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    Default Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Old timer
    "How'd I loose my leg? Well it was back in the great war when the west hill orcs, 7 ft tall ugly pigs armed with axes as big as you, invaded during the winter and I was drafted into... blah blah blah-blah, blah...

    ...So your very own Grandpa slew the Dire Boar with one desperate lunge with my spear and saved the commanders life. It was too late for my leg, but I was quite the hero. Yes I was. You youngsters have it easy."
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Kid
    "Oh. Granny said you were being a fool, fell off a horse, and got run over by your own cheese cart."
    Creatures loose limbs, that's why some creatures have regenerations and the restoration spells exist. Of course, usually this happens to Other People, not the Heros.

    However, sometimes the champaign is gritty and a little more personal. Sometimes the DM wants to crank up the pressure and danger without actually putting the PC's in acute repetitive danger of TPKs. This rule variant is for those campaigns.

    Limbs and Limb Damage
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    Most creatures are considered to have 6 'limbs' to loose.
    For most humanoid this is: Head, Torso, Left Arm, Right Arm, Left Leg, Right Leg.

    Each 'limb' has 3-4 damage levels.
    Appendages have three damage levels: Full functional / maimed / destroyed.
    The head and torso have 4 damage levels: Fully functional / maimed / severely maimed / destroyed. This compensates for the fact that a severed head is usually automatically fatal.

    Damage stacks. So if a (Full Functional) arm is damaged it becomes (Maimed).
    If the (Maimed) arm is further damaged it is reduced to (Destroyed).

    Limb damage comes in two types: Permanent and Temporary. Temporary damage represents broken bones, sprains, dislocations, and other troubles that go beyond mere hp loss. Permanent damage usual reflects destroyed tissue or severed extremities.


    Conditions of Limb Loss
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    Characters take limb damage in any situation where they suffer massive damage or are KOed by a heavy hit.

    Limb damage occurs when:
    A) Massive Damage. The character takes more than 1/2 their normal max HP in damage from a single hit
    -or-
    B) Are KO'd by a heavy hit. A creature dropped to negative HP by a hit that dealt at least 1/4 their normal max HP damage.

    The above stack, so if a creature is dropped into the negatives by a strike that dealt more than 1/2 their normal hp they would roll twice for limb loss. Limb damage occurs even if the victim was killed by the blow, explaining why Raise Dead specifies that limb loss/damage is not repaired in the raising process.

    For a standard creature with six 'limbs' roll a d6 to determine what was hit, and make a DC (12 + 1/3 damage taken) fort save.
    If successful the wound is temporary, on a failure the damage is permanent.

    For attacks with nonlethal damage a save instead indicates no limb damage and a failure indicates temporary damage.

    Called Shot: (optional limb loss rule)
    By taking a -4 on the attack roll a specific limb may be targeted. If the attack hits and deals at least 1/4 the targets normal max HP or KO's the target then the targeted limb takes limb damage. If the victim is KO'ed by a called shot that deals more than 1/2 the target's normal max HP in damage then the targeted limb takes limb damage twice.

    A hit that deals called shot limb damage does not also deal standard limb damage.


    Mechanical Penalties of Limb Loss
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    Leg damage
    (1) maimed leg: This creature walks with a limp.
    -5ft base speed, -2 penalty on all leg based skills. (Climb, jump, move silently, etc)

    (2+) maimed legs: This creature lurches with a pronounced limp.
    -10 ft base speed, -4 on all leg skills.
    Using one arm/hand to hold a crutch, cane, or other support reduces this to half.

    (1) destroyed leg: This creature has either a missing or unresponsive leg.
    The creature may stand and hobble at half speed if using one arm/hand to hold a crutch or other support, but otherwise falls prone. -6 all leg skills, -2 Str,Dex.

    (1) destroyed (1+) maimed leg: This creature is in bad shape.
    This creature may stand and hobble at (1/2 speed) -5ft if using one arm/hand to hold a crutch or other support, but otherwise falls prone. -8 all leg skills, -2 Str,Dex.

    (2+) destroyed legs.This creature is completely crippled and is always mechanically prone unless carried. The creature may still crawl if they have at least one free arm. -10 all leg skills, -4 Str/Dex.

    Arm/Hand: Damage
    (1) Maimed: The creature's arm is broken, missing finger(s), or badly sprained.
    -2 on all attack rolls using this hand and on skill checks require the use of the hand. (use rope, climb, etc)

    (2+) Maimed arms/hands. All of the creature's arms are maimed.
    -2 on all attack rolls and skill checks that require the use of a hand, double two or more hands would have been required.

    (1) Destroyed: The creature's arm is missing or unresponsive from the elbow down.
    This arm can not be used to hold anything or perform any skill. -10 on skill checks that ordinarily require the use of the destroyed hand.

    (1) Destroyed (1+) Maimed.
    Destroyed hand/arm can not be used. -2 on all attack rolls/skill checks that require the use of another hand/arm. -15 on all skill checks that would ordinarily require the destroyed hand.

    (2+) destroyed: The creature is missing several arms.
    Destroyed hands/arms can not be used. Assume any remaining arms on a multi-armed creature are maimed. If all of a creatures arms have been destroyed then any skill that would usually require a hand is made with a -30 penalty and any skill that ordinarily requires two hands is impossible.

    Head Wounds
    Maimed: Flip a coin. Heads, the creature is now half-blind. Tails, the creature is now half deaf.

    Severally Maimed: If the creature was formally half-blind it is now fully blind an half deaf. If it was formally half deaf it is now complelty deaf and half blind. -2Int/Wis/Cha.

    Decapitated. This is usually fatal even if 'temprorary'

    Half Blind: This creature has lost an eye.
    -4 on spot/search. All foes have +10% concealment (max 50%).

    Half deaf: This creature has lost an ear.
    -4 on listen, -2 on initiative, +5% spell failure when casting spell with a verbal component.


    Torso damage
    Maimed: A lost kidney, cracked ribs, a festering wound... that had to hurt.
    -2 Con.

    Severally Maimed: This creature has half their chest caved in. Adventures who survive this usually decide it's time to retire.
    Sickened, -2 Con.

    Destroyed: A broken back is just the start of your problems.
    Flip a coin. If head's the creatures right side is now paralyzed. Tails and the left side is now paralyzed. All limbs on the paralyzed side act as if destroyed even if they are still attached and in decent health.
    Sickened with -4 Con. Any outside affect that would ordinarily cause the sickened condition instead creates the nauseated condition.

    Ability penalties for limb loss overlap rather than stack.


    Recovering from Limb Loss
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    Temporary Damage
    Natural Healing:
    Temporary damage will naturally heal in 2d12 days. Providing long term care to the victim cuts the recovery time in half.

    Magical Healing:
    A Restoration, Heal, Limited Wish or better can allow temporary limb damage to instantly recovery.

    A (temporary-maimed) limb can be fully healed, but a (temporary-destroyed) or (temporary-severely maimed) limb only heals to (Permanent-Maimed) status. Some injures are just too great to ever fully recover without great magic.

    Permanent Damage
    First Aid:
    Permanent limb loss can also be prevented by providing the afflicted individual rapid healing. If the damaged individual receives at least 5 points of magical healing within 10 minutes of the loss at DC 15 + (2 per point of save failure) heal check by the caster makes the lose only temporary. Only one such check per lost limb is allowed.

    Mundane Healing
    Permanent damage will never heal naturally or by mundane means.

    Magical Healing
    Permanent limb damage may only be recovered by a Regeneration, Greater Restoration, Wish, Miracle, or equivalent spells or powers.


    Prosthetics
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    Peg Leg: This primitive leg replacements allows a creature with a lost leg to move as if they were using a crutch. Peg Legs don't function if all of a creatures legs have been destroyed. Market Cost: 50gp.

    Hook
    This primitive hand replacement cuts the skill penalty for checks requiring the use of the destroyed hand in half. Further, the hook can be used in combat as a light simple weapon that deals 1d4 piercing damage for a medium creature. Since the hook is attached it also has gives a +5 bonus against attempts to disarm the wearer of the hook. Market cost: 50 gp.

    Wheel Chair This contraption provides mobility to creatures with double leg loss. A creature in a wheel chair may push themselves on level ground at 1/2 speed as long as one arm is used to push. This increases to 2/3 speed if moving down hill and slows to 1/3 speed if moving up hill.

    A creature in a wheel chair may alternately be pushed by another. The pusher is considered to by carrying 1/4 the pushed characters weight on a smooth surface or 1/2 the pushed characters weight on a rough surface.

    Cost: 200 gp.

    Clockwork Leg/arm This advanced limb replacement is the best mundane technology can provide. A clockwork leg replacement functions as a (Permanent-Maimed) leg or arm. Market Cost: 1,000 gp.


    Heros Never Die (Optional Limb Loss rule)
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    If the hero is reduced to -10 damage (IE: killed) they may instead opt to make a DC (15 + damage that exceed the -10 threshold) Fort or Reflex save.

    If successful the creature becomes unconscious, but stable, at -9 with a permanent limb damage injury. On a failure the creature dies as normal.

    Only one such second chance per encounter is allowed, and a DC 10 heal check is required to notice that such a character who made the save still clings to life. This variant also applies to key reoccurring NPC's that the DM wasn't quite done with.


    Combat Examples
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    Farmer Bob (L1 commoner with 4 hp) gets kicked by a mule. (6 damage). This inflict two sets of limb damage: 1st for taking greater than 1/2 health and 2nd for being dropped into the negatives by a blow that dealt more than 1/4 damage.

    He rolls 'head' and 'left leg' on damage locations and makes a DC 14 fort save for each, earning a success on the leg and a failure for the head. Bob got kicked in face and sprained his ankle falling backwards. The ancle will heal but Bob seems to have permanently lost one of his eyes.

    Alex Slasher is trying out his extreme disarming technique, and makes a targeted attack against the attacking orc warriors right arm. He hits and deals 4 damage. The orc only had 6 hp, so this is enough for one level of limb damage to the arm. The orc makes the DC 13 save and suffers only a few broken fingers. Alex's technique appears to need more work.

    Rockhard the Barbarian is now L10 with 100 hp when he is struck by 6 flaming arrows each dealing 15 damage each. He's a tough man who manages to shrug off every hit without suffering any limb damage since none dealt more than the 50 damage threshold. Latter in the battle gets nocked out by a 7th arrow.

    Steve the Hero is a L12 fighter also with 100 hp when he gets battered down to 40 hp before being pushed of the edge of a cliff. 150 ft later he goes splat for 60 falling damage, which should drop any two bit random monster to a flat -20. Of course, in this Campaign Heros Never Die, so he's entitled to a DC 25 (15 + amount below -10) save to take a permanent wound rather than death. He also has to make two DC 32 fort saves against for taking greater over 1/2 his max hp in damage and being knocked out by a blow that dealt over 1/4 his max hp in damage.

    Steve is pretty hurt but will probably live to mount a heroic rescue against his captured party.


    Meta Game Analysis
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    This system does four things:

    1) Adds Grit.
    PC's no longer have to die to face significant threats to their characters, and those who once yawned at getting slain may worry more about loosing an arm.

    2) Adds RP opportunities.
    The DM now have a uniform yard stick for telling players that they cut the orc in two, and when characters suddenly are bandaging up sprained ankles or the bloody stub of a lost hand they have fresh details to discus IC.

    3) Gives greater importance for the Heal skill.
    When was the last you saw someone take more than 2 ranks in heal?

    4) If the Heroes-Never-Die is used death becomes less common.
    This makes it easier for the villains to capture your PC's if the plot calls for it and allows you to throw tougher challenges at them with fewer player deaths. As a bonus, when since death is now rarer dying becomes more significant to the players.
    Last edited by Psionic Dog; 2012-04-15 at 09:25 AM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    I love it! For quite some time I've been looking for some way to include mass dismemberment in my games with solid rules behind it and you've done it. Great job!

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    The day you posted this, I was thinking of making a mechanic for limb loss. Then you posted it. Freaky.

    I read the first few parts, but started to skim really badly, so I have no memory of the last half.

    I won't be using this, by the way, people playing with me. Don't worry.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    This doesn't really do anything, since you're going to be dead if you take limb loss anyway, and the DC for the fortitude save to take permanent injuries is practically never going to be passable. The only time it will ever affect the game is if you get hit for a huge amount of your HP.

    In another note, how does this deal with bludgeoning, piercing, and AoE damage? I mean, why is it that you can lose a limb permanently from electricity, or blunt damage, or even piercing damage?

    As for not recovering by magic: Restoration already explicitly states it regrows lost body parts. Nerfing that just doesn't make sense, especially since, above level 5, D&D heroes are far beyond any fantasy heroes and their magic is incredibly powerful. It gets even wackier when you can't even heal temporary damage correctly using a wish or miracle spell.

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    In another note, how does this deal with bludgeoning, piercing, and AoE damage? I mean, why is it that you can lose a limb permanently from electricity, or blunt damage, or even piercing damage?
    Electricity could probably blow off a limb with enough volts and such if you were unlucky.

    I've nearly kicked a guy's head off. It took a lot of kicks, but hey.

    I imagine skewering someone's arm with a spear or shooting them with an arrow could either take the limb off or at least damage it pretty dang badly.

    Area of effect damage...I suppose the explosions could be explained.

    Eh. It's kind of stretching it, but that's the best I can do at 3:20 a.m.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Crushed limbs in need of amputation. Really, you can explain a lot of that by amputation. Either way, it seems like an interesting system.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    It's quite possible to lose an arm due to a bullet wound (strikes a vital nerve, artery, or directly on the bone). Why should a spear point be any different there? Ditto for bludgeoning damage - a limb can be crushed beyond usefulness.

    Electricity won't blow a limb off - that's not what electricity does. tbh, any electricity damage severe enough to fry a limb would have been conducted over the entire body first. But in this case, I'm willing to be at least a little cinematic, and say it did some localised frying of motor nerves.

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanoblack View Post
    I love it! For quite some time I've been looking for some way to include mass dismemberment in my games with solid rules behind it and you've done it. Great job!
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    This doesn't really do anything, since you're going to be dead if you take limb loss anyway, and the DC for the fortitude save to take permanent injuries is practically never going to be passable. The only time it will ever affect the game is if you get hit for a huge amount of your HP.
    So... you're suggesting I lower the loss threshold somewhat? The point is for limb loss to occur only when struck half dead/killed and not for every single injury faced.

    As far as the Permanent Save DC the check is supposed to be higher than standard. It adds dramatic tension, with the first aid reduction check included to make up the difference. Still, I'll double check my math on how it scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    In another note, how does this deal with bludgeoning, piercing, and AoE damage? I mean, why is it that you can lose a limb permanently from electricity, or blunt damage, or even piercing damage?
    The others have it.
    Slashing damage? Severed.
    Crushing? Limb is mangled, and would heal in twisted withered club of an appendage: best amputate.
    Energy? The flesh was fried from the very bone. See crushing.
    Piercing? Ok, this makes sense for head/torso damage but less so for appendages. Still, I have faith my fellow DM's can find a creative reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    As for not recovering by magic: Restoration already explicitly states it regrows lost body parts. Nerfing that just doesn't make sense, especially since, above level 5, D&D heroes are far beyond any fantasy heroes and their magic is incredibly powerful. It gets even wackier when you can't even heal temporary damage correctly using a wish or miracle spell.
    ... are we speaking of the same restoration? I see nothing there about limb regeneration. And yes, a wish or miracle would heal all temporary limb damage. I believe the relevant clause was "X healing or better."


    Now, a question for the others: Currently repairing permanent damage is harder than a Raise Dead but easier than a Resurrection. Is this too much? Should lesser magics be permitted to repair limb loss?
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    It's hard to come up with how electricity could affect mainly one limb, but all others are kinda no brainers, as anyone probably realizes that nothing have to be actually completely disconnected to be "lost"...

    And if someone really wants actual loss:

    Quote from Usama ibn Munqidh:

    " I was the witness of terrific spear strikes. One strike was dealt by the Frankish knight - may Allah curse him - to one of our warriors named Saja ibn Kunajb Kilabi. He had three ribs severed on his left side, and three ribs ob his right. The spear blade hit him to the elbow, and separated it, just like butcher separates the portions of meat"

    Crappy translation from polish () is mine, but the sense is there.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2010-06-21 at 05:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Half Blind: This creature has lost an eye.
    -4 on spot/search. All foes have +10% concealment (max 50%).
    Is that +10% concealment only where there is existing concealment, or is it a constant base of +10% concealment, even in broad, clear daylight?

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Have you considered statting out wheelchairs, for those who've lost limbs?

    I realize that "old fashion" wheelchairs weren't much navigable outside of one's study, but a newer one might have some use.

    New Mundane Item

    Wheelchair: This sturdy wooden chair is attached to large wheels at its side and two smaller wheels in front. The large wheels at the side allow the user to move it - though with some difficulty. A wheelchair adds mobility to those who have lost legs or the ability to walk. Use the following table to determine strength checks to move.

    Code:
    DC                   Condition
    10               Roll 30ft. on a flat surface
    15               Roll 60ft. on a flat surface
    20               Roll 15ft. up a sloped surface (30 degree)
    25               Roll 30ft. up a sloped surface (30 degree)
    Further conditions and checks should be accounted for by the DM. In general, you may take 10 on any Strength check regarding moving the wheelchair.

    While moving the wheelchair, you must use both hands. Using only one hand unbalances the chair. By making a dexterity check, DC 15, you may make a strength check (with a -5 penalty) to move the chair with one hand.

    You may double-move with the chair, but by doing so you increase the DC by +5.

    New feat

    Wheelchair Ace
    You've grown accustomed to being in a wheelchair, enabling you to maneuver it quicker.
    Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on your Strength check to move the wheelchair, and can run in the wheelchair (taking the same penalty as double moving).
    Normal: Users cannot take a run action in a wheelchair.

    New Magic Item

    Wheelchair, Animated: This animated wheelchair has a move speed of 30ft., and obeys the user's verbal commands. The user is treated as Mounted instead of simply using an item, and the mount is always willing.

    The animated wheelchair uses the Animated Object statistics for a wheeled object. It is always the same size category as the user it was made for, and is able to carry the user's load even if it exceeds the Animated Object's normal carrying capacity.

    Cost: 14,000gp*, Create Wonderous Device, Animate Object.

    *A random guess
    Last edited by Obrysii; 2010-06-21 at 07:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psionic Dog View Post
    Thanks!
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    So... you're suggesting I lower the loss threshold somewhat? The point is for limb loss to occur only when struck half dead/killed and not for every single injury faced.

    As far as the Permanent Save DC the check is supposed to be higher than standard. It adds dramatic tension, with the first aid reduction check included to make up the difference. Still, I'll double check my math on how it scales.



    The others have it.
    Slashing damage? Severed.
    Crushing? Limb is mangled, and would heal in twisted withered club of an appendage: best amputate.
    Energy? The flesh was fried from the very bone. See crushing.
    Piercing? Ok, this makes sense for head/torso damage but less so for appendages. Still, I have faith my fellow DM's can find a creative reason.



    ... are we speaking of the same restoration? I see nothing there about limb regeneration. And yes, a wish or miracle would heal all temporary limb damage. I believe the relevant clause was "X healing or better."


    Now, a question for the others: Currently repairing permanent damage is harder than a Raise Dead but easier than a Resurrection. Is this too much? Should lesser magics be permitted to repair limb loss?
    Maybe he mean regeneration? Anyway I seriously feel weird on how it is easier to revive a dead person than regrow lost limbs. yeah, death doesn't really have much worth in DnD but in my mind it doesn't make sense.

    Hmm, how about some sort of magical damage or curse than can prevent regeneration by lesser magic. Maybe it will reduce the 'grit', I dunno. But hey, level 10 or more PCs are living legends comparable to mythical figures aren't they. They need something more than 'mundane' to debilitate them.
    Last edited by Salbazier; 2010-06-21 at 09:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    So... you're suggesting I lower the loss threshold somewhat? The point is for limb loss to occur only when struck half dead/killed and not for every single injury faced.
    Which makes it relatively useless; anything that's going to injure your limb is going to kill you.

    As far as the Permanent Save DC the check is supposed to be higher than standard. It adds dramatic tension, with the first aid reduction check included to make up the difference. Still, I'll double check my math on how it scales.
    I never mentioned the save DC. It's high enough nobody is going to ever make it, which I assumed was the point, much like the save to "lose a limb, not die" was clearly intended to be impossible to pass unless you're a very high level warrior who somehow got knocked barely beyond -11; if you got CDG'd while unconcious from the negatives, at level 1 you'd only pass on a 20, and even if you just got knocked to 11, a high con guy with a good base fort save would still only pass 50% of the time.

    The others have it.
    Slashing damage? Severed.
    Crushing? Limb is mangled, and would heal in twisted withered club of an appendage: best amputate.
    Energy? The flesh was fried from the very bone. See crushing.
    Piercing? Ok, this makes sense for head/torso damage but less so for appendages. Still, I have faith my fellow DM's can find a creative reason.
    This is my point... you're grasping at straws, which is very bad when you intend a "realistic" system. This is especially bad when you consider area of effect spells, or negative energy damage; even your explanations for electricity are very unrealistic for a "realistic" rule variant.

    ... are we speaking of the same restoration? I see nothing there about limb regeneration. And yes, a wish or miracle would heal all temporary limb damage. I believe the relevant clause was "X healing or better."
    I meant regeneration, sorry, this one was my bad.


    Now, a question for the others: Currently repairing permanent damage is harder than a Raise Dead but easier than a Resurrection. Is this too much? Should lesser magics be permitted to repair limb loss?
    Yes. It would be better to stab yourself in the face and get raised then be healed after getting permanent damage (not that I think permanent damage would *ever* occur in a real game; the only possible situation is if you get dropped to -11 or so, and even then you're unconcious so you'd just get CDG'd anyway). Well, the loss of a level could be bad, but it's better that than be totally useless if you lost an arm or something.

    EDIT: The wheelchair is kind of weird in that, since you can't take ten on strength checks, the average person is going to be, 50% of the time, rooted in place, and if you do rule you can take ten on strength checks, strong people would go around in wheelchairs because they are faster. Plus, since you can draw weapons as part of a move action anyway, you don't really lose anything by riding a wheelchair in combat, assuming you have a +14 strength bonus.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-06-21 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    EDIT: The wheelchair is kind of weird in that, since you can't take ten on strength checks, the average person is going to be, 50% of the time, rooted in place, and if you do rule you can take ten on strength checks, strong people would go around in wheelchairs because they are faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obrysii
    In general, you may take 10 on any Strength check regarding moving the wheelchair.
    Well, yeah. People might consider going around in a wheelchair regardless, just to go faster, but that's the case in real life, too, right?

    People don't like inconvenience. Sure, those who look only to mechanical boosts would use it - but who would seriously opt to use a wheelchair instead of walking from an RP or "realism" perspective?
    Pointing out hypocrisy is not disrespect.


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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Obrysii View Post
    Well, yeah. People might consider going around in a wheelchair regardless, just to go faster, but that's the case in real life, too, right?

    People don't like inconvenience. Sure, those who look only to mechanical boosts would use it - but who would seriously opt to use a wheelchair instead of walking from an RP or "realism" perspective?
    Anybody with a +5 strength bonus?

    RP is not a valid reason to explain imbalance, even if it is relatively minor (giving all strong melee units a 60 foot move speed).

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Which makes it relatively useless; anything that's going to injure your limb is going to kill you.
    I don't see this as so much of an issue -- whether rules exist for amputations or not, surviving them shouldn't be particularly easy.

    The usual points against called shots apply, however -- in order to realistically handle injuries to particular parts of the body, you have to be prepared to handle armour in more detail, and probably move away from the convenient assumption that armour either renders a blow ineffective or it does nothing at all.

    That already entails gutting and re-writing a fairly big chunk of the rules.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-06-21 at 12:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    I don't see this as so much of an issue -- whether rules exist for amputations or not, surviving them shouldn't be particularly easy.
    It's needless complexity. If we can assume magical healing, PCs above fifth level being beyond all but the strongest heroes (who aren't mary-sues, though that's debatable since PCs probably could beat up mary-sues by level 8 or 9), and add in the fact the saves to actually avoid death by injuring a limb are impossible, the system doesn't add anything to the game. Plus it punishes melee more than spellcasters, which is, again, not exactly good.

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    not being a huge rule monkey, i'm not sure if i can contribute all that much, however, limb/organ loss has popped up in my game, and perhaps that story will help


    PC rogue is attempting to pick the lock on a door, he fails miserably, triggering a needle storm trap onto his face

    he took something like 1d3 damage, and as i went to move on the player asked me
    "did i get hit in the eye"

    i proceeded to get the expression a DM gets when a player just gave them an idea (much to the chagrin of my player)


    so i had him roll a percent to see if he got hit (a simple 50/50 shot, he either got hit in the eye, or he didn't)

    he made it, no eye poking.

    -helpful part-
    if he HAD been struck in the eye, i simply would have ruled his character has lost the eye, and may or may not incur spot check penalities (most likely would have, - 1 or -2 )
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    Quote Originally Posted by big teej View Post
    not being a huge rule monkey, i'm not sure if i can contribute all that much, however, limb/organ loss has popped up in my game, and perhaps that story will help


    PC rogue is attempting to pick the lock on a door, he fails miserably, triggering a needle storm trap onto his face

    he took something like 1d3 damage, and as i went to move on the player asked me
    "did i get hit in the eye"

    i proceeded to get the expression a DM gets when a player just gave them an idea (much to the chagrin of my player)


    so i had him roll a percent to see if he got hit (a simple 50/50 shot, he either got hit in the eye, or he didn't)

    he made it, no eye poking.

    -helpful part-
    if he HAD been struck in the eye, i simply would have ruled his character has lost the eye, and may or may not incur spot check penalities (most likely would have, - 1 or -2 )
    Losing an eye for taking a couple damage is... well, it depends on the level. At level 1, taking a few damage could have been reasonable, but beyond that, 2 damage is such a small amount it isn't really a wound at all.

    If you meant he temporarily got penalties, and not that he flat out lost his eye permanently, then it would be reasonable, but I just don't see the point of permanently costing a player his eye (even if at very low penalties) for such small amounts of damage.

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    It's needless complexity. If we can assume magical healing, PCs above fifth level being beyond all but the strongest heroes (who aren't mary-sues, though that's debatable since PCs probably could beat up mary-sues by level 8 or 9), and add in the fact the saves to actually avoid death by injuring a limb are impossible, the system doesn't add anything to the game. Plus it punishes melee more than spellcasters, which is, again, not exactly good.
    I assumed you meant from a realism perspective (i.e. that it's not very realistic to have vast numbers of characters survive limb loss).

    The reason these rules weren't in the book was because realistic limb loss carries no real benefit without heavily re-writing the system, in the same way as called shots don't.

    That doesn't have to stop you using such rules in your games, however, even though it is a lot of work for little real benefit.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-06-21 at 02:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Obrysii: Nice idea on the wheel chair, but a 60ft movement speed doesn't sound right. A 60ft double move is as fast as a commoner running the quarter mile dash, and in a setting where smooth surfaces would be rare and any fine workmanship often blended with magic it probably wouldn't happen by a mundane chair.

    Maybe...
    Wheel Chair: This contraption provides mobility to creatures with double leg loss. A creature in a wheel chair may push themselves on level ground at 1/2 speed as long as one arm is used to push. This increases to 2/3 speed if moving down hill and slows to 1/3 speed if moving up hill.

    A creature in a wheel chair may alternately be pushed by another. The pusher is considered to by carrying 1/4 the pushed characters weight on a smooth surface or 1/2 the pushed characters weight on a rough surface.

    Cost: 200 gp.


    Milskidasith:
    I don't think we're quite seeing eye to eye, and I can't figure out what it is you're complaining about.

    Limb Loss equals death? Are you trying to tell me that the conditions of loss are so high that you think a character will be killed by anything that damages a limb, or that in your view in any realistic system loosing a limb should result in instant death? I'm afraid I have to disagree on both counts.

    And grasping at straws at damage types? No not really, and everyone else seems to feel the same way. Sure someone could make tables of what types of damage do what types of penalties, but I'm not trying to publish a book just yet and feel that level of detail isn't worth the extra complexity. The idea was to add more realism and grit in a rule package small enough for someone could memorize, not to provide perfect realism in a system that requires an index.

    Now, what was that with getting stabbed in the face? A Raise Dead has a market value of 5,450 gp and you loose XP. A Regenerate casting has a market value of 910 gp and no xp loss. (values found from Spell Casting Services chart in PHB) I can't see the advantage.

    It looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on a lot of this stuff.


    Now, about the Cost of Recovery:
    I've been convinced. My original thinking was that by RAW raising the dead truly is easier than replacing a lost limb, and so wanted to keep this as close to RAW as possible. However as noted, RAW is frequently thematically stupid and in this case ought to be modified.

    Lesser Restoration: Can accelerate the healing of a single limb or organ suffering temporary damage by 1d4 days per casting. A DC 15 heal check may be made at the same time to replicate long term care so as to effectively double the bonus healing.

    Restoration: Can instantly heal a single limb or organ suffering temporary damage, or cause a single permanently damaged limb/organ to rejuvenate over the course of a single nights rest (4 hours). Can be duplicated by Limited Wish.

    Greater Restoration: As Restoration, but provides healing to all damaged limbs or organs.

    On Called Shots:
    It was noted as an optionally to this variant for a reason. People like making called shots, but others like armor pieces. It's not for everyone and is not essential to this rule variant.

    I'm currently working on an entire DnD project rule re-write, so maybe someday I'll have a section on called shots and armor protection, but today isn't that day.
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Losing an eye for taking a couple damage is... well, it depends on the level. At level 1, taking a few damage could have been reasonable, but beyond that, 2 damage is such a small amount it isn't really a wound at all.

    If you meant he temporarily got penalties, and not that he flat out lost his eye permanently, then it would be reasonable, but I just don't see the point of permanently costing a player his eye (even if at very low penalties) for such small amounts of damage.
    well, when i read "needle strorm" i think 'large ninja throwing needles' not 'sewing needles'

    and I really don't want to sound sarcastic, but for the life of me i cannot think of another way to word this (it may have something to do with the rack of ribs i'm eating )

    but!
    i'm fairly positive if bob had a needle propelled through his eye, he wouldn't be able to see anymore.

    -potentially off topic rambling-
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    and (obviously, given the way the game is) everyone does it differently, from the moment he asked that question, everyone at the table knew that if he got hit in the eye, he'd probably lose it till he could cop a regen out of some priest.

    my players know that when i sit down behind the screen that while my world might not make sense all the time, i'm certainly going to try. they also know i use several ideas/systems/beliefs that our other dms don't or won't.
    for instance, a player in my group doesn't subscribe to the paladins MUST BE lawful good, but he knows in my world, they DO. and he's okay with that, cause he knows it ahead of time, and it's my world. and take my other dm buddy, he doesn't run domain spells, not a problem, i know ahead of time.
    in my worlds, basically anything you can justify to me goes. .... i'm going to go back to my ribs now, as i have forgotten where i was going with this
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    Quote Originally Posted by big teej View Post
    well, when i read "needle strorm" i think 'large ninja throwing needles' not 'sewing needles'

    and I really don't want to sound sarcastic, but for the life of me i cannot think of another way to word this (it may have something to do with the rack of ribs i'm eating )

    but!
    i'm fairly positive if bob had a needle propelled through his eye, he wouldn't be able to see anymore.

    -potentially off topic rambling-
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    and (obviously, given the way the game is) everyone does it differently, from the moment he asked that question, everyone at the table knew that if he got hit in the eye, he'd probably lose it till he could cop a regen out of some priest.

    my players know that when i sit down behind the screen that while my world might not make sense all the time, i'm certainly going to try. they also know i use several ideas/systems/beliefs that our other dms don't or won't.
    for instance, a player in my group doesn't subscribe to the paladins MUST BE lawful good, but he knows in my world, they DO. and he's okay with that, cause he knows it ahead of time, and it's my world. and take my other dm buddy, he doesn't run domain spells, not a problem, i know ahead of time.
    in my worlds, basically anything you can justify to me goes. .... i'm going to go back to my ribs now, as i have forgotten where i was going with this
    The thing is, at higher levels, losing an eye is not adequately represented by 1d3 damage. If you have 100 HP, you simply wouldn't get hit in the eye by getting hit for three damage.

    Think about it this way: If you were level 1, getting hit for 25 damage from a mace would probably involve the enemy playing golf with your head, while at level 20 getting hit for 25 damage would probably involve the enemy giving you a glancing whack on one of the more heavily armed points on your armor. Same with the needles; at level 1, 1d3 might be enough for it to seem relevant (with a roll of a 3 and very low con), but higher than that, permanently losing your eye is like, well, having your head knocked off by a low damage blow; the damage done is very disproportionate to the result.

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    The thing is, at higher levels, losing an eye is not adequately represented by 1d3 damage. If you have 100 HP, you simply wouldn't get hit in the eye by getting hit for three damage.

    Think about it this way: If you were level 1, getting hit for 25 damage from a mace would probably involve the enemy playing golf with your head, while at level 20 getting hit for 25 damage would probably involve the enemy giving you a glancing whack on one of the more heavily armed points on your armor. Same with the needles; at level 1, 1d3 might be enough for it to seem relevant (with a roll of a 3 and very low con), but higher than that, permanently losing your eye is like, well, having your head knocked off by a low damage blow; the damage done is very disproportionate to the result.
    aha, i understand

    would it help at all if i said this was a level 1 homebrew ninja thingy? (if memory serves correctly, d6 hit die)
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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    This is an excellent post. Thank you.
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    Any & all advice and opinions, and votes, are welcome

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    Quote Originally Posted by big teej View Post
    aha, i understand

    would it help at all if i said this was a level 1 homebrew ninja thingy? (if memory serves correctly, d6 hit die)
    That makes it more reasonable, yes. I wasn't sure of the level of the character; at level 1, you are fairly frail, if still somewhat above average.

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Okay, I like this rules variant. I've decided to use it for my upcoming fighter fix. I just want to make sure you're okay with this before I post it. I'm going to credit you and link to your thread.

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    Default Re: Limb Loss [3.5 Rule Varient] [PEACH]

    Arcane spell failure as penelty to arm damage?
    If you have broken bones do you need concentration check?

    However i like it. I'd see more from you :)
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