GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III

[Morph Bark]

You think too small. What you should have said was:

I got the image of a Large thornshade with a patch of hollow haunter-infested pumpkins on its back with Doom Moss on those and Bloodsplitters on those riding on an infected vampire Tarrasque...now I want to try that out, too bad my players are only level 1.

HMMM...

How about we have a bloodsplitter carry a Huge thornshade carrying a Colossal dry lich Tarrasque, all of which are covered in Doom Moss?

Wait, where we going for horror or comedy? Is this competition the Scary Movie of plant-based campaign ideas? If so, we need more aliens from outer space.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

There really needs to be an evil face emote.

I'd be so happy with just an eyebrow lifting or rolling eyes one.

OOH! OOH! PICK ME! Public, if you'd be so kind.

Spoiler

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Hit Dice: 24d8+148 (252 hp)

Unless I missed a modifier, extra HP would be 130 instead of 148.

Average HP would be 238.

24 (HD) x 4.5 (half d8) + 24 (HD) x 5 (Con mod) + 10 (Improved Toughness) = 238

Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+24

Grapple would be 28.

18 (BAB) + 6 (Str mod) + 4 (Improved Grapple)

Feats: Ability focus (consumptive florification), improved natural attack (slam), improved toughness, power attack, improved initiative, combat reflexes, improved grapple, dodge, mobility

Though I know you may have just been using it for a filler feat, improved natural attack is a dead feat since you can make their attack anything you want it to be. Is intended as a feat to give to creatures you improve by HD when you make them bigger and stronger.

Consumptive Florification (Su):

At the end just need to add, 'The save DC is Constitution-based.'

Cloak of Darkness (Su): A thornshade is constantly surrounded by pitch blackness that not even true seeing can penetrate.

How about spells that see through magical darkness?


This fellow has a background full of potential, but the crunch ends up being a bit bland and doesn't seem to match the fluff at all.

They're big bad sorcerers who crave power and were pursuers of magical power yet all their abilities could be that of a creature with an Int of 0. All it does is feed and has feats to help it feed. They have no magical abilities whatsoever despite their sorcerous background. Nor does anything they do seem to grant them power besides that of physical ability.

Why would any of them become one of these voluntarily? And as the making of one suggests, they don't do it voluntarily often, if ever, but if such is the case, who would bother? The thing can't be controlled by them, and it loses most of its most powerful abilities. Seems like a waste of magical potential.

I can't help but think you should make this a template instead, or at least give it a sorcerer spell progression.

Something to justify its existence and the effort gone to make it.

[unosarta]

HMMM...

How about we have a bloodsplitter carry a Huge thornshade carrying a Colossal dry lich Tarrasque, all of which are covered in Doom Moss?

Wait, where we going for horror or comedy? Is this competition the Scary Movie of plant-based campaign ideas? If so, we need more aliens from outer space.

Huge? You're thinking too small! Colossal++ Bloodsplitter carrying a Colossal ++ Thornshade, carrying a Colossal +++ dry lich, dracolich, ghost, feral Tarrasque, all of which are covered in doom moss which is lit on fire by a continual flame spell.

I am not sure now that you mention it. On their own, each is pretty scary, but when combined they just get ridiculous. Also, calling it now, the next entry will be alien plants. >_>

I'd be so happy with just an eyebrow lifting or rolling eyes one.

Actually, an eyebrow lifting one would be pretty nice, especially since it is pretty hard to recreate in regular text, let alone forum emotes.

[Debihuman]

Lore checks start with 10 + Monster's HD. This information can be found in Skills Knowledge check. Doom Moss, Pumpkin King and Hollow Hunter should revise their charts.

Creatures normally increase in size when they double their hit dice. I'm seeing a lot of odd advancements here.

If a creature doesn't move it's speed should be Speed: 0 ft. (immobile).

Balanced creatures normally have an appropriate number of Special Abilities to match their HD. I'm see a lot of imbalances in both directions -- too few and too many. A good balance is 1 Special ability per HD [not including ones that come from the creature's Type].

All Plant creatures possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Low-light vision.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
* Not subject to critical hits.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep.


Unfortunately, I don't have time to do a full critique of everyone's creatures. I'm going to give an abbreviated version.

Bloodspitter has natural armor +12, which seems a little excessive. Is it armor plated or something? You should probably explain that in the fluff somewhere. I'm not entirely sure you need the Amphibious subtype since it doesn't have the Aquatic type. You could just say that they breathe both air and water. Where can I find information about the Plane of Orsa?

The major problem with the Doom Moss is that it doesn't really qualify as a "creature." It is really just a Hazard and too easy to avoid. If you recognize it, you just walk around it without touching it. How difficult is this to Spot? It might be underpowered for CR 5. I like the Fire Growth ability (missed that earlier). However, it is fairly easy to overcome. Just cast acid arrow or launch vials of acid from 10 feet until it is dead. You are out of range from its infect ability.

Thornshade probably has too many HD. There just isn't anything particularly epic about it to warrant the 24 HD. If you halved the HD you'd have a more balanced monster. I don't see this as much of a challenge for CR 18. Since it is made from the souls of spellcasters, it should probably have a few spell-like abilities.

Calling a pumpkin king's attacks "tentacles" seems a little strange. Perhaps these should be slam attacks like an assassin vine. It has 9 HD and should have 4 feats so it still is missing a standard feat.

Conversely, the Hollow Hunter doesn't have enough HD. 4 HD are too low to justify the number of special abilities it has. It should have at least 10 more HD.

Debby

[PersonMan]

On Lore checks-In the later Monster Manuals, the ones with handy-dandy lore tables, appear(at least as far as I remember, I'm AFB at the moment) to use 10+CR rather than 10+HD.

As for the obstacle thing...well, it's easy to deal with once you know how to do so. If you don't, it can be a lot more dangerous, and if you mess up badly enough you don't get a chance to try again with the right tricks.

It's as easy to spot as normal(albeit fast-growing) moss. Telling the difference is the problem.

[Debihuman]

It's 10 + HD for Knowledge (See online SRD here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

Debby

[Morph Bark]

Creatures normally increase in size when they double their hit dice. I'm seeing a lot of odd advancements here.

I've seen both that in official content and 1.5x startin HD = size increase. In my eyes the second one seemed to suit my critter better.

Conversely, the Hollow Hunter doesn't have enough HD. 4 HD are too low to justify the number of special abilities it has. It should have at least 10 more HD.

10?! Really? What exactly are you counting as "special abilities" here, then? I wouldn't call the skill bonuses or weaknesses special abilities, myself, for one.

Also, as a minor, but delicate note, it's haunter, not hunter. Only a minor difference is spelling, but it can mean a large difference in meaning.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'd be so happy with just an eyebrow lifting...

Lore checks start with 10 + Monster's HD. This information can be found in Skills Knowledge check. Doom Moss, Pumpkin King and Hollow Hunter should revise their charts.

*Mutters something about nitpicking *

Calling a pumpkin king's attacks "tentacles" seems a little strange. Perhaps these should be slam attacks like an assassin vine.

Perhaps, though unless there's a more concrete reason than that I think I'll leave it. I personally think "tentacles" fits better, so I guess it's just down to personal taste?

It has 9 HD and should have 4 feats so it still is missing a standard feat.

*Counts up* ...dammit!

Thanks for the critique though!

[Debihuman]

I've seen both that in official content and 1.5x startin HD = size increase. In my eyes the second one seemed to suit my critter better.

I was pointing out a good rule of thumb for making monsters easy to pug-and-play. Of course, you are free to do anything you want.

10?! Really? What exactly are you counting as "special abilities" here, then? I wouldn't call the skill bonuses or weaknesses special abilities, myself, for one.

You add the Special Attacks and Special Qualities for the total number of Special Abilities. You can discount Plant traits and the Vulnerability to Force but the rest are considerably powerful.

It's clear that you aren't really interested in constructive criticism and so I won't bother continuing. I do apologize for my typo on the creature's name.

Remember please that this is a contest. Better entries get more votes.

Debby

[squeekenator]

Spoiler

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Unless I missed a modifier, extra HP would be 130 instead of 148.

Average HP would be 238.

24 (HD) x 4.5 (half d8) + 24 (HD) x 5 (Con mod) + 10 (Improved Toughness) = 238

Improved Toughness gives 1 hp per hit dice.

Grapple would be 28.

18 (BAB) + 6 (Str mod) + 4 (Improved Grapple)

Ooops, forgot to add the improved grapple bonus in. Done.

Though I know you may have just been using it for a filler feat, improved natural attack is a dead feat since you can make their attack anything you want it to be. Is intended as a feat to give to creatures you improve by HD when you make them bigger and stronger.

I mainly took it because 1d8 is usually the cap for medium slam damage. Getting it higher than that requires some sort of justification, and I couldn't think of any reason for the thornshade to have exceptionally powerful slam attacks.

At the end just need to add, 'The save DC is Constitution-based.'

Done.

How about spells that see through magical darkness?

Nothing. True Seeing mentions in its description that the subject sees through all normal and magical darkness, so if that doesn't work then other spells that see through darkness won't either.

They're big bad sorcerers who crave power and were pursuers of magical power yet all their abilities could be that of a creature with an Int of 0. All it does is feed and has feats to help it feed. They have no magical abilities whatsoever despite their sorcerous background. Nor does anything they do seem to grant them power besides that of physical ability.

I was considering giving them spell-like abilities, but they do have two defining supernatural abilities to make them feel magical. I'm also a bit wary of giving them proper spellcasting, because they're supposed to act almost like vampires, stalking someone then dragging them into the shadows to feed off them. If they kept their full casting ability they would have no reason to fight like that, and would instead fly around the countryside flinging fireballs at everything. I suppose it couldn't hurt to give them a few nifty spells that help them to hunt, though. I'll do that now.

Why would any of them become one of these voluntarily? And as the making of one suggests, they don't do it voluntarily often, if ever, but if such is the case, who would bother? The thing can't be controlled by them, and it loses most of its most powerful abilities. Seems like a waste of magical potential.

Same reason you would cast Apocalypse from the Sky, even though it damages you and costs you an artifact. It may inconvenience you, but the immense and indiscriminate damage it does to everything else justifies that cost to some. They certainly aren't created often, but they aren't really meant to be common.

[unosarta]

Bloodspitter has natural armor +12, which seems a little excessive. Is it armor plated or something? You should probably explain that in the fluff somewhere. I'm not entirely sure you need the Amphibious subtype since it doesn't have the Aquatic type. You could just say that they breathe both air and water. Where can I find information about the Plane of Orsa?

Debby

Oh, I think I was just trying to get it in line with what the MM says a normal creature of a certain CR's AC is supposed to be, but with Body of Slime, I suppose that isn't really necessary.

The Plane of Orsa is a plane created by VorpalTribble for the last PrC contest, I will link it in the entry.

[Morph Bark]

It's clear that you aren't really interested in constructive criticism and so I won't bother continuing. I do apologize for my typo on the creature's name.

Remember please that this is a contest. Better entries get more votes.

Debby

Please don't misunderstand. I appreciate the critique and am fully aware of the nature of the competition, I was just rather shocked at the idea that 10 HD would be more appropriate for it. I haven't ever seen such rules-of-thumb before, so I just go by with what feels right. More abilities to me are just to make a monster more interesting and/or connect fluff with crunch.

I apologize if I came across as rude. When things are pointed out for my stuff I usually want to provide a reason for why I did something.


EDIT: I increased the HD of the hollow haunter to 8 and modified saves, attack bonus, skills and Lore checks appropriately. Hope I didn't miss anything...

[fangthane]

My contribution is in; please feel free to offer constructive criticism and error-checking if you like. I've done my best to make sure the latest batch of micro-adjustments got captured but I have a nasty tendency of missing things so I wouldn't be surprised if one or two numbers don't add up properly. Oh, and I make it a point of pride to make creatures which break 'standard' rules of D&D but which usually break them both for and against enough to fit anyhow. VT probably remembers that. Probably also remembers that I absolutely love a party hijack. ;)

Offhand, I'd offer the following notes:
Lore checks are inflated to 10+maxCR base because of its alien nature; however, it's such an oddity that any mention will have hit a bard's radar, so near-impossible BK checks can determine some aspects.
CR increases on advancement aren't consistent with 1/4 HD because frankly this beastie's threat isn't based on HD so much as it is on its sheer whupassitude and extras. Don't blame me for that, blame the BBC. :)
I didn't include skills and feats because it inherits, but it's not a template nor should it be; think of it as similar to Giger's Alien, which also inherits certain of its traits from the host. In fact, I sort of wonder whether Alien borrowed from Doctor Who but that's another story. ;)
CR levels were based around taking a fighter of same-level against a vanilla (no feats/skills) version, so it may still be a little nasty; CR is baseline for each size category.

As I say though, while I've tried to break things in such a way that the whole thing works, I may have missed some things so feel free to pick on me - I can take it. :)

[SlaadLord]

My critter's up. Critiques and comments please?

[The Glyphstone]

*hobbles in, waving his cane around*

Well, sonnies, has it really been fifty of these here competitions? I used to be quite the 'brewer back in my day, and I made some pretty kickin' moonshine in my spare time too. Figured I'd come out of retirement for this anniversary though, so take a look at the Graveroot and tell me what you think?

[Debihuman]

Please don't misunderstand. I appreciate the critique and am fully aware of the nature of the competition, I was just rather shocked at the idea that 10 HD would be more appropriate for it. I haven't ever seen such rules-of-thumb before, so I just go by with what feels right. More abilities to me are just to make a monster more interesting and/or connect fluff with crunch.

I apologize if I came across as rude. When things are pointed out for my stuff I usually want to provide a reason for why I did something.


EDIT: I increased the HD of the hollow haunter to 8 and modified saves, attack bonus, skills and Lore checks appropriately. Hope I didn't miss anything...

Apology accepted.

Normally, I'd be shocked at telling someone they need more HD! I'm usually telling people to tone things down. In your case, I think that the special abilities are warranted. However, to justify that level of power, you really do need a commensurate number of Hit Dice. I thought I had sufficiently explained that but apparently not. Note to Self: Miscommunication does go both ways.

Now that you've made the changes, it needs more feats.

Good luck!

Debby

[HalfTangible]

I had a Jackal Lantern halfway typed up.

Then i saw someone had done the exact same thing and called it a pumpkin king. But better. Ah well. Something else might come up...

Must... think... of... something...

[Debihuman]

Fangthane:

For Stage I Krynoid (Pod)

Speed should be 0 ft. (immobile)

You forgot size modifier to AC. [Small size adds +1 to Attack and AC and -4 to Grapple].

It gets 1 feat and needs skills. Plants gain "Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the plant creature has an Intelligence score. However, some plant creatures are mindless and gain no skill points or feats."

It gets 15 skill ranks to work with for 2 HD. [3x4=12 +3 = 15].

For Stage II Krynoid (Parasite/Adult):

Challenge Rating should be listed only for the creature at hand. You can list how advancing the creature changes things in a separate section below the creature.

Lore is 10 + creature's HD as I've been mentioning. Should start at 12 not 22.

Next up:

*hobbles in, waving his cane around*

Well, sonnies, has it really been fifty of these here competitions? I used to be quite the 'brewer back in my day, and I made some pretty kickin' moonshine in my spare time too. Figured I'd come out of retirement for this anniversary though, so take a look at the Graveroot and tell me what you think?

I think it looks pretty good as is. I don't see any overt errors in the statblock.

Debby

[The Glyphstone]

*psst.* Edit posts instead of double-posting please? I'd feel guilty knocking someone with a Warning right after they gave me advice.

[Debihuman]

My critter's up. Critiques and comments please?

Since it takes several seconds for a horrorvine to germinate, is there a way to stop it before it is completed? Can this be interrupted in any way?

Otherwise, it looks pretty good.

Debby

[SlaadLord]

Added a vulnerability to the new growth. Thanks otherwise.

The Glyphstone: Looks good, a very sinister creature...slam attack might be a bit powerful, but otherwise...

[The Glyphstone]

Added a vulnerability to the new growth. Thanks otherwise.

The Glyphstone: Looks good, a very sinister creature...slam attack might be a bit powerful, but otherwise...

If it's too much, I can always take out Imp. Natural Attack and drop it to 1d8+5 instead. It's only a difference of about 4 damage/round on average though, from 12 down to 9.

[Debihuman]

*psst.* Edit posts instead of double-posting please? I'd feel guilty knocking someone with a Warning right after they gave me advice.

Oops, I've fixed it. Didn't even realize that I'd double posted since I was going back and using the quote feature. I'll watch that in the future.

Now, have I gotten to everyone's creature or is there one I missed? If I haven't gotten to it and it's complete, let me know. I generally wait until the creatures are complete before going over them.

Debby

[Morph Bark]

Apology accepted.

Normally, I'd be shocked at telling someone they need more HD! I'm usually telling people to tone things down. In your case, I think that the special abilities are warranted. However, to justify that level of power, you really do need a commensurate number of Hit Dice. I thought I had sufficiently explained that but apparently not. Note to Self: Miscommunication does go both ways.

Now that you've made the changes, it needs more feats.

Good luck!

Debby

Hah, thanks for the notice. Knew I had forgotten something! But that is always easier than to actually know what you forgot (then again, if you did, you wouldn't have forgotten it). I added the appropriate amount of feats and made Improved Grapple into a bonus feat since it otherwise would require Improved Unarmed Strike - and I don't see how a non-humanoid-or-giant creature could have that.


I also added to Knotting and Vine web on the vines' AC and hp, for a measure on how to take care of those abilities (at least for the while being: until the hollow haunter uses repossession).

Vorpal Tribble, if it isn't too much of a hassle for you, would you mind also reviewing my hollow haunter for me? It'd be much appreciated.


EDIT: Saw I had left in the "vine whip" ability in the special attacks listing on the statblock even though I had taken it out at the last moment before posting. It is now removed.

[SlaadLord]

The Glyphstone: I think that would be good. Improved Natural Attack is really more for advancing monsters anyway. Perhaps Power Attack? Oh, and your Initiative Modifier should be +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Imp. Initiative.)

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Vorpal Tribble, if it isn't too much of a hassle for you, would you mind also reviewing my hollow haunter for me? It'd be much appreciated.

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Initiative:

+2

Attack: Vine +7 melee (1d3+1)
Full Attack: Four vines +7 melee (1d3+1)

+8 melee
(BAB 6 + Size mod +1 + Str mod +1)

Ingesting 1 lbs of a dead hollow haunter's plant forces a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half the hollow haunter's HD + hollow haunter's Charisma modifier).

Not Constitution modifier? I know it doesn't have one, but saying it gets a +4 bonus or so would help it out. Just not sure Charisma really comes into it, the effect being a physical property of the plant.

Grip of death: The hollow haunter’s ghostly essence gives an unearthly strength to its vines. It has a +4 bonus on grapple checks.

I'd add to that: This stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple.

The creature must make a successful Strength of Escape Artist check with the DC set by the hollow haunter’s Use Rope check to break free.

Strength or Escape Artist

Repossession (Su): As a move action, a hollow haunter may exit their current body and enter another viable one within 15 feet. They may only enter plant bodies appropriate for their size and they keep the amount of damage they had already taken.

What defines 'viable'? Have some more questions once I know that.


All in all this is a really cool, if somewhat situational creature. Knotting and Vine web get my thumb's up for pretty unique abilities, and Vulnerability to Force isn't very often seen either.

[The Glyphstone]

The Glyphstone: I think that would be good. Improved Natural Attack is really more for advancing monsters anyway. Perhaps Power Attack? Oh, and your Initiative Modifier should be +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Imp. Initiative.)

Maybe, though that doesn't really fit its combat tactics - if it's in a straight-up fight, it's doing something wrong...a graveroot's attack bonus is too low to afford taking any penalties, since it's not aiming to do damage with its slam so much as use it to get people into a grapple. I'll give it Toughness instead.

[PersonMan]

It's 10 + HD for Knowledge (See online SRD here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)

[SRD quote]

Debby

I'm back with my books, so I'll quote the relevant stuff.

Monster Manual V offers a table of lore with each monster's entry. ... The baseline DC to identify a monster and remember one bit of information about its special abilities or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster's CR. (This is a change from the description of the Knowledge skill, PH 78.)

Glyphstone, I'd give it Improved Toughness, it'll help more.

[fangthane]

Fangthane:

For Stage I Krynoid (Pod)

Speed should be 0 ft. (immobile)

You forgot size modifier to AC. [Small size adds +1 to Attack and AC and -4 to Grapple].

Ahh, thanks. My attention to detail in some regards is a bit less than perfect, and I'd initially had it as medium but scaled it back a bit. :)

It gets 1 feat and needs skills. Plants gain "Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the plant creature has an Intelligence score. However, some plant creatures are mindless and gain no skill points or feats."

It gets 15 skill ranks to work with for 2 HD. [3x4=12 +3 = 15].

Hehe I was hoping to avoid this entirely because the thing's a spore pod, basically built to be a curiosity that sprouts and eats the neighborhood, but I suppose I can work on some proper skills :)

For Stage II Krynoid (Parasite/Adult):

Challenge Rating should be listed only for the creature at hand. You can list how advancing the creature changes things in a separate section below the creature.

Lore is 10 + creature's HD as I've been mentioning. Should start at 12 not 22.

I wasn't precisely sure how to get the CRs in there, will have to do some adjustment though - and I've actually come up with something which might work better for the Lore. Should have an update later, and thanks very much for the comments. :)

[The Glyphstone]

Glyphstone, I'd give it Improved Toughness, it'll help more.

I was going to at first, but that'd be non-SRD material. I guess it's not that difficult of a chore to vaguely detail what the feat does though.

Hehe I was hoping to avoid this entirely because the thing's a spore pod, basically built to be a curiosity that sprouts and eats the neighborhood, but I suppose I can work on some proper skills :)

Just give it ranks in Hide, if it's trying to be innocuous and inconspicuous.