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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    You can also persist half a hundred spells daily and your casting is entirely Wis SAD ('cause you do it based off your Depravity).
    Hmm, any way to become undead and still qualify for Beholder Mage? While Tainted Scholar is powerful, managing taint gets old after a while.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tedesche View Post
    Actually, another thing I should have mentioned is that I was also interested in people's feat and spell choices.
    For the Wizard/Bard, I liked Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Invisible Spell, and Disguise Spell which I mentioned. Yes, I very much enjoyed being able to spontaneously hide my Wizard spells without increasing the prepared spell level. It worked great in social situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Hmm, any way to become undead and still qualify for Beholder Mage? While Tainted Scholar is powerful, managing taint gets old after a while.
    Aren't there undead beholders? You probably can't become a beholder necropolitan, but if your DM allows you to become a beholder without adding RHD/LA, then becoming an undead beholder shouldn't slow you down any.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Hmm, any way to become undead and still qualify for Beholder Mage? While Tainted Scholar is powerful, managing taint gets old after a while.
    Depends on the exact definition of a "Beholder" we use. Ultimately though, I suppose you could Lichify yourself. That has some annoying side-effects but you don't qualify for Necropolitan and as you switch your type with the Polymorph, becoming Necro before PAOing would be slightly useless.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Incantatrix 5 is fairly easy to build and loaded with metamagic
    Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Spellthief 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Ultimate Magus 10 / X 3 (either more Unseen Seer or some other casting PrC) lets you be sneaky and versatile with an interesting CL.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Trick for multi-progression PrCs : Build off of fast-progression classes, like Naar Demonbinder , Sublime Chord , Ur-Priest , and if you're really cheesy, Beholder Mage.
    Take a single level of Spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat. Synergize with the Sublime Chord caster level rules and you're golden.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Note that Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and thus qualify for Able Learner, making the Beguiler 1/ Wizard/ UM build that much more attractive. Also note that Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend spontaneous spell slots to cast any spell you know of a given level, so you can use that to spend Beguiler spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you've read and made the Spellcraft check to understand, even if it's not in your spellbook. This allows you to go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM, though you'd need two flaws and have to skip Able Learner.

    If going Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10, you could finish out with one more Wizard level for one of the nice Wizard 5 ACFs, and get Incantatrix 4 to finish out to 20. If you go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM 10, you could finish with four more Master Specialist levels for the Moderate Esoterica and have one level left over for something like Mindbender 1 for Mindsight or Spellthief 1 for stacking caster levels. You could even skip both Illumian and Practiced Spellcaster and go Human Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 2/ UM 10/ Master Specialist 5, which with Master Spellthief would stack all your effective levels for a higher, equal caster level in all classes, and you'd still be able to get Able Learner.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    The best entry is dependent on things.

    Need a pile of skillpoints at level 1, a party face, and ... a Beguiler?

    Beguiler 1 / Conjurer / Master Specialist (gives feat needed for one of the PrCs) / UM 10 / Archmage X.

    You would give up Enchantment / Illusion for the specialization.
    I'm AFB right now so I can't be more specific. But the MS1 gives you the required feat.

    It's kinda suboptimal because your Beguiler level will be low. You'll end up doing out of combat utility with it, and powering Metamagic with it.


    The best entry is going to be Conjurer / MS / Nar Demonbinder / UM 10 / AM 3.
    My personal workaround would be something like Necrotic Cyst feat at level 1 to get your 1st level spontaneous spell, and a bunch of spells known. There are a ton of other feats to give you a spontaneous spell already mentioned, but I like the Cyst.

    You get incredibly powerful Divine spells, with more utility than a cleric gets casting their own spells (Demonbinder allows alteration of the spells to your whim), and at spell levels which would power whatever Metamagic you need - handy at higher levels / epic.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    here is a question for the GITP:

    If you went with the beguiler/conjurer build with UM would your "effective caster level" be +2 at 1,4,7 level of UM. Like you would be gaining 2 levels in the casting class for the specific case of CL. I don't think you get the spells known/per day stuff but your CL increases right?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    I favor the beguiler start for the single casting stat and the fact that it makes it easier to give up 3 schools for focused specialist. I don't understand why everyone goes gaga over able learner. It's a decent feat in that you are not burning through skill points but you still only get 1/2 progression on skills.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by elonin View Post
    I favor the beguiler start for the single casting stat and the fact that it makes it easier to give up 3 schools for focused specialist. I don't understand why everyone goes gaga over able learner. It's a decent feat in that you are not burning through skill points but you still only get 1/2 progression on skills.
    but that is the entire point. gold pieces can be replaced. Feats and skill points can't. there is a set number of them so we have to use them wisely. Therefore anything that can save you skill points or feats is great. Bonus feats are loved for this very reason as well.

    You are correct that you still only get 1/2 progression (assuming it isn't a class skill for any class you have) BUT you save that extra skill point to put into something else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    DM: "And now you descend into the mazelike tunnels, where no light save for what magic you bring will illuminate your path, as you search for-"
    Player: "I'm preparing Teleport twice each day."
    DM: "...and there goes the tension by the window"

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    I do agree about skill points, but some people out there have an impression that able learner gives full skill point progression.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    while true but when you gain a level in a class you can then increase its rank to full. That could mimic "full progression". say at 1st level I am a human with rogue as my class and I have the able learner feat and I choose to put points into knowledge (arcana) and 1 skill point into it. Then my next level I choose to go into wizard. I can then put 4 points into knowledge arcana to continue my progression and make it to full ranks for "class skill" even though I originally had it as a cross class skill.

    so while you are correct there are ways to make it full progression
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    DM: "And now you descend into the mazelike tunnels, where no light save for what magic you bring will illuminate your path, as you search for-"
    Player: "I'm preparing Teleport twice each day."
    DM: "...and there goes the tension by the window"

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    From the SRD:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD

    Skills

    If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characterís classes, then character level determines a skillís maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

    If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass characterís classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.
    I hope this brings some light to that matter.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    But Knowledge Arcana isn't a class skill for rogue so you would still be paying 2 points for 1 rank @ level 1...which kinda beat the purpose of able learner :p

    Better wait 3rd level to max it out at small cost (all 1:1).

    But I tend to agree that it tend to give full progression. No point of taking Able Learner if you don't multiclass, usually starting with high skill points, high number of class skill Class.

    Basically you end up with so many skills as class skills that it's pretty much full progression for at least 3/4 of them.

    As for the Magus, I doubt a sane DM will allow Kobold and Beholder mage cheese

    I'd go with a Human Beguiler 1/Wizard 3/UM 1/Mindbender 1/UM 9/Fatespinner 4/Whatever with arcane spellcast 1

    Simple effective and not bleeding cheddar.

    Beguiler gives you UMD and lots of skill points, both SAD on INT, netting lots of extra spells both sides and a reasonable amount of skill points to spend even on the 2+ points classes. It has a lot of charm spell, making Enchantment a kick ass school to drop as wizard.

    Just for that I believe beguiler>other spontaneous in a UM build.

    But that's just me
    Last edited by DanReiv; 2010-06-30 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanReiv View Post
    But Knowledge Arcana isn't a class skill for rogue so you would still be paying 2 points for 1 rank @ level 1...which kinda beat the purpose of able learner :p
    I don't know if there is errata on Able Learner, but if memory does't fail me, if you take it at first level, you will always pay 1 point per skill rank, be it class or cross class. The only difference then becomes the maximum rank.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    I love a necromancer on the wizard side of a wizard 3 / dread necromancer 1 / spellthief 1 / UM 10 / Archmage 5 / +X

    You can now finaly pay for that painful cost of Fell Animate. Free undead on the fly! Felldrain magic misile on the go. Fell weaken ray of enfeblement.

    Best thing is the fact that your caster level is even for all casting classes, so you can apply those increases hovever you wish.

    You end up with Wizard 18, sorrcerer 8, and spellthief 1.
    This is a caster level of 27 in three classes. Thats 27 X 4 X 3 hd of undead you can control. Thats a silly 324 HD of undead!

    Use archmage to make the most powerful undead creation spell a spelllike to avoid the cost.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Another one:

    Race: Dragonwrought Kobold (Loredrake)

    Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Mystic Theurge 6

    Use Favored -> Primary Contact to qualify for UM's skill prereqs.
    Use Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to add +3 free Sorcerer levels (White Dragonspawn with LA Buyoff can be added for another +1).
    Advance Wizard for UM 1 and UM 4, and advance Sorcerer for UM 7.
    Use Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge, advancing Wizard as arcane class and Sorcerer as divine class.

    End result:

    18th Wizard
    18th Sorcerer
    That doesn't work; you don't meet the requirements for the Alternative Source feat. And even if you would, it would merely allow you to prepare your arcane Sorcerer spells as divine spells; it would not make Sorcerer a "divine spellcasting class" that you can progress with Mystic Theurge.

    I'm not going to touch the viability of the Kobold/Loredrake cheese as is hotly debated elsewhere.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    OT: I'm very fond of Beguiler1/Wizard1/HumanParagon3/UM10/X++ myself.

    Massive skill points, everything is INT-based, you get an extra feat, a +2 INT and better saves compared to the (already very good) B1/W4/UM++ are too good to pass up.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Um, IIRC, Able Learner can ONLY be taken at 1st level...

    The whole point of it is that most Beguiler skills aren't on the Wizard list, like UMD or Disable Device. Once you take the single Beguiler level, your max with those skills is FOREVER character level +3. Able Learner then allows you to use your Wizard skill points to buy ranks 1:1 at each level to keep them topped off. You won't get quite as many skill points to keep all of you Beguiler skills maxed, but you can keep the important ones like UMD capped out.

    Without Able Learner, you'd have to burn 2 points per rank to keep UMD maxed out for your Wizard levels until you get into UM, which, for some reason, has UMD as a class skill as well.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Il_Vec View Post
    I don't know if there is errata on Able Learner, but if memory does't fail me, if you take it at first level, you will always pay 1 point per skill rank, be it class or cross class. The only difference then becomes the maximum rank.
    You have to take it at first level, and all it does is make the cost 1 point per skill regardless of class or cross-class.

    Depending on whether or not you think the benefits of leveling up listed in the Player's Handbook have to be taken in order, however, you may get Able Learner too late for it to apply to the skill points you spend at level 1.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    You have to take it at first level, and all it does is make the cost 1 point per skill regardless of class or cross-class.

    Depending on whether or not you think the benefits of leveling up listed in the Player's Handbook have to be taken in order, however, you may get Able Learner too late for it to apply to the skill points you spend at level 1.
    Are you saying that if I take that feat that gives 5 skill points, I can't spend them until the next level up?
    Last edited by Il_Vec; 2010-06-30 at 01:16 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    You have to take it at first level, and all it does is make the cost 1 point per skill regardless of class or cross-class.

    Depending on whether or not you think the benefits of leveling up listed in the Player's Handbook have to be taken in order, however, you may get Able Learner too late for it to apply to the skill points you spend at level 1.
    I haven't heard of any ruling that keeps the Able Learner from applying to 1st level skills. The real implication of that rule is to prevent early entry to prestige classes (by taking feat before selecting class). Then again I thought that only the current class skills were considered for level+3 ranks. Then again many games don't go by strictly RAW.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Il_Vec View Post
    Are you saying that if I take that feat that gives 5 skill points, I can't spend them until the next level up?
    I'm saying the Player's Handbook lists the benefits on leveling up, on page 58. There are two ways to read it: as a list or as a procedure. Personally, I lead towards the former and favor the interpretation that you can order the acquisition of level-based benefits as you like, but I'm not sure that's actually the case.

    If that's true, then the line "you spend them as normal" might mean you don't actually get the benefit until your next level, or it might mean that you spend them as part of the feat, with the "normal" line just referring to the cost of class and cross-class skills.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    See so my point was made. Able learner is great for theurge builds where skill points are needed to cover skills.

    @ OT: Personally I like the beguiler feel of this type of class but I can't seem to find some classes that would help me support them even more since I can't elaborate why.

    The classes I am failing to find are the following:
    Nar Demonbinder
    Beholder Mage

    When you go to pick a race and you want some small sprinkle of cheddar instead of outright cheese in a can think of the dragonwrought kobold thing. I dont know if +3 to all mental stats out weighs Able learner with a bonus feat and bonus skill points but something to consider as well.
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    DM: "And now you descend into the mazelike tunnels, where no light save for what magic you bring will illuminate your path, as you search for-"
    Player: "I'm preparing Teleport twice each day."
    DM: "...and there goes the tension by the window"

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Actually,I think that the magister class (from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved) might qualify as a spontaneous spellcasting class,due to the way that the magic system works. If that is so,then the ultimate cheese UM build would be a magister/wizard combo.(Magister being the first (and largest class) so you can pick up the bonus ceremonial feat at 1st level,and can pick up ceremonial feats as you level up.Also,magisters get the following class feature at 6th level: +2 to all saving throws vs. magic and +2 competence bonus to AC against all spells requiring attack rolls.)

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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tytalus View Post
    That doesn't work; you don't meet the requirements for the Alternative Source feat. And even if you would, it would merely allow you to prepare your arcane Sorcerer spells as divine spells; it would not make Sorcerer a "divine spellcasting class" that you can progress with Mystic Theurge.
    Bah, forgot about that prereq. You'll need a cleric dip, which works out to Wizard 17/Sorcerer 18. Still 9th/9th.

    And any class that casts divine spells is a divine spellcasting class. It's not defined any other way.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Any class or feat that allows prepared casting using Charisma as the casting stat? I like the flavor of sorcerer, but would prefer to be less mad than Wizard (although, going the opposite route - turning Cha into Int casting stat would work as well).

    Just doesn't seem fair that Beguiler using Int but there isn't an obvious correlation in the other direction.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    Able Learner: If you get a skill as a class skill for even one level, i.e. Beguiler 1, it's always considered a class skill for your character for purposes of what your max ranks are. So at level 5 your max ranks for every Beguiler skill is 8, but without Able Learner you'd have to spend 12 ranks for every skill at 8 ranks that aren't also Wizard class skills. Able Learner enables you to keep max ranks in all those nice Beguiler skills like Spot, Listen, Hide, Sense Motive, UMD, Bluff, Search, Disable Device, etc. without any additional cost.

    UM's Arcane Spell Power +X: This is a bonus to caster level for effects like duration, range, how many d6's a Fireball does, etc., not spellcasting ability. You can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. An Illumian Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 4 with Krau and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler has spellcasting ability at Beguiler 3 and Wizard 8. His caster level for Beguiler is (3 base) + (4 practiced spellcaster) + (2 Krau) + (2 Arcane Spell Power) = 11, at character level 9. His Wizard caster level is (8 base) + (1 Krau, no higher than his character level) + (2 Arcane Spell Power) = 11, at character level 9.

    Nar Demonbinder: If you can't find a prestige class, check the WotC Lists Archive, it's found in Unapproachable East. Note that Nar Demonbinder grants 4th-8th level spontaneous spells, so you wouldn't qualify for UM without the Spontaneous Divination ACF or similar shenaniganary. It adds your level in other spellcasting classes to itself to determine your caster level, so you wouldn't even need Practiced Spellcaster to put 10/10 UM into Wizard. Its greatest drawback is probably that without 3rd-level and lower spell slots, and only 4/4/3/2/1 spells/day at the final level, you can't power much metamagic with it. IMO Beguiler is a much better choice for a UM build.

    For a build using an accelerated progression prestige class, I'd probably go something like Bard 1/ Wizard+PrCs 8/ UM 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ UM 9. Take Versatile Spellcaster to use 0-level Bard slots to cast 1st level Wizard spells you know to qualify you for it, and you can later use Sublime Chord spell slots to spontaneously cast your higher level Wizard spells known. You'll lose 3 levels of Wizard spellcasting, since UM 1 will be applied to Bard, but you could include a level of Spellthief and take Master Spellthief to equalize your caster levels and even do some stacking shenanigans once you get Sublime Chord for an arbitrarily high caster level.

    Edit: Sorcerer is no different from Beguiler, just take Versatile Spellcaster and you can use Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you've learned. It turns Beguiler into a Sorcerer with more spells known, more skill points and class skills, class features, SAD, etc. There's just no reason to use Sorcerer unless you want to get Draconic Heritage or use Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2010-06-30 at 04:42 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sin City
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Best Ultimate Magus build?

    So I think the playground verdict of "best usable build" is the following

    human/illumian

    Beguiler 1/Wizard 3 (4)/UM 10/(Spelltheif 1)/ X++

    Feats are the following
    1: Able Learner
    the rest are up to you.

    Happy Hunting with UM
    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    DM: "And now you descend into the mazelike tunnels, where no light save for what magic you bring will illuminate your path, as you search for-"
    Player: "I'm preparing Teleport twice each day."
    DM: "...and there goes the tension by the window"

    Spoiler
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    I Am A: Lawful Good Human Ranger (3rd Level)
    Ability Scores
    Strength: 15
    Dexterity: 18
    Constitution: 16
    Intelligence: 16
    Wisdom: 16
    Charisma: 14

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