Tactic RPGs for DS

[true_shinken]

So, can the playground suggest a few good tactical RPGs for the DS?
I just played Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume and loved it.

[Cristo Meyers]

Off the top of my head there's Final Fantasy Tactics. Beyond that the only other one I can think of is the Luminous Arc series. LA isn't the best game, but it's decent enough and enjoyable.

[Drascin]

There's also Disgaea if you never had a PS2 to play the original.

Additionally, as only partly tactical you have Devil Survivor (move in tactical map, engage individual enemies in classic RPG-style battle)... or even, stretching things a bit, Knights in the nightmare, though I'd honestly recommend you try this one before buying. KitN is good, but weird, and rather more adrenaline-fueled than your average RPG.

[Terraoblivion]

I guess i'll be the first to say this. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor. It's kind of a departure from typical strategy RPGs, though.

[Zevox]

Disgaea DS. For pure Tactical RPG games on the DS, there is none better, especially if you're among those who like grinding, since the game can facilitate that literally infinitely. (It's also not required though, if you don't like that.)

For a sort of mix of tactical RPG and more traditional RPG combat, Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor is a fantastic game, one of my two favorites on the DS (alongside The World Ends With You).

There's also Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon, though you should really only get that if you're a fan of the series, as it's not one of the better games of the series. If you haven't tried the series, the GBA game which, outside of Japan, is simply entitled "Fire Emblem" is one of the better games of the series, at least of those released outside Japan, and a good place to start with the series, and can be played on the DS assuming you're using something made before the DSi.

There's also Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2, but I personally haven't bothered with that one, due to being underwhelmed by the first.

If you're willing to forgo the "RPG" portion, the Advance Wars games (Dual Strike and Days of Ruin on the DS) are good, and have similar gameplay to tactical RPGs.

Zevox

[Ogremindes]

Heh, I loves me some Tactical RPG.
On my DS game shelf there's:

• Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2
• Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor
• Disgaea DS

If your DS isn't a DSi, there's:

• Final Fantasy Tactics Advance
• Tactics Ogre: Knight of Lodis
• Shining Force: Resurrection of the Dark Dragon
• Lord of the Rings: The Third Age (not so much RPG in this one, but the heroes do level up)
• Fire Emblem

for GBA.

[Hunter Noventa]

If you don't have a DSi there's also Super Robot Wars Original Generation 1 and 2, sometimes available for $10 at your local gamestop.

There's also the Front Mission remake. Giant robots shooting the crap out of each other.

[Inhuman Bot]

I would seriously think about Disgae before buying it, as it's very YMMV. I personally don't like it due to it's repetitive, grind focused gameplay, jokes that aren't particularly good, and the ease which it can become unwinnable, but other people love it.

[chiasaur11]

Another GBA one is Rebelstar: Tactical Command.

By the creators of X-Com, it's supposedly pretty good.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm...how odd that no one has recommended Rondo of Swords for the DS? It's a bit different from most tactical RPGs in that you get a Fire Emblem-ish fighting system, yet with some caveats such as attacking multiple opponents on a charge or something like that. Also, the story is pretty unique at the beginning.

Another would be Hoshigami Remix; a remake from the Hoshigami: Ruining Blue Earth game for the PSX. I've only played a wee bit (more focused on The Dark Spire and Etrian Odyssey which aren't tactical RPGs), and it can entertain you if you know the system well.

[hustlertwo]

Honestly, if you're a big fan of the tactical/strategic type of games, I'd say get a PSP. It's definitely the best handheld ever in that genre, and is fast becoming the best non-PC platform for SRPGs and such in history, portable or not. But yeah, if you don't have that option, Front Mission is probably your best choice. Never played the first one, but the pedigree of the series is fairly impressive. As someone else mentioned, Disgaea is not as excellent as some have claimed. It does a lot of things right, and is generally fun to play, but making it necessary to create a new level 1 character when you wish to change classes instead of simply changing the class of a pre-existing character is a stupendously terrible decision that crushes the aura of fun the rest of the game tries so hard to create. But if you like grinding, it has all you could desire and more.

And please, don't play the Tactics Advance games, especially if you played the original. Just awful.

[Ogremindes]

Honestly, if you're a big fan of the tactical/strategic type of games, I'd say get a PSP. It's definitely the best handheld ever in that genre...
And please, don't play the Tactics Advance games, especially if you played the original. Just awful.

OK, what's so great about the PSP for tactical RPGs? And I loved FFTA. Even the law system. FFTA2 isn't as good, in my opinion, but it's still solid.

[Raroy]

Here is my cynical take on things.

I'm going to say that I personally found Fire Emblem Shadow dragon, Final Fantasy Tactics advance, and the super robot war games to be dreadfully mediocre.

Shadow dragon feels far too bland and is too true to old classic video games design without improving it enough. Blazing Sword (The first one released internationally) is fantastic.

Tactics advance two is a very unnotable game. You don't really hear much of it due to how unimpressive the game really is.

I don't care for Mecha Anime so Super robot wars was very miss for me. By itself it can't stand up as a game due to it so religiously following anime cliches. I really tried to get into this game, but I can't. Bleah.

I can't even play the first disgea game anymore myself. Or the second one. I honestly thought the third one had some really great writing, but I'm pretty much the only one who believes that.


Mr HustlerTwo, you mind giving examples of those tactical psp games? I think I'm becoming one of those kind of gamers......

[T.G. Oskar]

Aside from FFT: War of the Lions, I've hardly found the PSP ripe for tactical RPG. The DS has a much more robust area in that; the PSP is basically for buying old PSX RPGs and play them on the way (and I don't mean FFVII-IX, I'm talking about Wild Arms and Grandia). The only other tactical RPG I've played on the PSP is Dungeons & Dragons Tactics (which doesn't have the best story, mind you; the system is also pretty easy to break as well) and...Super Robot Wars A Portable.

Granted: SRW isn't for everyone. The charm of the game is on the big explosions, the awesome songs and attacks, and the homage to loads and loads of mecha series, but if you aren't a mecha fan, you won't like it. It's pretty tough to customize your characters and units, given the miserable amount of credits you get, but it actually has a rather robust stat system that it's lovely to analyze (knowing the right application of the stats allows you to deal insane damage or reduce damage to nil, for example). The big trouble is the story; either you don't understand it and mostly ignore it, or you look on a translation guide/patch/localized game (the latter of which there are only two) and enjoy the bizarre characters (methinks the reason Raroy doesn't like SRW much amongst other things is characterization, as SRW tends to have exaggerated characters; I on the other hand love the characterization), or can't get into the story. SRW OG and OG2/OGs + OG Gaiden rely a lot on what the player knows outside of the series, but it makes a reasonable effort to mingle wildly divergent stories (you're dealing with around 27 or so different characters fully fleshed to be main characters, and the vast majority of them must be downplayed into support).

Still, I find the DS to be the superior RPG console. Since most of the current games are remakes and perpetuations of various series, one can get disconnected to the large amount of DS RPG games there are.

I think there's also Revenant Wings and one of the Mana series games as tactical RPGs, but their worth is questionable. FF: RW is a tad more worthwhile than the Mana tactical RPG, IMO (even if the latter game has reference to the entire Mana series of games)

[Cheesegear]

for GBA.

There's also Onimusha Tactics. However, in typical 'J'RPG fashion, you get set heroes and don't get to change them and they all level up according to whatever they've been coded with.

[hustlertwo]

Aside from FFT: War of the Lions, I've hardly found the PSP ripe for tactical RPG. The DS has a much more robust area in that; the PSP is basically for buying old PSX RPGs and play them on the way (and I don't mean FFVII-IX, I'm talking about Wild Arms and Grandia). The only other tactical RPG I've played on the PSP is Dungeons & Dragons Tactics (which doesn't have the best story, mind you; the system is also pretty easy to break as well) and...Super Robot Wars A Portable.

Granted: SRW isn't for everyone. The charm of the game is on the big explosions, the awesome songs and attacks, and the homage to loads and loads of mecha series, but if you aren't a mecha fan, you won't like it. It's pretty tough to customize your characters and units, given the miserable amount of credits you get, but it actually has a rather robust stat system that it's lovely to analyze (knowing the right application of the stats allows you to deal insane damage or reduce damage to nil, for example). The big trouble is the story; either you don't understand it and mostly ignore it, or you look on a translation guide/patch/localized game (the latter of which there are only two) and enjoy the bizarre characters (methinks the reason Raroy doesn't like SRW much amongst other things is characterization, as SRW tends to have exaggerated characters; I on the other hand love the characterization), or can't get into the story. SRW OG and OG2/OGs + OG Gaiden rely a lot on what the player knows outside of the series, but it makes a reasonable effort to mingle wildly divergent stories (you're dealing with around 27 or so different characters fully fleshed to be main characters, and the vast majority of them must be downplayed into support).

Still, I find the DS to be the superior RPG console. Since most of the current games are remakes and perpetuations of various series, one can get disconnected to the large amount of DS RPG games there are.

I think there's also Revenant Wings and one of the Mana series games as tactical RPGs, but their worth is questionable. FF: RW is a tad more worthwhile than the Mana tactical RPG, IMO (even if the latter game has reference to the entire Mana series of games)

As far as standard RPGs go, the DS is superior (especially if you don't include action RPGs, since that cuts out fare like Crisis Core). PSP's SRPG domination, however, is hard to question. The best version of the best entry in the genre, FFT: War of the Lions, that's worth a lot of points all on its own. Jeanne d'Arc, another home run from Level 5. Lord of the Rings Tactics, Dungeons and Dragons Tactics (especially pertinent on this forum, and I do agree about the story, but that's hardly a complaint exclusive to D&D:T), both Disgaea games (DS gamers being stuck with just the one), R-Type Command (no release for the sequel over here, a shame if only because of its incredibly goofy subtitle, Operation Bitter Chocolate), Wild Arms XF, and presumably other ones; those are just the ones I remember from browsing the stands at Gamestop (or which I own myself, in the case of FFT, D&D, Jeanne, and the first Disgaea). And although it's not quite as good as FFT, Tactics Ogre's upcoming remake is another major get for the genre on what has basically become its home platform, now that the consoles have largely abandoned the genre. On that note, apparently the PSP is getting a sequel to that Valkyria Chronicles game that hit the PS3 a while back in a few weeks. One more on the pile.

[Zevox]

PSP's SRPG domination, however, is hard to question. The best version of the best entry in the genre, FFT: War of the Lions, that's worth a lot of points all on its own.

*chuckles* FFT, "the best entry in the genre?" Now, I'll grant that I haven't played the PSP version, but I have played the original PS1 version, and I certainly wouldn't call that anywhere near the best in the genre. Better than its "Advanced" sequels, certainly, but that's not a high bar to meet.

both Disgaea games (DS gamers being stuck with just the one)

No great loss. Disgaea 2 improved the series' gameplay in a few ways, but the story and characters took a nosedive.

Zevox

[T.G. Oskar]

*chuckles* FFT, "the best entry in the genre?" Now, I'll grant that I haven't played the PSP version, but I have played the original PS1 version, and I certainly wouldn't call that anywhere near the best in the genre. Better than its "Advanced" sequels, certainly, but that's not a high bar to meet.

Actually, it raises the bar pretty high. The horrible translation of the PSX version has been redone from the very beginning, and while it adopts a Victorian-period accent and vocabulary, it is a welcome addition. The maps are wider given the screen of the PSP, the classes are a bit harder to qualify to, and the difficulty has increased a bit up until Chapter 4 (when you get access to Midlight's Deep/Deep Dungeon and the Thunder God). There are more quests, more characters, wider character roster (which means you can keep the generics and get ALL of the special characters, so you can mix and match and immerse in the character creation system), and the CGI and expanded story is just great. War of the Lions REALLY gives justice to the old game, and you can pretty much ignore the two new classes, although I will admit that Dark Knight is especially useful and quite probably the new choice for Ramza besides Monk (or in my case, Dual Wield/Two Weapon Squire with Iaido/Draw Out). Heck, I find Archers, of all classes, to be useful.

Though, I wish to see which games you find superior to FFT. I can grant you Tactics Ogre, since besides being done by Matsuno it has a wonderful story (and yes, I am EXCITED!!! for the remake of Let Us Cling Together), but aside from that FF Tactics is a wonderful game, one that can rather easily set the bar for other tactical games. But, that's just my opinion.

As for other TRPGs on the PSP: considering how difficult it is to think of tactical RPGs on the DS, it is similar to think of tactical RPGs on the PSP. D&D Tactics is a fun game, but the story is really meh and the character creation system is rather one-sided (plus, I know hustlertwo will agree, Evard's Black Tentacles breaks the game except for the surprising second-to-last battle). Disgaea is both on the DS and the PSP so it's kind of a moot point, since it's mostly a difference in versions (the PSP has greater capacity, the DS version is smaller but it has touch-screen interaction IIRC). Lord of the Rings Tactics...well, I haven't even realized there was one (silly me). Wild Arms XF is, IMO, confusing as heck and I tend to shy out of any Wild Arms game after the 2nd or 3rd, since they varied a lot from the roots of the story (the class system in particular kinda frightens me; it's kinda alien in comprehension). R-Type has always been for me a shooter game, and if R-Type is there, then maybe Star Fox Command should be there for the DS as well (though it's not a TRPG and more of a SRPG with shooter elements). But if I were to think of a portable RPG console, I immediately think DS; fortunately, I have both the DS and the PSP so I have no complaints about which games to get so as long as I get the money for them.

Oh, and delving a bit on the D&D: Tactics story... It's brutally linear. I still have to see whether the few changes make a dent in the final act, but you can figure out which one is the good choice and which one is the bad choice. FF Tactics is linear but expected; D&D Tactics tries to be a bit non-linear but it shows its linearity. I'll do admit: between D&D Tactics and DDO, Atari and Turbine have done better in understanding the game than Wizards of the Coast ever did, and that's saying a LOT.

[chiasaur11]

DS has Jagged Alliance, don't it?

That might be worth a look.

[hustlertwo]

Yeah, the short version is that aside from sound issues (both effects not matching to visuals in some cases, and the music and SFX being generally poor compared to the PS1 version) and occasional slowdown, everything imaginable in FFT was improved for War of the Lions. Frankly, I still enjoyed the story even when it was translated horribly, but it's certainly even better now.

Oskar, I saw you mention TO as a game one might consider better that FFT, but for me it's tough to buy into it. Granted, FFT is my favorite game in any genre, much less SRPGs alone, so it's tough for me to buy there being a superior title to it at all, but especially TO. It does have a surprising amount of openness in the storyline for a SRPG, giving it a great deal of replay value. And while I still consider FFT's story to be better, both are well above the norm by game writing standards. However, TO falters by being much more simplistic and less customizable than its successor; where every class in FFT has a host of unique abilities and combat options, TO has the issue of a lot of other SRPGs, in that each class typically has only one or two distinctive features. Also, the vast disparity in combat capabilities between even minor differences in level necessitated a lot of training battles. That was an extremely cool feature, granted, but doing it every time someone leveled up until the party was the same as him or her was a major chore that artificially extended a playthrough's length by many hours. And while I realize it was optional, Hell's Gate was a brutal, terrible thing to subject people to playing. Not because it was tough (it wasn't) but because it. was. so. BORING! Took me years to beat the game because I was too far into that dungeon to leave, but could never play through it for extended periods of time without moving on to something else.

I...don't think I ever used that spell, if any of my people even had it available. But yes, it was a pretty easy game in general. I don't recall any problems with the penultimate boss fight, although the one optional fight where you kept going up against progressively stronger waves of enemies by touching pillars of light was the rare bit of difficulty in that game.

You don't mention Jeanne d'Arc; if you haven't played it, I definitely recommend it. Probably the best original SRPG I've seen in years. A bit on the easy side would be the only real complaint I had about it. Probably very cheap by now, too.

So I can understand why you think of the DS first when considering RPGs in general. But unless someone has a proper rebuttal on why the DS offerings in the SRPG genre beat the quantity and quality of what the PSP brings to the table in this area, I think we need to call in Raul Julia as M. Bison to say "Game....OVER!' on that notion.

[Mando Knight]

So I can understand why you think of the DS first when considering RPGs in general. But unless someone has a proper rebuttal on why the DS offerings in the SRPG genre beat the quantity and quality of what the PSP brings to the table in this area, I think we need to call in Raul Julia as M. Bison to say "Game....OVER!' on that notion.

Quantity is easy, especially with GBA titles brought to bear. Fire Emblem and Advance Wars each have multiple titles on the GBA, and a couple on the DS itself. Then Disgaea, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Luminous Arc, Super Robot Wars...

Nintendo systems are practically where console-style TBS games were born, so they're where you should go to find them. Not having played Jeanne d'Arc or FFT: War of the Lions, I can't pass judgment on the quality of PSP strategy games compared to the DS ones... though the DS is the world's most popular game platform, so it gets hoards of support...

[Zevox]

Actually, it raises the bar pretty high. The horrible translation of the PSX version has been redone from the very beginning, and while it adopts a Victorian-period accent and vocabulary, it is a welcome addition.

(Note: My comment about the "bar" was a reference to FFTA not being very difficult to beat, not to the PSP version of FFT; but moving on to more substantive conversation.)

Better translation would be quite welcome, I'll certainly give you that. One big problem with FFT was that I couldn't follow the story past, oh, maybe the first chapter, in large part due to the translation. Though not entirely due to the translation - the similar sprites and images used for a number of story characters made keeping track of them difficult as well. In any event, it's possible my opinion of the game would improve given that change.

The maps are wider given the screen of the PSP, the classes are a bit harder to qualify to, and the difficulty has increased a bit up until Chapter 4 (when you get access to Midlight's Deep/Deep Dungeon and the Thunder God). There are more quests, more characters, wider character roster (which means you can keep the generics and get ALL of the special characters, so you can mix and match and immerse in the character creation system), and the CGI and expanded story is just great. War of the Lions REALLY gives justice to the old game, and you can pretty much ignore the two new classes, although I will admit that Dark Knight is especially useful and quite probably the new choice for Ramza besides Monk (or in my case, Dual Wield/Two Weapon Squire with Iaido/Draw Out). Heck, I find Archers, of all classes, to be useful.

The rest, eh, okay, but doesn't sound like anything that'd raise my opinion of the game. The thing is, while it didn't suffer from many of the other problems that FFTA did, FFT's gameplay still, for me, ultimately drew most of its appeal from the character customization, just as FFTA did. As a result, my interest in it petered out rapidly when my team reached the point where they pretty much had learned all the skills from the two classes I wanted them to have their final skill sets from, which lead to me ultimately never finishing the game - I came close, was in chapter 4 when it happened, but I just wound up getting bored with it once my customization of my team was done. Can't say that's ever happened to me before in any TRPG - except FFTA, but in that case my team customization didn't finish until I was into the post-game portions.

Though, I wish to see which games you find superior to FFT.

Sticking strictly to the tactical RPG genre? Disgaea 1 and 2 (haven't played 3, but I'd bet on it too), most of the Fire Emblem series (except Shadow Dragon, and not counting games not released outside Japan since I haven't played them), Ogre Battle 64 (I think that qualifies - it's certainly not a straight-up RPG, but it is also different from other tactical RPGs), Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis, Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (if it counts - its combat is a hybrid of tactical RPG and traditional RPG, as I and others mentioned before).

Really, most other tactical RPGs I've played, when you get down to it. Final Fantasy Tactics isn't a bad game or anything, but it's not one I have much praise for myself.

Zevox

[T.G. Oskar]

Oskar, I saw you mention TO as a game one might consider better that FFT, but for me it's tough to buy into it. Granted, FFT is my favorite game in any genre, much less SRPGs alone, so it's tough for me to buy there being a superior title to it at all, but especially TO. It does have a surprising amount of openness in the storyline for a SRPG, giving it a great deal of replay value. And while I still consider FFT's story to be better, both are well above the norm by game writing standards. However, TO falters by being much more simplistic and less customizable than its successor; where every class in FFT has a host of unique abilities and combat options, TO has the issue of a lot of other SRPGs, in that each class typically has only one or two distinctive features. Also, the vast disparity in combat capabilities between even minor differences in level necessitated a lot of training battles. That was an extremely cool feature, granted, but doing it every time someone leveled up until the party was the same as him or her was a major chore that artificially extended a playthrough's length by many hours. And while I realize it was optional, Hell's Gate was a brutal, terrible thing to subject people to playing. Not because it was tough (it wasn't) but because it. was. so. BORING! Took me years to beat the game because I was too far into that dungeon to leave, but could never play through it for extended periods of time without moving on to something else.

Tactics Ogre requires a certain finesse to play that isn't present in Final Fantasy Tactics. FFT rewards the right mix of classes and appropriate buffing; TO on the other hand rewards knowing the system well to deal as maximum damage as possible. All classes had a single ability they were good with (and some didn't: case in point the Knight which was dwarfed early on by other classes, albeit TO: Knight of Lodis remedies that by allowing minor Holy magic use), but they brought a different method of thinking. In Tactics Ogre, magic is far more powerful than anything else, but it was slow to develop. Weapons are more crucial in the aspect, as well as positioning. Everything is more challenging in TO, and that is wonderful because every single class save for one or two have the opportunity to shine: Knights can shine if they have huge defense bonuses, Berzerkers are better with big axes and few armor, Ninjas and Swordmasters are better as two-weapon users and in the case of the latter as MP rechargers for mages, you have to have at least one magician for every element, Witches and Warlocks can make or break the game later on... If you think of it in the appropriate way, one character in FFT can do what 2 or 3 in TO do, but a group of 10 people in TO are more than a challenge to a group of 5~6 in FFT than the actual monsters in FFT (except the Hydra-kind and the Daemon-kind).

TO has (in both games) the training session and automatic training if you want it, but in the end that's less important since you really nerf yourself if you don't train during the first few levels. You can overlevel and breeze through the game, after all. Though, it's important to point out that the concept of leveling in TO is a bit more restricted: once you get to Midlight's Deep/Deep Dungeon in FFT, you can get all characters to level 99 since the monsters are 6-9 levels higher than you, yet at the same time you train about 5 or 6 good ones and the monsters eventually scale with your party. If you play without Midlight's Deep/Deep Dungeon, just by cruising through the game you can finish it in about level 45-50, which is Matsuno's sweet range.

And yes, Hell Gate is brutal. You probably have tried it twice for the Fireseal, no? Though, it's not THAT bad, and if you're lucky, you can get items that are worth more than anything in the game thus far. Granted, it IS boring, but it is also a challenge even for the prepared people.

However, it wasn't you whom I was answering: it was Zevox, who claims that FFT was not the best game in the genre. It was mostly a pre-emptive answer, though how well that answer is may not be as good as I think of. Who knows, maybe he says TO is even worse, which will prompt the inevitable question.

I...don't think I ever used that spell, if any of my people even had it available. But yes, it was a pretty easy game in general. I don't recall any problems with the penultimate boss fight, although the one optional fight where you kept going up against progressively stronger waves of enemies by touching pillars of light was the rare bit of difficulty in that game.

It's a tad difficult if you don't know anything about the actual game thus far. On spoilers:

Spoiler

Show

I think even Melf's Acid Arrow, a conjuration spell, cannot bypass the spell immunity of the Stone Golems, and my characters already had 8th-9th level spells. I was using a Cleric and a Wizard alongside a Paladin, a Rogue, a Bard and a Ranger, so you may figure that it wasn't very good. Evard's Black Tentacles can't stop them, but the fact that you can get ALL of the treasures in the chests and paralyze green Dragon Alia with a single spell is ridiculous to no extent.

As for that quest, it depends on how well you know the game. It wasn't a challenge until you get to the Mindflayers, since they can force suicide and Mind Blank isn't there to help you (though I'm not sure if Protection from X is there; gotta check out). But once you handle the Mindflayers, the rest is easy; I rarely had any trouble, and you can rest if you need it for preparing the right spells, so that's questionable.

You don't mention Jeanne d'Arc; if you haven't played it, I definitely recommend it. Probably the best original SRPG I've seen in years. A bit on the easy side would be the only real complaint I had about it. Probably very cheap by now, too.

Obviously I cannot speak of a game if what I know is far too limited. I heard of Jeanne D'Arc but couldn't recognize it as a tactical RPG (note it says Tactical RPGs, not Strategy RPGs which would include the first Ogre Battle and Ogre Battle 64), so I couldn't speak about it.

So I can understand why you think of the DS first when considering RPGs in general. But unless someone has a proper rebuttal on why the DS offerings in the SRPG genre beat the quantity and quality of what the PSP brings to the table in this area, I think we need to call in Raul Julia as M. Bison to say "Game....OVER!' on that notion.

Again, it's the balance of quantity and quality that matters. Disgaea pretty much cancels itself: Jeanne D'Arc can be confronted with Rondo of Swords (it is an awesome game as presented, mostly because how it plays with the genre); Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions beats FF Tactics A2, but some may think about the contrary (if they enjoyed the first game or if they love the class system which is my choice, as it is far more complex and rich than the FFT choices albeit the explanations are ridiculous and nearly non-existent), D&D Tactics has a learning and an appreciation curve (not everyone appreciates it, mind you, even if they're on a site that has an inclination for D&D), R-Type Command and Star Fox Command can also be paired off, Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume is equally bizarre but you can trust tri-Ace to do a magnificent job on that regard (rarely a VP game is considered weak or cruddy, and VP: Covenant of the Plume is considered the weakest of the three options which doesn't necessarily means horrible), and the choice of PSP games through PlayStation Network and assorted games contrasts strikingly with the DS's choice of GBA library or Virtual Console (might be wrong on that one).

Indeed, the PSP is slightly stronger on the tactical RPG market, but not curb-stompingly. It's more of a "well, why not do the third option and take both?", since both systems offer good choices for games and terrible choices for games.

Also, more respect for Julia, dude. Street Fighter wasn't his best interpretation, it was a joke and a rest before he perished. Better to remember him as Gomez, I'd say.

[hustlertwo]

Hey, it's a loving tribute. Julia's Bison stands as a testament to how one man can elevate a bad movie simply by chowing down on the scenery like the madman we knew he was. Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, however, now there's one to mock.

Mando, you haven't played the two best SRPGs for either platform. Tsk, tsk. And while you're not the first I've heard prefer Disgaea to FFT, it never ceases to baffle me, ever since I actually played the game and found that the supposed Tactics killer had a flaw of such magnitude that it overwhelmed virtually everything good about the title. I mean, I actually kinda like growing Cloud up in FFT, but there's a difference: this happens ONCE. And it's optional. Constantly training people up from level 1 in order to proceed through the class paths was a maddeningly stupid design choice that mars an otherwise engaging game. But if you're grind-happy, I guess it's mana from heaven. Myself, I find that sort of thing pretty tedious. I haven't even gotten a Dark Knight yet in War of the Lions, because of the grinding necessary to do so.

The dumbed-down nature of classes in TO compared to FFT limits strategic options, even with the added number of people in every fight. The monsters in Tactics sometimes have a better variety of combat options than half the classes in TO (and indeed, I did a playthrough just using Ramza and whatever monsters he could invite along, and it was rather interesting). As much as I enjoy FFT's story and characters, ultimately one of the reasons I've never found a SRPG to match it is that I enjoy the customization aspect, and if there's one that trumps FFT in that regard, I definitely haven't played it. Hell's Gate challenging? No, there were tough fights in that game, but none of them were there, as I recall. But I did not go through the second time. I'm not exaggerating, it literally took me several years to get through Hell's Gate the first time, because of my tendency to stop playing after a few floors of tedium. I wouldn't have gone down there again if Orlandu was waiting at the bottom. I realize the constant need for training battles inures the TO player to repetition and boredom, but that's above and beyond.

If you want to include the GBA offerings, then it does help the DS be less outclassed. Although in that case, I'd amend my statement of the PSP being the best platform for the genre to the PS2, since that has all the SRPG options for the PS1 available as well as what was released for the PS2 itself, a combined lineup that's very hard to top (I'd say PS3, but I don't know which SRPGs from the earlier systems might have fallen through the gaps of its backwards compatibility). I was speaking solely for games released on the particular platform in question.

[true_shinken]

Wow, so many answers!
I think I'll try Devil Survivor. Thanks.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hey, it's a loving tribute. Julia's Bison stands as a testament to how one man can elevate a bad movie simply by chowing down on the scenery like the madman we knew he was. Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, however, now there's one to mock.

Juliá was truly a great actor, and what he did in Street Fighter was to enjoy it rather than make a serious act. Van Damme knew he was on a movie to make money from a franchise, Juliá did as well; thus, both did something that required nothing so serious, in their own way. Van Damme treated it as an action flick (which it was), Juliá acted on it as if it were some sort of exercise, or rather, a comedy (which it would have been shocking, but awesome; it was a parody of Street Fighter rather than a serious flick, and the second attempt was even worse...)

The dumbed-down nature of classes in TO compared to FFT limits strategic options, even with the added number of people in every fight. The monsters in Tactics sometimes have a better variety of combat options than half the classes in TO (and indeed, I did a playthrough just using Ramza and whatever monsters he could invite along, and it was rather interesting). As much as I enjoy FFT's story and characters, ultimately one of the reasons I've never found a SRPG to match it is that I enjoy the customization aspect, and if there's one that trumps FFT in that regard, I definitely haven't played it. Hell's Gate challenging? No, there were tough fights in that game, but none of them were there, as I recall. But I did not go through the second time. I'm not exaggerating, it literally took me several years to get through Hell's Gate the first time, because of my tendency to stop playing after a few floors of tedium. I wouldn't have gone down there again if Orlandu was waiting at the bottom. I realize the constant need for training battles inures the TO player to repetition and boredom, but that's above and beyond.

Oddly enough, FFTA and FFTA2 trump FFT in customization. While it has the concept of the races that screws up a bit the twinking out, the classes and the successful mixing options in FFTA (and greater in FFTA2) allow for a much, much wider amount of customization. At least, I find that's the actual reason to play FFTA or FFTA2; toy with the races and the classes, even if the rest is forgettable.

As for Tactics Ogre, consider that the game came before Final Fantasy Tactics, and that Tactics Ogre: Knight of Lodis was mostly following in the footsteps. Indeed, you get at most 5 or 6 different options on high-end character (melee attack, ranged attack which differs with Ninja or Swordmaster, two or three spellcasting slots, unique attacks from one or two classes and the Hell's Gate special techniques), which in the end will seem like a rather weak option, considering you cannot draw aspects from other games.

But you have to see that from the source games. Tactics Ogre emerges from Ogre Battle, which had even more limiting options (one option for front and one option for back, with OB64 adding options for middle) but a squad system that balanced for it. Final Fantasy Tactics revamped the Final Fantasy V system, where you had the option to customize your characters by means of adding abilities from other classes, but they decided to organize the options; now the character can use one single Reaction, Support, and Movement ability as well as another class' Action Abilities, which led to a wider set of archetypes. However, the source games also have their own caveats: Tactics Ogre rarely had more than 10 enemies in line, and they also had the same weaknesses and strengths than you did, while in FFT the system rarely showed that kind of options you had.

However, when you look at it as a whole, you see that TO is just as great, if not better, than FFT. One thing is that Tactics Ogre had a deep political story, but unlike FFT, it also had links to an even GREATER story. Ogre Battle, Tactics Ogre, Ogre Battle 64 and Tactics Ogre: Knight of Lodis make for a more organic storyline, while Final Fantasy Tactics, FFT Advance and FFT A2 are kinda pushed into Ivalice Alliance, which weakens the story as just FFT and Vagrant Story could make for an interesting story. Another is that most of the concepts could balance each other: both games were made by Matsuno, both games had compositions by Iwata and Sakimoto, and there was collaboration between a great deal of the people that made TO and the ones that made FFT (mostly, only the art is different, and with the new TO the art will be done by the same people).

IMO, I think both are great and neither has to brag amongst the other. It also shows that when you let Matsuno do his job, things are done right. It also shows that Akitoshi Kawazu should stop making Crystal Chronicles games and retake SaGa, which is mostly abandoned and truly where he excels (but that he does fine attempts to cover for other producers).

If you want to include the GBA offerings, then it does help the DS be less outclassed. Although in that case, I'd amend my statement of the PSP being the best platform for the genre to the PS2, since that has all the SRPG options for the PS1 available as well as what was released for the PS2 itself, a combined lineup that's very hard to top (I'd say PS3, but I don't know which SRPGs from the earlier systems might have fallen through the gaps of its backwards compatibility). I was speaking solely for games released on the particular platform in question.

I added them because it's inevitable. But, I also made the distinction of whether you could choose from the GBA library or the Virtual Console library, depending on your model of DS. Virtual Console roughly cancels PlayStation Network (which I find kinda lacking, albeit it has Vandal Hearts which is good).

If it helps: neither the DS nor the PSP are the kings of TRPG. Leave that to the SNES (Fire Emblem, the original Tactics Ogre, Albert Odyssey, and so on) and the Genesis (SHINING FORCE!!!!!).

[Mando Knight]

If it helps: neither the DS nor the PSP are the kings of TRPG. Leave that to the SNES (Fire Emblem, the original Tactics Ogre, Albert Odyssey, and so on) and the Genesis (SHINING FORCE!!!!!).

I think that means:

Wii would like to play.

Ogre Battle and 64, Shining Force 1 and 2, and Fire Emblem 9 & 10 are all available at least on the NA Virtual Console, with more FE titles available in Japan. Because they want to save the localizations for more remakes or something, I guess.

[hustlertwo]

A PS2, however, would have:

-FFT
-Tactics Ogre
-Front Mission 3
-Vandal Hearts 1 and 2
-Gladius
-Disgaea 1 and 2
-Front Mission 4
-La Pucelle Tactics
-Suikoden Tactics

And whatever else there was I am not aware of offhand. If you throw in a PS3 with backwards compatibility, you also get Valkyria Chronicles, Vandal Hearts: Flames of Judgment, and both Shining Force games through the most recent Genesis collection.

And please T.G. The DS argument was kinda weak, but Genesis? It had Shining Force and....yeah. Based solely on games released for that system (although not just ones originally on that platform, otherwise PSP loses a fair number of titles and drops out of contention to the SNES or PS1), I'm still not seeing anyone that tops the PSP.

[T.G. Oskar]

A PS2, however, would have:

-FFT
-Tactics Ogre
-Front Mission 3
-Vandal Hearts 1 and 2
-Gladius
-Disgaea 1 and 2
-Front Mission 4
-La Pucelle Tactics
-Suikoden Tactics

And whatever else there was I am not aware of offhand. If you throw in a PS3 with backwards compatibility, you also get Valkyria Chronicles, Vandal Hearts: Flames of Judgment, and both Shining Force games through the most recent Genesis collection.

Recall that Front Mission 1 and 2 were SNES games, so they cancel out FM 3 and 4. Also, it depends on whether you can consider the original Ogre Battle (not Tactics Ogre, but the original Ogre Battle that also was released for PS1) as an SRPG, along with Der Langrisser (and IIRC, Langrisser/Warsong was released for the Genesis), Treasure of the Rudra and Treasure Hunter G which have battles that have tactical RPG concepts.

Then again, if you're speaking of PS2 games you've missed, you have to consider nearly 70% of all Nippon Ichi games (all Disgaea games, Makai Kingdom, La Pucelle and Phantom Brave), which is almost like playing Disgaea all over again. Oh, maybe Rhapsody if you wanna consider it (the quintessential PS1 beginner's TRPG). Or the SRW games, but that crossed all systems and thus far, SNES and GBA top the list of games with SRW releases.

And please T.G. The DS argument was kinda weak, but Genesis? It had Shining Force and....yeah. Based solely on games released for that system (although not just ones originally on that platform, otherwise PSP loses a fair number of titles and drops out of contention to the SNES or PS1), I'm still not seeing anyone that tops the PSP.

That was mostly referring to games of that era, not specifically the Genesis. But, IMPO, Shining Force >>>>> Fire Emblem. Yes, consider that blasphemy if you'd like, but ironically FE is even more stringent than Tactics Ogre/Ogre Battle (not to mention mindscrewing; I don't speak about the story which is wonderful, tho). But Shining Force was simpler, and for some reason a bit more complete than FE has ever been battle-wise.

Though, if we're speaking of covering all bases...Saturn. Neither PSN, nor XBLA, not even Virtual Console have ever reclaimed Shining Force III and Dragon Force from the bins. Those two games alone could have made me buy a Saturn over a PSX.

But again: PSP isn't the end-all be-all of TRPG games. There are other systems that have a wide amount of TRPGs, and games that are easier to remember (ask me if I can recall anything about "Gladius"). I do notice one thing, though: DS and PSP are full of remade games and ports, which can be both a blessing and a curse for the systems. I wouldn't abandon the DS for nothing, nor I would refuse to play the PSP because one system is better than the other; however, if I'm going to decide which game has the bigger and the better TRPGs in tow, I wouldn't say one surpasses the other in such a way that completely eliminates the competition. Mostly because you're shooting yourself in the foot if you do so.

[hustlertwo]

It's not blasphemy. Fire Emblem is overrated.

It seems difficult to classify the Ogre Battle games as RPGs at all; how are you 'playing a role' when you don't even have direct control over your units? Strategic certainly, but RPG I would say is an ill-fitting classification.

By all accounts, Front Mission 3 is the best in the series by a wide margin, so it isn't really canceled out by its predecessors. It's probably the second-most regarded Square SRPG after Tactics.

If you don't recall Gladius, I'm guessing you didn't play it. Story was bollocks, but the premise and mechanics took the genre in some refreshing new directions. Pity it sold like crap (since they had intended to do a sequel until that happened), but then the SRPG genre is probably bigger in Japan than here, and the Japanese can be hit and miss with games developed outside of their country. Plus, I don't recall much in the way of marketing for it, probably should have spent more money on that and less getting Velma to do the voice work.

I'm not sure why you think it's somehow damaging to say one system is superior in the genre over the other. It's not like saying that automatically makes you not allowed to purchase ones on the other platform. I pondered a DS, but couldn't find enough to bring me in. If I had, however, Front Mission would have been an immediate get for me. That's probably it for me as far as DS SRPGs, though. Maybe the Star Fox game, although I don't really know why you classify it as a tactical RPG. Wiki, at least, does not seem to concur. I already have Disgaea, that Rondo of Swords game you mentioned appears not to be the most critically acclaimed title ever (which makes me call into question how you can consider it a counter to Jeanne d'Arc), and I'm not likely to get another Valkyrie Profile game after getting burned by Lenneth. That was an even bigger letdown than Disgaea; at least that game had redeeming characteristics. VP was just....blah. Not a good use of $25. As for the Super Robot Wars series, I hadn't even heard of them before this thread. Looks like only one made it over here for the DS, though.