D&D 3.5 - Juken Warrior

[Greyfeld]

So, I spent something like 3 hours typing up this class on another website. That being said, I would love to type it all up for you here in this thread for easy access, but considering it's as simple as clicking on a link, I hope that nobody is too lazy to just click here.

So, the name of the class is Juken Warrior. For all of you who aren't familiar with the name already (or for those of you who are, and just forgot), Juken means "Gentle Fist" and is the fighting style adopted by the Hyuuga family in the Naruto anime. I took the main idea for this class from the fighting style of that anime, and intermixed some ideas from the Monk class, as well as some of my own personal tweaks.

Please keep in mind that I'm not that great with balancing things properly, especially with my lack of experience in the near-epic area of D&D. So, if you see any balancing issues, feel free to politely bring them to my attention.

Aside from that, please give me your thoughts on this class I spent several hours writing up, and let me know if you think it needs anything.

Edit: I'd like to point out, before anybody else does, that unrestricted Bonus Feats might be a little overpowering for this class in its current form, but I'm not sure how best to restrict them yet, so I have yet to make that change. Also, I'm considering lowering the Reflex save. And the Juken technique is something I would like to have hit ethereal/incorporeal targets, but I'm not sure how to write that up since it currently requires a touch attack to trigger.

[Hamswordsman]

Any way you can copy and paste cause it is annoying cause we (myself included) are really lazy.

Anyways, I am also pretty bad with balancing so I am just going to stick with some stuff you might consider adding:

Rotation:I was thinking you use a standard action to go in a ready stance. Whenever any attack attempts to hit you, if it is ranged it bounces off harmlessly, if it is close do some sort of counter strike. If nothing attacks then it can just be released for aoe damage.

8 trigrams 64 palms: make it kind of like a big expenditure of chi to do a crazy flurry of blows though this seems rather difficult to balance

Byakugan: gives him 360 degree vision and makes it impossible to flank him and no bonus from invis attackers. Maybe at later levels it gives you truesight and such.

Maybe some sort of internal damage. Like it might have an after effect to continuously deal damage until they roll a successful fort save or something.

Maybe add some way to cut off spells or other magic abilities from other people.

[Greyfeld]

Any way you can copy and paste cause it is annoying cause we (myself included) are really lazy.

The thing is, I could only really paste over the text stuff. The table is a completely different HTML format, so I would have to retype the entire table (Which took me like an hour to type up the first time).

Anyway, I was actually considering an "ultimate defense" type of ability that allows for deflecting X number of projectile attacks, at an expenditure of Chi, after taking a defensive stance.

I also considered that "64 strikes" move, but like you said, it's something that's difficult to balance. Have to keep in mind, this isn't a straight rip from the Naruto series, it's more a mesh of Juken, the Monk class, and a little bit of spellcaster thrown in.

Also, the "Aura Recognition" was derived from the idea of the Byakugan, but those are some good ideas. Ultimately, whether or not I actually add anything else to the class depends entirely on what sort of feedback I get on the current build.

[Prime32]

I did something like this before. Feel free to take ideas from it.

[Greyfeld]

I did something like this before. Feel free to take ideas from it.

You made it for 4e, while mine is for 3.5e, but I saw some good ideas on that page. Psionics are something I didn't originally consider, but I'm also not versed in how Psionics work in the first place, so I might check into it at a later time.

That all being said, some actual constructive criticism would be appreciated.

[Prime32]

You made it for 4e

...no. No I didn't.

If I made it for 4e it would be 30 levels long, would have a list of powers, wouldn't make references to saving throws... I could go on.

[Hamswordsman]

I think the Jyuken is significantly stronger than a monk. Looking at it, it does the same 1d6 and then also adds wisdom. Then it also has the chance to stat decrease. Then again monks are a fairly weak class so a stronger monk isn't broken and the move does expend chi.
Can you tell me roughly what tier you are aiming for? It would help me judge the balancing and see what needs to be changed.

[Greyfeld]

I think the Jyuken is rather significantly stronger than a monk. Looking at it, it does the same 1d6 and then also adds wisdom. Then it also has the chance to stat decrease. Then again monks are a fairly weak class so a stronger monk isn't broken and the move does expend chi.
Can you tell me roughly what tier you are aiming for? It would help me judge the balancing and see what needs to be changed.

wasn't actually aiming for a tier, to be completely honest. Though it would be nice to not be shoved into T1, and end up having it banned due to it.

I suppose T2-3 would be preferable.

[Prime32]

wasn't actually aiming for a tier, to be completely honest. Though it would be nice to not be shoved into T1, and end up having it banned due to it.

I suppose T2-3 would be preferable.

Well, at first glance this is about Tier 4. Some of the abilities could be potent (I'll take another look at them later), but it doesn't have the options of a higher tier.


There's some oddities here. You can't gain multiple HD per level, and it's Improved Unarmed Strike not Improved Unarmed Combat. I'm not sure how Chi Direction is supposed to work, but it can inflict paralysis for multiple rounds with no save.

The main issue with the bonus feats is that as written you don't need to meet the prerequisites, so you could pick up things like Epic Spellcasting and Gape of the Serpent.

[Hamswordsman]

Then Jyuken should be just fine. I also concur that he is about tier four because he is fairly powerful but misses a lot of the spell casting that the higher tiers have. He also doesn't seem to have multiple ways to answer problems. If he just had some more ways to deal with stuff other than just raw damage then I think he can easily move up a tier. You can see the reasoning here. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

[Greyfeld]

I thought that skills, for the most part, took care of the "non-combat" stuff?

[Greyfeld]

Well, at first glance this is about Tier 4. Some of the abilities could be potent (I'll take another look at them later), but it doesn't have the options of a higher tier.


There's some oddities here. You can't gain multiple HD per level, and it's Improved Unarmed Strike not Improved Unarmed Combat. I'm not sure how Chi Direction is supposed to work, but it can inflict paralysis for multiple rounds with no save.

The main issue with the bonus feats is that as written you don't need to meet the prerequisites, so you could pick up things like Epic Spellcasting and Gape of the Serpent.

Hmm I was going to ask what the problem was with the HD, but I just figured it out... been such a long time since I've run a game, it slipped my mind.

As far as Chi Redirection goes, the idea behind it is to allow the player to cut his damage for that round in half, and redirect it into other effects, such as stat reduction and paralyzation. It's not worded very well, but the player has to decide to use it before he attacks. I decided that this ability should be automatic instead of allowing for a fort/will save, because the player already has to make the attack roll, and I've always felt like having two rolls to get a status effect to land is a huge middle finger in the player's face.

Also, I know that some of the wording isn't the best... I was getting tired while writing it, and there were a lot of things I just didn't think of while writing it out... you know, all the loophole stuff, like with the bonus feats.

[Hamswordsman]

I thought that skills, for the most part, took care of the "non-combat" stuff?

But in combat variation is important too. Your Chi redirection helps doing some paralysis and con damage but it is so limited in uses. 1/day or 2/day? Not really something you can do every encounter.

On that note the paralysis seems rather op for it cause after you hit, then the next guy just coup de grace's for an instant kill. Congratulations you just killed a crazy level boss just for getting one hit to land? Assassin's have the ridiculously hard to pull off Death attack that does paralysis and yours seems too easy to pull off in comparison.

Also wondering what role you plan to fill in the party. Right now it seems like its a melee striker but could be wrong. It might be worthwhile to add a bit more support options to round him off a bit.

[Greyfeld]

But in combat variation is important too. Your Chi redirection helps doing some paralysis and con damage but it is so limited in uses. 1/day or 2/day? Not really something you can do every encounter.

On that note the paralysis seems rather op for it cause after you hit, then the next guy just coup de grace's for an instant kill. Congratulations you just killed a crazy level boss just for getting one hit to land? Assassin's have the ridiculously hard to pull off Death attack that does paralysis and yours seems too easy to pull off in comparison.

Also wondering what role you plan to fill in the party. Right now it seems like its a melee striker but could be wrong. It might be worthwhile to add a bit more support options to round him off a bit.

Point taken on the paralysis. If I make Chi Redirection a repeatable ability, I can give the paralysis a Fort Save. Something like 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wis modifier. At level 14, that should be something like a DC 22. Does that sound too high at level 14?

And yes, it's supposed to be a melee striker. Though admittedly, it was just brought to my attention not too long ago that he needs to have some combat utility in the case that he runs out of Chi. Though I'm not entirely sure how to pull that off, aside from adding a couple weapons to the proficiency list.

I've also had some complaints about the triple dip of Wisdom into AC. I like it, personally, and it makes sense to me. But I'm wondering if maybe I should change it from AC to damage reduction instead.

[Hamswordsman]

You should split up the internal damage and paralysis into two steps for your chi redirection. Like you gain internal bleeding at level 11 but the paralysis still stays at level 14.

About paralysis, you might want to think about a different condition cause I would think it is rather difficult to balance.

What does he do about ranged people? (chi detonation is a level 20 skill and won't be used for the majority of the venture so you might want to think f something earlier. My suggestions for fixing this are rotation or air palm.

As for the extended use of Wis, i think its fine cause you still need the Dex to hit.

Instead of going into a weaponry, you might want to change jyuken so that you don't automatically get weapon finesse and then change to having a progression similar to a monk for unarmed strike. That way if your chi runs out, you can still hit people without a weapon which makes more sense.

[Greyfeld]

You should split up the internal damage and paralysis into two steps for your chi redirection. Like you gain internal bleeding at level 11 but the paralysis still stays at level 14.

About paralysis, you might want to think about a different condition cause I would think it is rather difficult to balance.

What does he do about ranged people? (chi detonation is a level 20 skill and won't be used for the majority of the venture so you might want to think f something earlier. My suggestions for fixing this are rotation or air palm.

As for the extended use of Wis, i think its fine cause you still need the Dex to hit.

Instead of going into a weaponry, you might want to change jyuken so that you don't automatically get weapon finesse and then change to having a progression similar to a monk for unarmed strike. That way if your chi runs out, you can still hit people without a weapon which makes more sense.

I'm actually thinking of revamping how the class operates. The Jyuken idea, initially, was just a springboard to create a hybrid mage/monk type of combo. I wanted to take spell damage and inject it into unarmed combat, creating a touch-attack type of class.

However, I've grasped so tightly onto the Jyuken itself that I've lost sight of what I actually wanted to do with the class, so I'm dropping that specific ability, making the Chi system more akin to the Power Points available through Psionics, and giving the class a straight unarmed combat feel, like the Monk class. However, the energy channeling is going to remain, I'm just going to change how it works. I'll update the thread when I've made the changes I'm thinking about.

Also, I'd like to mention I posted this somewhere else as well, and in that thread I've gotten a lot of flack over Mark of Wisdom. People are telling me it's too powerful, because of the ability to throw on Mithril Armor, get X number of +wis items, etc etc, and get an AC of 60+ at level 20. So I'm kind of confused about how to fix that.