum-user, or initiator 4/ Chameleon and Master of Masks alternating, so I was slightly off).

    Power: 4.5
    • The most dominant element of this build other than MoM is Chameleon, which is a solid tier 2. (+.5)
    • The choice of focusing on Incarnum classes before MoM/Chameleon entry will improve over that (though still not reach into tier 1) since they scale well with other levels. (+.5)
    • Moreover, you gave particular attention to making the MoM/Chameleon section progress in a smooth a manner as possible from a power prespective. (+.5)


    Elegance: 4
    • While it is an expected path, I don't think that chameleon is a bad option. MoM is in an awkward place between a generalist and a serial specialist. Pairing it with Chameleon, a serial specialist, not only works very well mechanically, but fits well with the core theme of flexibility the makes Master of Masks what it is. (+1)
    • The character as presented is not merely anonymous: it is anonymity. This fits well with the idea of incarnum working as the embodiment of concept and with the flavor of Master of Masks itself. (+.5)
    • The use of both Incarnate and Totemist grates a tad: because of the heavy flavor of Incarnum as a power system, these two classes end up fairly thematically similar. Without any attention to differentiate or unify them (ether through story and/or structuring the progression), they are stuck in an awkward state of in-between. (-.5)
    • The same can be said of the MoM/Chamelion progression, but I'm not scoring you off twice for it.


    Use of Special Ingredient: 3.5
    • While Master of Masks brings significant benefit to this build. (+.5)
    • You could reasonably replace at least some of the MoM levels with more Chameleon levels, but I don't believe the build suffers for not doing so.



    Dagger: 15 (3.75)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality: 2.5
    • I was specifically expecting a spylord build: the cover-identities fit well with the theme of Master of Masks. (-1)
    • 1 level factotum dip for skill requirements (-.5)
    • I wasn't expecting to see Archivist: I did expect some primary caster at level 4 or 5, I was betting on cleric if it came up. (+.5)
    • I was not expecting living construct, and the story you used to present it fits well. (+.5)


    Power: 3.5
    • The most dominant element of the build other than MoM is Spymaster. This defaults to a tier 4-- essentially a more specialized rogue. It's about the default power level I presume a MoM build aims for. (0)
    • Between the archivist casting and the MoM abilities, you're going this basic expectation, but not my much. The delay in spells is going to mean the character doesn't quite reach tier 3 once you get into the mid-levels and beyond, but it will always be a very high tier 4. (+.5)


    Elegance: 5
    • The Spylord and Master of Masks fit well thematically. There is a reason I was expecting it. (+.5)
    • The VoP is somewhat questionable by your own admission ("borderline"). It is, however, something that most DMs are quite willing to modify. (-.5)
    • The use of living construct fits the character concept very well(+.5)
    • The truename obscuring feats fit the character concept very well (+.5)
    • The build fits the story well: I could imaging wanting to play this character, and MoM seems a natural way to build such a character (+.5)
    • With the alternation of classes fits well with the presented concept of the persona masks and cover identities filling the same conceptual role. (+.5)


    Use of Special Ingredient: 4
    • While the character could probably be build without MoM, it benefits immensely from its presence themetically, and to a reasonable degree mechanically. (+1)



    Tanitha: 11 (2.75)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality: 2.5
    • It's a little bit of gish and a little bit of skill monkey: pretty much the default for the Master of masks class. (-.5)


    Power: 2.5
    • Not so much as you think, mostly because casting advancement doesn't work quite the way you think . Don't feel too bad about it though, I personally made a much bigger stack of errors in another competition recently.
    • After level 5 or so, the basic assumption for such a build is tier 4, so no bonus or penalty on score here. (0)
    • You end up more or less in tier 4, so right on the mark. Again, no bonus or penalty. (0)
    • You do however, take a dip into assassin that is, from a power perspective, untenable. While I am always a fan of taking a class that fits the concept, this is a CharOp competition and there are a LOT of classes that specifically fit that concept with more power. (-.5)


    Elegance: 3.5
    • You have a fairly large rules error in the build. (-.5)
    • The classes advance in a consistent and understandable manner. (+.5)
    • You stick to core+completes, and simplicity is an ends in itself (+.5)

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
    • You take ten levels of Master of Masks (+.5)
    • The build would probably have been more powerful without MoM at all. (-1)



    Congratulations to all the contestants: all of the builds were a pleasure to read and score.



    As a side note, one thing I was hoping to see but did not was a natural attack build focused around the savage mask
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-06-30 at 11:57 AM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
    Spoiler
    Show

  17. - Top - End - #227
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amphetryon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Thanks, again, for the input.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV.

    Who made my awesome Dwarf Hexblade avatar, you ask? BRC did!
    Spoiler
    Show

  18. - Top - End - #228
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Hey Oz, just wanted to point out that Keiji's method of class alternating was probably inspired by some "classes" presented in Dragon showing how multiclassing could fit different themes. They alternated like that they always kept within one level of each other but each time they evened out they advanced the stronger/thematically cooler side. Here's what Martial Artist looked like. Ya, I'm totally aware this one sucks but, it was early 3.0 there weren't alot of options (I think Sword and Fist was the newest supplament) and people didn't know how to optimize yet.

    1 Monk1 Unarmed Strike better skills get the lvl 1 X4, etc.
    2 Fighter 1 Bonus Feat
    3 Monk 2 Bonus Feat Evasion
    4 Fighter 2 Bonus Feat
    5 Monk 3 still mind put off dead level
    6 Fighter 3 Dead Level
    7 Fighter 4 Bonus Feat Specialization
    8 Monk 4 ki strike (magic) slow fall 20
    9 Fighter 5 Despite being a dead level 5 being a +0 BAB level for monk coupled with BAB +8 opening up alot of feat choices fighters dead level is actually stronger than monk 5
    10 Monk 5 Purity of Body
    11 Monk 6 +1 all base saves, +1 BAB, bonus feat, and fast movement upgrades
    12 Fighter 6 bonus feat
    13 Monk 7 Wholeness of Body
    14 Fighter 7 Dead Level
    15 Fighter 8 Bonus Feat
    16 Monk 8 Slow Fall 40ft
    17 Monk 9 Improved Evasion
    18 Fighter 9 Dead Level
    19 Fighter 10 Bonus Feat
    20 Monk 10 Ki Strike(Lawful) Slow Fall 50

    Of course because it's Monk 10/Fighter 10 it's made of fail but it still illustrates my point that WotC created a precident for leveling that way and planted a seed in some people's heads that this is the best way to level a X 5/Y 6 character.

    Note: I was doing this from memory/looking at the monk srd.
    level 3 could have gone either way you could consider a fighter bonus feat to be better (at level 3) than improved grapple or stunning fist + evasion adding a another flip/flop. Level 9, though I'm certain my choice was right WotC may have valued purity of body higher than +1 BAB and more options for your lvl 9 open feat. Lvl 15 was another tough choice it was a +1 BAB, +1 all saves, and increased unarmed strike damage vs a fighter feat, monk 8 would have been another flip/flop.

  19. - Top - End - #229
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Hey, correct me if I fail: 8 entries posted, everyone with at least one high score, wonderful overall quality, an head-to-head for the win, 4 judges out of 5 have already voted and the last one is expecting to post this evening (no pressure over that, we're in early advance with schedule) and all judges, altough with largely different opinion, have a solid evaluation system.

    ..am I mistaking or this is the most successful Iron Chef since now?

    @Hand of Vecna: I well remember this way to level-up. It was a try of WotC to demonstrate that dual classing like AD&D was still possible.It were early times, 3.0 was still young, things like optimization were unthinkable and the most broken thing was the 1 level dip method in Ranger and Bard before to go Rogue.
    And I was still a high schooler. Wonderful times

  20. - Top - End - #230
    Banned
     
    The Vorpal Tribble's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Mindfields
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    So from my calculations 2 builds are neck and neck for 1st place, and the next two for 3rd, however, the next judge's ruling could change all of that.

  21. - Top - End - #231
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    You didn't post your calculations? So, here's what I've got, taking the four judges that have reported so far and averaging the scores:

    1. Jereth - 4.0625
    2. Seera - 4
    3. Kuiji/Keiji - 3.7187
    4. Dagger - 3.6875
    5. Shen the Masked Dragon - 3.3437
    6. Nameless/Faceless - 3.25
    7. The Masquerade - 2.9375
    8. Tanitha No-Face - 2.7187


    All of the scores are listed here:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Jereth
    4.25
    4.375
    3.75
    3.875
    4.0625

    Shen the Masked Dragon

    3.5
    3.125
    3.5
    3.25
    3.3437

    The Masquerade
    2.875
    3.625
    2.75
    2.5
    2.9375

    Seera
    4.25
    4.25
    3.5
    4
    4

    Kuiji/Keiji
    4.375
    3
    4
    3.5
    3.7187

    Nameless/Faceless
    3.75
    3
    2.875
    3.375
    3.25

    Dagger
    3.625
    4.25
    3.125
    3.75
    3.6875

    Tanitha No-Face
    3.125
    2.25
    2.75
    2.75
    2.7187
    Last edited by Bigbrother87; 2010-06-30 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Edited to reflect Ozymandias9's scoring change.
    The Silverclawshift Campaign Journals Two FANTASTIC campaigns detailed here. An absolute must read.

    "Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it." George Bernard Shaw

  22. - Top - End - #232
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    For whomever asked, Fractional BAB and saves is a variant rule and is not considered legal by this contest. This question comes up alot usually because somebody wants to get into a class as soon as possible like level 6 for a class that requires 8 ranks in a skill but, requires a combination of abilities that would push qualification with just core classes to a higher level.

    Usually there are less standard class combinations that will get you what you need.

    On the otherhand you could have a diptasstic character that needs them to not end up with a base save of +2 at lvl 20 or be really needs a higher BAB to be effective in combat. If so, I'd suggest reworking the character because even though I'm generally ok with it alot of the regular judges look down at it.

    Subject Change:

    I know a few things that can salvage GSA but, they may be considered limburger. Perhaps they'd be considered favorably if well supported in backstory. I have an old character that could have gone this way and his game only went to level 5 so I wouldn't have to change anything that was established.

  23. - Top - End - #233
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    Hey Oz, just wanted to point out that Keiji's method of class alternating was probably inspired by some "classes" presented in Dragon showing how multiclassing could fit different themes. They alternated like that they always kept within one level of each other but each time they evened out they advanced the stronger/thematically cooler side. Here's what Martial Artist looked like. Ya, I'm totally aware this one sucks but, it was early 3.0 there weren't alot of options (I think Sword and Fist was the newest supplament) and people didn't know how to optimize yet.
    I did actually notice that: it's something I like to see power-wise as it makes an even distribution over the character levels. I was considering awarding 1/2 a point in power like I did for Faceless: ultimately, however, because it was concentrated on the lower levels and didn't manage to avoid two fairly dead levels, I decided against it. (Switching Monk 3 and Ninja three so that some feats lined up with "Fast movement +10, still mind" probably would have been enough to warrant 1/2 a point).

    Like I said however: with some additional attention to explaining it in terms of characterization, I would have been willing to award a full point in elegance rather than 1/2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    On the otherhand you could have a diptasstic character that needs them to not end up with a base save of +2 at lvl 20 or be really needs a higher BAB to be effective in combat. If so, I'd suggest reworking the character because even though I'm generally ok with it alot of the regular judges look down at it.
    I'm actually very fond of the system, but it's a one of the UA variant systems which (for this contest), your character should not be dependent on.

    @ Bigbrother: Having actually slept now, I actually just caught something that I missed on Tanitha. My total score for her went up by half a point (bringing the average up to 2.75)-- she stayed within core+completes, which I decided later in the scoring process warranted 1/2 a point in elegance. I edited my most appropriately.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-06-30 at 12:03 PM. Reason: preventing double post
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
    Spoiler
    Show

  24. - Top - End - #234
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    @Oz, ya, I wasn't so much harping on you as putting out into the aether something I've been wanting to for awhile.

  25. - Top - End - #235
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Akal Saris's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Although seeing a Monk 10/Ftr 10 build made me gag a little (and how is this DMG build even returning to monk after leaving it?), thanks for explaining that bit.

    Personally, I figured there was some CO reason to the alternating levels - start with ninja for skills, then get your unarmed damage going, etc. Usually I structure my multiclass characters by starting with the one with more skills, then advancing whichever I need to fulfill feat prereqs by 3rd/6th (usually that ends up being the class with higher BAB).
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

    Trophies!
    Spoiler
    Show

    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

  26. - Top - End - #236
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Having learned some important lessons, I'm looking forward to the next one of these
    Bring it on!

  27. - Top - End - #237
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Private-Prinny's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Having learned some important lessons, I'm looking forward to the next one of these
    Bring it on!
    Now now, we still have to wait for Shneeky.

    As for the scores, I'm going to post the composites. 5 judges x 4 categories x 5 points per category = 100 points, which is a nice even number. Right now, out of 80, the scores are as follows:
    Spoiler
    Show
    1st: Jereth, with 65/80.
    2nd: Seera, with 64/80
    3rd: Keiji, with 59.5/80
    4th: Dagger, with 59/80
    5th: Shen, with 53.5/80
    6th: Faceless, with 52/80
    7th: Masquerade, with 47/80
    8th: Tanitha, with 43.5/80


    As you can see, the scores for 1st and 2nd are far too close to call a winner now, so we need the input of the last judge.
    Quotebox
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  28. - Top - End - #238
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Jereth
    Overall, a wonderful read. I loved how your background story started at level 20, and you slowly peeled the character's background all the way back down to level 1, rather than the reverse. It makes for a much more interesting read, and also points out that your build was certainly viable at all levels, which is a good thing.

    Originality 4.0 - I, at least, did not expect Paragon levels, and using MoM to advance Assassin casting was very different. The fact that you made it effective is even more so. I did, however, expect the choice in masks.

    Power 4.0 - Surprisingly nasty, both in and out of combat. Using your skill tricks and your spells to maximum benefit, and actually using the masks, depending on the situation.

    Elegance 4.0 - A very elegant build which has no dead levels, but neither does it have excessive multiclassing. The story was very convincing, and it all blended together well.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 4.5 - You got into it at level 7, you used all aspects of the class, your masks all gain you significant benefits as you level so it is worthwhile to continue going into MoM rather than just straight Assassin levels, and it fits your backstory perfectly.

    TOTAL SCORE: 4.125 - A very good read, and a very good build.

    Shen
    Rather had my brows quirked at several points, but still a solid entry nonetheless. Definitely the most unique entry method, although one I'm not exactly all that fond of. Typically, people go Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon for DFA as Sonic Damage, so at least you use it differently. Not as much backstory as the previous entry, but still enough to give me a feel for the guy.

    Originality 4.0 - From Fighter and Sorcerer, we get Master of Masks? That had me for a complete loop. However, docked points for a traditional gish lockdown build.

    Power 4.5 - Yea, with Wands early game, and spells late game, this guy is a very brutal gish. Wraithstrike + Power Attack = damage output. Wings of Cover for defense. He's got almost as many tricks up his sleeve as Batman Wizard.

    Elegance 3.0 - Yea. First off, I'm not sure if Zhent and Thug sub levels can stack together. Every time I see Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon, I cringe. And you're a Gish with only 6th level spells. Then let's get to the point where you are heavily gear and toy dependent. If your GM doesn't let you just purchase Eternal Wands at any local Magic Mart, your entire build is horridly nerfed.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.0 - You get into it early, probably the earliest entry of all the contestants. But you don't really do anything with it. The only thing you really do is use Gladiator mask for EWP: Spiked Chain and Archmage Mask, which is a real kick to your face since you could have had an even HIGHER caster level with a more standard Gish build. I really don't see what Master of Masks brings to the table you couldn't have gotten anyways.

    TOTAL SCORE: 3.625 - A powerful entry, and original entry method, but another Gish build who would probably have done better with more Sorc than MoM...

    Masquerade

    Well, this is certainly a brief entry. Again, I'm not really seeing the point to MoM for this build. It's simply a Bardarian Charger build built poorly. MoM gives almost nothing to this build that I can see, other than EWP: Spiked Chain. With Shock Trooper, he doesn't need a few paltry d6's from Assassin Mask, and the breath weapon from the Dragon Mask is likewise nearly pointless, since a) he can only use it 1d4 rounds, b) has lower average damage output than his weapons, and c) the saving throw is pathetically easy to overcome. Likewise, the Archmage mask provides almost nothing for this character, other than possible DimDoor to get out of trouble.

    Originality 3.0 - Bardarian Tripping Charger. Probably has a lot of IC enhancing toys. The only thing he doesn't have is Leap Attack for the Charge build.

    Power 3.5 - Charging is fun, but you don't have Leap Attack. However, it's still more damage output than either the Dragon or Archmage masks could provide, since you've got Pounce.

    Elegance 2.5 Just... why? You have one part Gatling Tripper, one part Charger, and one part... 'I want to join this competition'. A more in depth backstory would likely have helped here.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 2.5 - This build is functional in spite of, rather than because of, the Secret Ingredient. It seems to have been tacked onto what would otherwise be a Bardarian Tripping Charger. In particular, half the masks are completely pointless. Heck, even Gladiator is only used for EWP: Spiked Chain. A two-level dip in Fighter would have been more beneficial than all 10 levels in MoM.

    TOTAL SCORE: 2.875 A poorly done remake of a standard melee build with some MoM levels tacked on to qualify for the competition. The entire class could have been replaced with a couple of feats and a couple of magic items, to the build's extreme benefit.

    Seera
    Neverending backstory, but the mechanics... yeeesh. I'm not so worried about Dragonmarks so much as how you were playing fast and loose with certain Artificer rules. I know I'd be howling if I saw this show up at a gaming table I was sitting at.

    Originality 3.5 - Okay, I'll grant you, Artificer is pretty original entry method.

    Power 5.0 - Well... of course. Artificer. Automatic buffs on free-action mask switches. Gravestrike/Golemstrike at-will when Assassin Mask is up. Switching the energy on the breath weapon of the Dragon Mask to something less resisted and Stunning Breath on top of that. Divine Power + Righteous Might in the same free action. Far and away the most powerful entry.

    Elegance 1.0 - Just... no. Granted, it was a nice trick. Suitable for the CharOp boards, even. Not suitable for most gaming tables. I'd ban it as the GM, I'd howl if it sat down next to me. It relies on technicalities and poorly worded loopholes to do everything. It's not just optional, it's a central and core part of the build to augment the masks like that. This is about the iconic definition of what Elegance is not.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 4.0 - I'll give you this one, no problem. You use it. You abuse it. You leverage it in ways no one has ever before considered.

    TOTAL SCORE: 3.375 And a new trick for the CharOp boards to consider. Might have done better had it not been for my allergy to cheese.

    Keiji
    You know, you just had to go and rely heavily on the one sourcebook I despise more than any other... BoED/BoVD. Exalted feats are banned from my table. On top of that, your heavy use of Known Cheese (Diplomancy and Planar Ally) doesn't help much either. Be glad you listed Flaws as 'optional', because I flat mark down Elegance a full point per flaw. I also don't see how MoM significantly benefits the build.

    Originality 3.5 - Ninja/Monk/Apostle of Peace? Didn't see that one.

    Power 4.0 - in spite of, rather than because of, MoM. But yea, it's there.

    Elegance 2.0 - I may be grading this a bit harshly due to my dislike of anything smacking of Exalted, but really... blatant use of Known Cheese (Miracle, Planar Ally, Diplomancy).

    Use of Secret Ingredient 2.0 - You didn't even get your first level until character level 11, which means you never finished it. Your build would have been FAR more powerful without it than with it. And I don't think you really use them at all. You just use it for the casting, which can be done better without it, and that's about it.

    TOTAL SCORE: 2.875 - A concept that sounds like it lived next door to the T-Rexes piloting F-16's, and would have been better without getting bogged down by MoM.

    Robert Smith
    I don't own MoI, so I'm running on ignorance on what the Incarnum do. However, Chameleon and MoM tradeoffs is not only expected, but it keeps you from doing much WITH MoM.

    Originality 3.0 - On the one hand, I wasn't expecting Incarnum. On the other, Factorum entry with heavy leavening of Chameleon to create an 'I can be anything' build.

    Power 3.5 - I am not too familiar, but I know about Manticore Belt being one of the nastier methods of ranged damage output.

    Elegance 4.0 - A very elegant build which is knit together to make a complete whole. The power breaks at 6 and 12 are particularly inclined to increase this score. All too often, we don't see synergies until after 15. I like this. Everything weaves together to form a complete whole.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.0 - You didn't finish it, in fact you didn't get close. However, you did use what you got. Less Chameleon and more MoM would have scored you better here.

    TOTAL SCORE: 3.375 And a very well done entry.

    Dagger

    An interesting concept. I saw the merest mention of Ur and nearly saw red, until I realized you didn't actually take any levels of Ur-Priest, and I relaxed.

    Originality 4.0 - A Warforged was not something I was expecting, and the background story you created was both delightful and unique. I can forgive the Factorum dip for entry purposes.

    Power 3.5 - Archivist is a tier 1 class for a reason. Fortunately, you didn't use any of the more extreme abuses you could have put it through.

    Elegance 3.0 - Bonus points for Spymaster/MoM synergy, coupled with the Archivist to create a cohesive whole. Penalties for and extremely troublesome qualification method for your Exalted feats. I wouldn't have let it fly, at any rate. In fact, you did play fast and loose with a couple of aspects of the mechanics.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.0 - On the one hand, you incorporated it into the very core of the build, with every persona the creature assumes being it's own separate mask. Absolutely lovely. However, you didn't bother finishing it, because you were too busy tying it up with Spymaster.

    TOTAL SCORE: 3.375 A very well thought out build, lovely backstory, but played a bit fast and loose, and I felt it somehow shorted by the fact that you would rather have had more levels of Spymaster than of MoM.

    Tanitha
    You misread Practiced Spellcaster. You do not, in fact, get more spells known/per day. All you get is improved caster level. This means you are actually casting as a 3rd level cleric, with +4 CL (and +6 CL with the HP mask on) for purposes of determining level dependent variables.

    Originality 3.5 - Cleric, I didn't expect here.

    Power 3.0 - I was tempted to give a 0 in this, due to the fact that the entire basis for the power of the build is illegal. However, I felt that would be unnecessarily harsh, so instead, I judged it on it's own merits with the spells known and per day of a 3rd level cleric (I had assumed you advanced Assassin casting with MoM).

    Elegance 0 - You are basing your entire concept on a flawed premises. I'd almost call it an illegal build, but the build itself is perfectly legal, even if you don't get 7th level Cleric spells as you assume. No, you can't cast anything higher than a 2nd level spell (divine). If I were the GM, I'd have told you to go back and re-write this character into something that follows the rules, therefore that's what I'm going to do as a judge.

    Use of Secret Ingredient 3.5 - Other than the Morbo-esque "Improved Caster Levels Do Not Work That Way" headdesk moment, you do incorporate MoM into the build, do finish it... barely... and do use it extensively.

    TOTAL SCORE: 2.5 Due to a poor reading of the rules concerning Caster Level vs Spellcasting Levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    IonDragon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central California, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    So when's the next one?
    My games:
    Have you ever wondered How to Succeed in Evil?

    Thanks licoot for the awesome Pip avatar!

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by IonDragon View Post
    So when's the next one?
    Hey, boy, let our chairman proclaim the winner, let him (who at now wuold be known) be congratulated, maybe let us discuss and chit-chat a lil bit more and then there will be a next.
    Be patient, young padawan, you'll have a new challenge in a couple of days max, I guess.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •