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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    I found it interesting that two of the builds required diametrically opposed readings on what exactly the masks were qualified as in order to work.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I found it interesting that two of the builds required diametrically opposed readings on what exactly the masks were qualified as in order to work.
    Are you talking of what entries, exactly? Just for curiosity

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ingus View Post
    Are you talking of what entries, exactly? Just for curiosity
    My reading of Seera is a build focused on the masks as magic items, while Keiji expressly cannot count them as magic items due to the VoP.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    And now for the Big Reveal!

    *drumroll*

    In 1st place, Draz74's Jereth!
    In 2nd place, Ingus's Seera!
    In 3rd, The Vorpal Tribble's Dagger!
    In 4th, Amphetryon's Keiji!
    In 5th, true_shinken's Shen!
    In 6th, Arbitrarity's Faceless!
    In 7th, Octopus Jack's Masquerade!
    in 8th, Ajadea's Tanitha No-Face!

    Congratulations to Draz and Ingus, and thank you to everyone who participated. I'll probably have the next thread up tonight.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Congratulations, Draz.

    Scoring was really all over the map on this one, wasn't it?
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Yay on my first optimization contest and I didn't quite lose. I'm definitely going to be compeating again.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Congrats to Draz, his was my second favourite, head to head with mine. Dagger was my fav, but judges thought differently. Nevertheless, good job Vorpal, indeed.

    I thank all judges for the critics more than for good marks. Don't feel bad for bad scores in elegance: Seera deserved it all
    When I had the idea, it was all of a sudden, all completed, all as-is. I knew in advance I'll hit very bad in elegance, but I really felt that the poor girlie needed a chanche to hit Merrix back (by the way, my most hatred Eberron NPC )
    I'm really glad the backstory has been liked. Since it is my favourite part, I'm very glad.

    Allow me just one clarification with Shneekey. Don't take it bad, it is not grudge, but I'm curious on what d'you intend by "It relies on technicalities and poorly worded loopholes". Since this is what I think of Pun-Pun, I'm starting to worry. (Really).
    ...or maybe you imply that all customized magic items rules fall into this category, in which case you're probably right
    (but, in case, please share my guilt with WotC )

    And Prinny: if you can, please reserve me a place as a judge, since I'll probably have no time to build anything and I would like to follow next one

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Meh. This is what I get for reading the text of Practiced Spellcaster at midnight. And trying to throw a build together in two days. Ah well. It was fun, and I'm definitely entering again, no matter what the secret ingredient is.

    Congrats to Draz and Ingus! I really thought Jereth and Seera were interesting, and I know warforged was a racial choice that made me do a slight double-take.
    Last edited by Ajadea; 2010-07-01 at 12:42 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    And now for the Big Reveal!

    *drumroll*

    In 1st place, Draz74's Jereth!
    Woot! That went rather well. Thanks, everyone. That was fun.

    Congrats to the other participants, too. Some of those characters definitely had me worried about tight competition.

    A few responses to judges' comments that I wasn't able to respond to at the time:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    That said, I think going half-elf was of questionable value Ė you waste a feat on human heritage and could probably have done just as well as a Human paragon 1/swashbuckler 4 (picking up seduction)/Assassin 3/MoM 10/human paragon +2.
    Yeah, Human Heritage and Able Learner were actually last-minute additions to the build, and with them added in, you're right that Half-Elf added little to the build's power. (Though it did still fit the backstory, and the "persuasion" ability of Paragon 2 is very flavorful for a social-skills character.) I still feel a little bad about essentially becoming a human instead of a half-elf, but it came down to a power vs. flavor choice essentially. (Without Able Learner, I had to burn a lot of skill points on cross-class skills ... both to qualify for PrCs, and because MoM just doesn't have very good class skills.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    Use of secret Ingredient-Takes all ten levels and is made of fail without it. 5
    Heh, well put.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    • The build fits the back story well, but moreover it creates the impression that either the build or the story could have been created first and the other built to that effect (+1).
    • Moreover, the story itself would make a good addition to the campaign world (and since it is structured to resemble rumor, it would be easy to introduce for a villain)(+.5).
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Jereth
    Overall, a wonderful read. I loved how your background story started at level 20, and you slowly peeled the character's background all the way back down to level 1, rather than the reverse. It makes for a much more interesting read, and also points out that your build was certainly viable at all levels, which is a good thing.
    Good, I'm glad the backstory was appreciated; I thought it was the best part of Jereth. Especially the common elements that carried over from one alias to the next. And I definitely wrote it with making it workable as an interesting NPC (or even PC, possibly) in an actual campaign.

    I'm a little surprised no one commented on the Phantom of the Opera references that I tried to put into the final piece of Jereth's backstory, though. Too subtle? Or appreciated and just not mentioned? Anyway, I thought it was a good play on the "masks" theme.

    Power 4.0 - Surprisingly nasty, both in and out of combat. Using your skill tricks and your spells to maximum benefit, and actually using the masks, depending on the situation.
    I think some of the judges had a higher opinion of Jereth's Power than I did. Oh well. I suppose it's fortunate, given Shneekey's strong "cheese intolerance," that Imperious Command happens to be a particular favorite optimization trick of his.

    Incidentally, the other idea I had for this contest was a Totemist/Master of Masks (though I guess I would have needed a dip in some other class to get the necessary skills and casting; Bard perhaps). Savage Mask and natural attacks would have been a "Power" element, but the real motivation was to go crazy with the "masks" theme by acquiring all kinds of "Mask" soulmelds. Ultimately I just couldn't get these ideas to work when crammed into one build, though.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-07-01 at 12:49 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    In retrospect, a incarnate 2/Human Paragon 3/MoM/Chameleon would have made people happier. Oh well. I wouldn't have had an offense then. Admittedly, my current offense, which easily kills most level appropriate opponents in a round, may have been overkill. "A nice bundle of damage" hah.

    Also, should've remembered to bind Sighting gloves. That gives precise shot. That's what I get for not carefully reading Splitting.

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    *bows to Draz and Ingus*

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingus View Post
    Dagger was my fav, but judges thought differently. Nevertheless, good job Vorpal, indeed.
    Thanks

    3rd place for the 3rd time. Tsk.

    What amused me is that certain comments that they didn't care for was actually done on purpose. His entire nature is to cheat the system, stick stab it to 'the man', and I purposely worked that into the crunch to go with the fluff. Factotum wasn't even really meant as a dip, it's an unfocused, little of everything class that meshed with a recently forged warforged gaining basic training to become a master generalist. That then flows into archivist where he again cheats the system by learning divine spells without worship and how to manipulate creatures and men. Factotum is high school, Archivist is college. Also, it may have been too vague, but if you follow the spells known with his roles, you see him learning those he might by his surroundings. Druid and nature-based with elves, physically effecting ones with orcs, etc.

    My problem is I always sacrifice optimization for betterment of story. I'm thinking of doing the next competition totally cynically and just powerhousing it, and 'then' seeing what story I can make with it. Maybe two entries even, one as I'd normally do it and then the above.

    Losing 8 CLs from archivist is like taking a punch to the gut, but thankfully the good stealth and scouting spells are all low to mid level. Heís incredibly difficult to find magically (though with no ranks in hide a good spot check can locate him, oddly enough), but thatís not really a useful PC role without the attacks to pack it up. Itís a bit difficult to pin down what Dagger is going to do in most combats though Ė what is he going to do at 20th level, for example?
    Invisibility and Silence aid that. However, he's not meant to be a sneak. He manipulates you into telling you what you saw.

    Bluffs within bluffs, lies that sound more plausible than the truths. He boldly walks in and tells you what reality is.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-01 at 01:15 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Congrats to Draz and Ingus as well :) Ingus, be careful about signing up for judging - going through all 8 contestants and giving the scores took me a good 4-5 hours. That's more time than I spent on the Warchanter competition :P

    I'm also glad to see that everyone is intent on competing again :)

    VT, give 'totally powerhousing it' a shot. Half the time I make the build and then I fit the story to it. Then again, I've done better with the builds where the story came first.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Shame. I was really hoping to see Seera at the top. Still, Jereth was a good build, and quite deserving of the victory. Good job Draz, good job.

    Dagger... I liked him. Was unique and creative. Not that good if the party actually starts fighting him though, since the second they get a lock he's gonna die, and he's got nothing to take out large groups with really. But, hey, not everyone is idea for fighting in groups.

    Totally judging again, btws. I enjoy this.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-07-01 at 01:29 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Dagger... I liked him. Was unique and creative. Not that good if the party actually starts fighting him though, since the second they get a lock he's gonna die, and he's got nothing to take out large groups with really. But, hey, not everyone is idea for fighting in groups.
    That's why he is best friends with all the major power groups he can get his hands on. He's basically got Leadership but without having to pay anyone.

    Also, say he takes a -16 penalty from playing a different race, gender and age category and the person know them intimately. An average roll still puts that at a 30 spot check. This dude could be anyone in the entire church or government at any given time. He could spread rumors to hide practically anything while spreading others to kill off the characters.

    He's is built to never need a high BAB or saves. Seriously, no actual intelligent person would just stand there and do battle with obviously high leveled characters alone? He'd have to have a low wisdom, be utterly conceited, or be a dragon. Dagger is none of those, and he is entrenched. The characters would likely have no idea of what was true and what was not because he has no accomplices. Everything he says is to people that trust him. Sense Motive would do nothing, nor would torture, truth-inducing spells or mind control.

    Pick out the winners of every contest here and pit them against me playing Dagger. I'll give them a run for their money

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    While all of that is true, and I acknowledge it all, STANDING ALONE, as this contest judges, Dagger is lacking in the ability to endure at all against anyone of his own level, which is fine. It DID hurt him a little, but it's more just a minor quibble on my part.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    What if you go up against BooNL's' Psibond Agent entry? The two of you are both perfect masters of disguise and manipulation, do you cancel each other out?

    Edit: Whoops, BooNL's entry, not Strategos'. Though looking back at it Psibond Agent had a lot of manipulator types after all.

    And speaking of them, what happened to BooNL and Grynning? No posts at all from them in this competition =/
    Last edited by Akal Saris; 2010-07-01 at 02:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    5th place, not so bad.
    I actually finished Shen's build than had ANOTHER idea, probably better, but then it was already sent so I said to hell with it.
    Congrats for the winners, it was a very good competition and I'm looking forward to the next one!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Two first place votes, that's the good news.

    Finishing 4th with first place votes... hmm. Need to think on that.
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    And speaking of them, what happened to BooNL and Grynning? No posts at all from them in this competition =/
    I do not know of his whereabouts. However, I do know I will soon be replacing BoonLR in a game down in the play sector. If our group finds out what happened to him, I'll let you know Akal.
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  20. - Top - End - #260
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Ya, I feel kinda bad about beating Keiji so bad. He really was a cool character. In retrospect, I assume you just missed AoP granting Airwalk before you got your first mask. If you'd noticed that or gotten a proofer who noticed it, you could have selected different mask granted abilities to highlight. It still would have been a middling Use score from me but, better.

    That's why I turned around and defended your alternating leveling of monk/ninja that I felt was fully justified.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Incidentally:

    Keiji Mutoh, who wrestled for a time as the 'White Ninja.'
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  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Two first place votes, that's the good news.

    Finishing 4th with first place votes... hmm. Need to think on that.
    That combination of statistics implies that "you tried daring things, which some of the judges liked, and some didn't."

    For what it's worth, I think you were the competition I was most afraid to be compared to.
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  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingus View Post
    liked. Since it is my favourite part, I'm very glad.

    Allow me just one clarification with Shneekey. Don't take it bad, it is not grudge, but I'm curious on what d'you intend by "It relies on technicalities and poorly worded loopholes". Since this is what I think of Pun-Pun, I'm starting to worry. (Really).
    ...or maybe you imply that all customized magic items rules fall into this category, in which case you're probably right
    (but, in case, please share my guilt with WotC )
    The technicality and poorly worded loophole is counting the masks as being magic items, which was not really clearly defined, which is what your character uses to do ultra-buffing with, by using the masks as a free action and getting the buff associated with said mask, ending up with several buffs with a free action. Which, granted, is really nifty. But, on the other hand, is not something you can count on every GM allowing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Congrats to Draz and Ingus as well :) Ingus, be careful about signing up for judging - going through all 8 contestants and giving the scores took me a good 4-5 hours. That's more time than I spent on the Warchanter competition :P
    I had to use more or less 12 hours for this contest. Being a non english speaker and wanting to write down a good backstory seems to be time eating issues

    @Vorpal: I concur with Akal. Power first doesn't pay and, more than this, it is not fun at all. By the way, you'll have the satisfaction to know that another contestant (me) will employ your build in his campaign, with your permission

    @Shneekey: Thanks for your answer. I obviously not concur, but that's it
    By the way, if you consider 'em not magical, then you can use them as base object (since you can use everything). Then, again... when the new one will start?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    No, that would ruin the action economy portion of the build because now there isn't a move or swift action "activation" for you to piggyback onto. So, you would defenately pay extra for less standard action activation.

    Further, (just thought of this typing the above) there is another issue with the piggy backy onto a move/swift activation, it doesn't work that way.

    Say I'm a mage with a wand of fireballs and I want it to shoot lightnig bolts too. I could craft a both in one item useing item stacking rules. If I want them to run off the same 50 charges I get a steep discount or I might have to pay a small premium to have two seperate sets of charges via the item stacking rules. However all I have now is a wand that can cast either fireball or lightning bolt as a standard action.

    There are several ways you could go from here to accualy accomplish the effect but the point is their more expensive/complicated than piggybacking one effect onto another in a way that resembles crafted contingency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    That's why he is best friends with all the major power groups he can get his hands on. He's basically got Leadership but without having to pay anyone.

    Also, say he takes a -16 penalty from playing a different race, gender and age category and the person know them intimately. An average roll still puts that at a 30 spot check. This dude could be anyone in the entire church or government at any given time. He could spread rumors to hide practically anything while spreading others to kill off the characters.

    He's is built to never need a high BAB or saves. Seriously, no actual intelligent person would just stand there and do battle with obviously high leveled characters alone? He'd have to have a low wisdom, be utterly conceited, or be a dragon. Dagger is none of those, and he is entrenched. The characters would likely have no idea of what was true and what was not because he has no accomplices. Everything he says is to people that trust him. Sense Motive would do nothing, nor would torture, truth-inducing spells or mind control.

    Pick out the winners of every contest here and pit them against me playing Dagger. I'll give them a run for their money
    So basically employing the tactics of my Joker Bard?

    Had you mentioned that, your Power score would have gotten a significant boost. You see, I Judge based on what the contestant presents us, not what is theoretically possible with the build. Technically, you could have had the same kind of shennanigans the other Artificer build had.

    Mind you, I loved the story of Dagger. It was well-written, and entirely plausible. However, this wasn't 'Iron Chef Puppetmasters Optimization Challenge', it was 'Master of Masks'. I will grant that you had awesome synergy going on, even though I wouldn't let a non-good character take exalted feats even if they had a mask which made them look like it superficially, but in your rush to create the perfect puppetmaster, you kind of got sidetracked with your MoM levels.

    The Secret Ingredient was MoM, not Spymaster. That's ultimately what cost you the 1st place trophy.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-07-02 at 08:20 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #267
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I will grant that you had awesome synergy going on, even though I wouldn't let a non-good character take exalted feats even if they had a mask which made them look like it superficially, but in your rush to create the perfect puppetmaster, you kind of got sidetracked with your MoM levels.
    Given the commentary you made on Keiji, I am curious if his use of BoED material was deleterious to Dagger's score?
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  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Hey, just a thought. We should make a rule that whomever wins each competition is automatically a judge next time around.

    Thoughts anyone?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    Hey, just a thought. We should make a rule that whomever wins each competition is automatically a judge next time around.

    Thoughts anyone?
    I dislike this. I think judge should always be a voluntary position.
    And we need to make it possible for other people to beat Akal's record ^^

  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I dislike this. I think judge should always be a voluntary position.
    And we need to make it possible for other people to beat Akal's record ^^
    I agree. Not all contestants would enjoy - or necessarily excel - as judges, and the opposite is equally true.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV.

    Who made my awesome Dwarf Hexblade avatar, you ask? BRC did!
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