D&D 3.5 Tyranid Monster Class v0.2.3 - PEACH

[whoiam]

On the other points: I was basing the spore launcher on Spore Cysts rather than full-size Biovores. Possibly I should add a more expensive Biovore mod that gives you more... and greater range?

I'll think about the melee acid and poison.

[Cadian 9th]

On the other points: I was basing the spore launcher on Spore Cysts rather than full-size Biovores. Possibly I should add a more expensive Biovore mod that gives you more... and greater range?

I'll think about the melee acid and poison.

Nice work, whoiam, though one thing: Psionics. How do Tyranids use psionics, at their HD level or do they get bonus PP. I would love to play a Genestealer psyker...

Dante

[whoiam]

Now people start to see the reason my version numbering started at 0.1. I haven't addressed psionics and/or magic yet, and I *will*.

Just as soon as I've worked out how I'm going to handle it...

[Cadian 9th]

Now people start to see the reason my version numbering started at 0.1. I haven't addressed psionics and/or magic yet, and I *will*.

Just as soon as I've worked out how I'm going to handle it...

Yeah, I Figured. Let me know, I'd love to help out!

Dante

[whoiam]

Okay, let's see how this grabs you all:

Taking a Tyranid HD counts towards any one Casting, Manifesting, Initiating, Truenaming etc class of your choice for the purposes of caster/manifester/initiator etc level and spells, power points, maneuvers etc per day - but not for spells/maneuvers/etc known, nor to determine the highest level spell/power/whatever that can be learned or cast/manifested/whatever.

For the low, low cost of +1 LA, Tyranid HD will instead count as full progression for one caster/manifester/etc class.

For a further +2 LA, Tyranid HD will allow dual progression in two caster/manifester/whatever classes.

So to have your Tyranid HD acting as a superior form of Mystic Theurge, Psychic Theurge etc costs +3 LA, but to have it acting as a full advancement prestige class for a single casting class costs only +1.

What do you think?

[Oslecamo]

What do you think?

Overpowered if not plainly broken.

Cleric 1/tyranid 19? Yes please. Clerics automatically know all the spells on their list so you just need one dip and get some monstruosity with full cleric casting and pretty much all of the nid goodies(including+9 to wis). Ditto for begiller and any other caster class that automatically knows all their spell list. Oh and you don't need to spend money on armor and defensive items, so go wild in metamagic rods, pearls of power and extra scrolls.

Wizards don't automatically know all spells on their list, but since they don't need to bother about buying rings of protection and cloacks of resistance anymore they can spend that money on scrolls to learn spells and still come ahead with +9 int, full Bab and everything else the nid class offers.

Really, the only limitation is that if you're taking nid levels you're not taking hax prc levels, but even then, caster1/nid4/hax prc 15 would still be an automatic choice, using the two nid levels for full BAB and an extra +2 to your casting stat and +2 to Con.

May I sugest the inverse method like I use in my class monsters, where monster levels count towards the highest spell level you can cast and caster level, but not for actual spell slots?

[whoiam]

Well, technically that would be Cleric 1/Tyranid 18. If you took Cleric 1/Tyranid 19, then you'd have access to as many 0th and 1st level spells as a Cleric 20, and cast them at an effective caster level of 20, but you would have nothing from levels 2-9.

Now, the LA+1 cost of having full advancement in one xxx class means you'd spend half your advancement casting spells a level beneath those of your colleagues.

Whearas the LA+3 requirement of having dual advancement means for most of the run you'd be either one or two spell levels behind your colleagues.


Now, I'm not saying those aren't cheap - there's a reason I haven't added this to the OP yet (namely being that it just came off the top of my head and even I don't think it's ready yet) - but they're not quite free, either.

[Oslecamo]

Well, technically that would be Cleric 1/Tyranid 18. If you took Cleric 1/Tyranid 19, then you'd have access to as many 0th and 1st level spells as a Cleric 20, and cast them at an effective caster level of 20, but you would have nothing from levels 2-9.

You're confusing magic with psionics. As a vancian caster all you need is a spell slot and a spell known of the apropriate level. If you have both you can cast the spell.

By your wording right now, I do get spell slots of level 2-9 as well whitout taking any LA at all. Then cleric gives me all spell known of the cleric list with a single level. In practise I get fullspelcasting whitout need of the LA.

If your intention is as you said, then you'll have to get a better wording on that, as right now it only stops abuse from the classes that learn new spells every level like the sorceror and psion.

[jiriku]

I like them.
Interesting trivia: Hormagaunts, in the old fluff, reproduced sexually.

Which means you can ship them!

[Lix Lorn]

Which means you can ship them!

You don't understand shipping, do you?

You think I didn't before?

[whoiam]

You're confusing magic with psionics. As a vancian caster all you need is a spell slot and a spell known of the apropriate level. If you have both you can cast the spell.

By your wording right now, I do get spell slots of level 2-9 as well whitout taking any LA at all. Then cleric gives me all spell known of the cleric list with a single level. In practise I get fullspelcasting whitout need of the LA.

If your intention is as you said, then you'll have to get a better wording on that, as right now it only stops abuse from the classes that learn new spells every level like the sorceror and psion.

Now, technically *my* wording did hint in that direction ('nor to determine the highest level spell that can be learned or cast'), but it would not hurt to make this more explicite.

Spoiler

Show

Taking a Tyranid HD counts towards any one Casting, Manifesting, Initiating, Truenaming etc class of your choice for the purposes of caster/manifester/initiator etc level and spells, power points, maneuvers etc per day - but not for spells/maneuvers/etc known, nor to determine the highest level spell/power/whatever that can be learned or cast/manifested/whatever.

Tyranid HD do not grant spell slots of a higher spell level than the highest the Tyranid qualifies for due to class levels, unless one of the LA options below are employed.

For the low, low cost of +1 LA, Tyranid HD will instead count as full progression for one caster/manifester/etc class.

For a further +2 LA, Tyranid HD will allow dual progression in two caster/manifester/whatever classes.

[Volthawk]

Question: What are the class skills for the Tyranid?

[whoiam]

Yup, I forgot those!

Okay... Autohypnosis, Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival, Tumble.

If you add the 'stalker' package, you can add Hide and Move Silently to that list.

If you pay LA to add a casting, manifesting etc class to the Tyranid advancement, then you can add the relevant Knowledge skill (Religion, Arcana, etc) and the relevant 'Craft' skill (Spellcraft, Psicraft, etc). If the class in question lacks one or both of these skills, you go without. If it has more than one skill in the equivalent roles, you can only take one of each (player's choice which).

[Lix Lorn]

You should probably put them in the OP.
Also, just to mention, I really like the fluff on the character 'trix.

[Draconi Redfir]

just a little stupid here, is this a PC race or a monster encounter? XD

[whoiam]

You should probably put them in the OP.
Also, just to mention, I really like the fluff on the character 'trix.

When I get back to my own computer so I can update the master copy they will be.

just a little stupid here, is this a PC race or a monster encounter? XD

Intended as a PC race, but it'd work as both.

Considering the flexibility of the race, you could conceivably have an entire campaign based on fighting varieties of Tyranids;) Although that may get a touch boring unless done really well.

[NecroticPunch]

How long until you come up with a way to make us able to play as Zoanthropes T.T

[whoiam]

I think Zoanthropes are just a touch too specialised for me to add to the rules here, seeing as how they are effectively a floating brain with a little bit of body hanging off the bottom.

Maybe you'd care to come up with a Zoanthrope Prestige Class for any Tyranid that manifests psychic powers? Or maybe I'll do it myself when this lot's done.

Either way, it's not exactly at the top of my priorities list.

[NecroticPunch]

I suppose that I could give it a shot :/

[Lix Lorn]

How long until you come up with a way to make us able to play as Zoanthropes T.T

Take the manifesting option, take wings that Count As Floating tails, and homebrew a feat to turn your ranged touch attack into a force attack. And boom.
You have a Warp Blast.

Creative 'counts as' makes things easy.

Wait, is Force the fifth standard energy type?

[whoiam]

Nope. Acid, Fire, Lightning, Cold, and Sonic.

[Lix Lorn]

Sonic! Yes. Thank you.
Would a feat to allow you to use Force as a resistance/energy ray be viable?

[whoiam]

Okay, then. I've got two outstanding questions I'd like you to address before I move on to version 0.2:

First up, who thinks the 'regeneration' option should be LA +1, and who thinks +2?

Second up, the prices of having full progression for one or two casting classes - currently set at LA+1 and LA+3. Too low, Too High, or Just Right?

[Lix Lorn]

I think +1 for regeneration, considering how many weaknesses, and that they also have fast healing-but question. If you're dealt lethal damage, can you still use Fast Healing to heal it? Or does Reneration replace Fast Healing?

Too low, I think.

[Cadian 9th]

I think +1 for regeneration, considering how many weaknesses, and that they also have fast healing-but question. If you're dealt lethal damage, can you still use Fast Healing to heal it? Or does Reneration replace Fast Healing?

Too low, I think.

Regeneration makes all damage dealt to you non-lethal damage, then heals damage. That can be seriously awsome. /Dante

[Lix Lorn]

Only Chaotic and magical attacks, attacks using one of the two energy types against which the Tyranid has the lowest resistance (player's choice if there is a draw, this choice cannot be altered once made) or spells or powers with the 'chaotic' descriptor bypass Regeneration

That's a LOT of weaknesses. Especially magic.

Also, I'm concerned about the energy rays. It doesn't seem right that you should be able to do damage with them through High Strength.

[whoiam]

Remember, the listed Fast Healing speed for Tyranids gives them HD hp per hour, so it's no good for healing during battle.

So, then, how about +2 (Always one spell level behind) and +4 (always two spell levels behind)?

Anyway, let's make this easy. Here's my original proposed prices for each feature:

{table=head]Person|Regeneration|One Class Progression|Two Class Progression
whoiam|+1|+1|+3
[/table]

Just quote the table and add your own line. I'll take the average once I've got a few responses.

[Duskranger]

Seems to me that at least the standard Tyranid is quite ready.

I mean this creature can own a lot in Gestalt. If you ever need a playtester count me in .

If you put it this way you could have with 1 LA

A Tyranid with 3 minor limbs, 4 major limbs, D8 HD

Where you use two of the minor limbs to get flying. 2 major limbs will be weapons (In my case I would say Excellent Natural weapon+ Oversized) the tail for swimming and just for the fun opposable thumbs.
Two major limbs off course with walking, combined with natural weapon and Oversized.

I would like to play something like this.

[whoiam]

I think my 'prototype' Tyranid, 'trix, would come out as...

Base Tyranid (LA+0)
2 Major Limbs (LA+1)
4 Minor Limbs (LA+1)
Stalker (LA+1)

With the limbs breaking down as:
Upper Arms and Legs (Major Limbs 1, 2, 3 and 4) - Walking (1 point), Climbing (1 point), Thumbs (1 point) and Minor Natural Weapon (1 point)
Lower Arms (Minor Limbs 1 and 2) - Walking (1 point), Thumbs (1 point)
Tail (Minor Limb 3) - Natural Weapon (2 points)
Scythe-blade Claws (Major Limbs 5 and 6) - Excellent Natural Weapon (3 points), Oversize Natural Weapon (1 point)
Mandibles (Minor Limbs 4 and 5) - Natural Weapon (2 points)

So she's maxxed out on Limbs, but nowhere near as powerful as a Tyranid *could* be. Which is appropriate, because she's supposed to be most closely related to Lictors.

[Duskranger]

I think my 'prototype' Tyranid, 'trix, would come out as...

Base Tyranid (LA+0)
2 Major Limbs (LA+1)
4 Minor Limbs (LA+1)
Stalker (LA+1)

With the limbs breaking down as:
Upper Arms and Legs (Major Limbs 1, 2, 3 and 4) - Walking (1 point), Climbing (1 point), Thumbs (1 point) and Minor Natural Weapon (1 point)
Lower Arms (Minor Limbs 1 and 2) - Walking (1 point), Thumbs (1 point)
Tail (Minor Limb 3) - Natural Weapon (2 points)
Scythe-blade Claws (Major Limbs 5 and 6) - Excellent Natural Weapon (3 points), Oversize Natural Weapon (1 point)
Mandibles (Minor Limbs 4 and 5) - Natural Weapon (2 points)

So she's maxxed out on Limbs, but nowhere near as powerful as a Tyranid *could* be. Which is appropriate, because she's supposed to be most closely related to Lictors.

Still if we would be both ECL 5 who would win of us .