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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    I hate gnomes because Pathfinder just released a bunch of neat magic feats that are gnome-only for some idiotic reason. Fortunately my GM let me take Effortless Trickery anyway...



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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    I've never had a problem with gnomes. They share a little bit of common ground with dwarves, but not enough to step on their toes. In my mind, they're very tied to the land, but they're very welcoming about it. It'd be easy to be part of a gnome burrow, if you had some interest in the stone and the area around it. This is in contrast to dwarves, who would let you sit at their halls, but wouldn't let you be WITH them.

    Oh, and I find the "propensity for long and multi-part names" to be hilarious. It's also a great way to make acronyms.

    I hate what they did to them in 4e, though. They're much too cool to be lumped in with the elves and eladrin and other pricks from the Plane of Sue. Gnomes can be plenty magical without needing the little [fey] tag.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cicciograna View Post
    One of my favourite PCs was a Gnome Illusionist who pissed off all of his comrades with cruel pranks: once I rolled a natural 20 on the Alchemy check (3rd Edition) to craft a "Potion of diarrhea" and managed to pour it on the rations of the ranger of the group. He passed the following 3 days in the wild as "Nature made a particularly urgent call"!
    This is why.

    And as the others have said, they're simply redundant. You already have dwarves, and you already have halffings. What niche do gnomes take? Why do you need so many short races in your campaign anyway?

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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fri View Post
    This is why.

    And as the others have said, they're simply redundant. You already have dwarves, and you already have halffings. What niche do gnomes take? Why do you need so many short races in your campaign anyway?
    Gnomes are a merchant and trader race, dwarves are craftsmen, halflings are nomadic gypsies.

    They all have a nitch.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Personally, I find gnomes amusing and good to keep around if lacking noteworthiness outside of their illusionistry. I've seen gnomes of differing personalities and characterizations, though they all tend to be chipper and in some sense lacking a "normal" mindset.

    I reserve my racial hatreds for kobolds.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    In my Campaign world I basically made made Smurfs Gnomes illusionist trap makers who constantly out think Gargamel and his Baba Yaga and her legion of Hags who want to harvest them to make gold to eat them.

    I myself love Gnomes but find it hard to do much with them because if I differentiate them too much so they have their own feel, I piss off players who are too used to them being tricky illusionists or crazy inventors.


    Edit: I'd like to go on record for pledging my allegiance to Kobolds by the way, name ONE Gnome who is better than Deekin.
    Last edited by JGoldenberg; 2010-06-30 at 11:14 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Unwritten rule: You gotta hate Elves or Gnomes. I love Elves. Do the math.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Unwritten rule: You gotta hate Elves or Gnomes. I love Elves. Do the math.
    I actually hate elves. Too many players play them as prissy better-than-thou mary sues. I solved that by making Elves tribal savage lion riding badasses. Let's see my players pull that crappy superiority complex now when they're using spears.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGoldenberg View Post
    I actually hate elves.
    That's unfortunately common.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Gnomes are cool. -2 STR, +2 Con with Small size is great for several classes. They get 4 spell-like abilities which improve their versatility a lot at low levels along with +1 DC to Illusion spells.


    Gnomes also have lots of different variants that improve their versatility.

    The Whisper Gnome is a very popular favorite, although they sacrifice some of their spellcasting boosts.

    Chaos Gnomes are a great +1 LA race that get a lot of nice benefits if you're in a campaign with an LA buy-off. +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 Caster level on Chaos Spells, a reroll 1/day, and 5 spell like abilities are great.

    Forest Gnomes get Pass without a Trace at-will, +4 to hide and another +4 in forest areas

    Lesser Deep Gnomes are amazing too. They keep all the gnome's advantages (except trading +2 Con for +2 Dex) and get a bunch of new bonus traits.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Unwritten rule: You gotta hate Elves or Gnomes. I love Elves. Do the math.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Edit: I'd like to go on record for pledging my allegiance to Kobolds by the way, name ONE Gnome who is better than Deekin.
    Gnome Chompski

    Kobolds tend to bore me, as I always see them done the same way, highly organized and huge on elaborate and/or layered traps everywhere. The lack of variation on this, coupled with good chunks of my playgroup going "There are kobolds there? Nope, not touching that" like kobolds are inherently a dangerous opponent get me...tired of them without dealing with them at all.

    If nothing else, gnomes can make me giggle.
    Last edited by Thiyr; 2010-06-30 at 11:33 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Ah, gnomes. In 1e, they were unique amongst the demi-humans for two things: First, they had no racial modifiers. Secondly, they could be illusionists. They also had the ability to speak to burrowing mammals, giving them a great utility for someone willing to work at that. Gary described them thusly:

    "Gnomes are most lively and full of humor -- often on the black side or practical jokes. They enjoy eating and can drink as much as dwarves do. They are sly and furtive with those they do not know or trust, and even somewhat reserved with most bigger folk such as elves or humans. Gnomes love all sorts of precious stones, and they are masters of gem polishing and cutting. In most other respects they are not unlike dwarves, but they enjoy the open world of growing things almost as much as their mines and burrows."

    From this, we get an interesting picture of gnomes, but one I think was disrupted by Unearthed Arcana; with the introduction of Hill Dwarves, the aspect of "dwarves who are about in the world" was somewhat lost.

    In many ways, I like the introduction of cantrips to all gnomes (so much I did it before WotC released 3e); it gives them clearer differentiation from dwarves, and while I'm not sure I like the "fey" aspect that has been given to them, they work well as characters who have seen the world, but not necessarily become jaded to it.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    I'm fine with gnomes. One of the longest-lasting and well-made characters I've played with (not mine, mind) is a gnome. She was somewhat smurfy for a while... (small and very blond, and got turned blue)

    People complaining about how samey they are might be interested in my (and my ex-co-DM's) world. There are three main groups of gnomes:
    1. The gnomes of the Goblin Isles. According to legend the islands were originally occupied by goblins, but then the gnomes wiped them out. Other people think it was just a case of mistaken identity or a nickname for the gnomes. Anyway. the Goblin Isles are more or less based on the Caribbean, and the gnomes themselves are based on the Caribbean pirates (or pirates of the Caribbean, if you will), if those pirates all had medieval European-style city-states on the islands that had constantly shifting alleigances and wars. These gnomes are technologically advanced, because they're constantly in an arms race with each other. Warforged are set to be developed sometime soon, but mostly as plantation workers, to keep the economy going at home while the populace is at war. One city of theirs my party's visited is made up of huge spires towering into the air, and plunging deep underground, possibly as far.
    2. Continental gnomes, on the mainland, who are like the Jews of medieval times. They are the moneylenders and businesspeople, known to be untrustworthy, devious and tricksy, but still the people to whom everyone goes for their moneychanging needs.
    3. The Clifftown gnomes are the more typical, silly, prankster, tinkering, illusionist types. They're sort of a colony of gnomes far, far inland, in the Highlands, who have sort a life of peace and experimentation, away from the troubles of the Goblin Isles.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    ^: There've been Scandinavians with the name, so... quite plausibly.

    And the overwhelming majority worship Tiamat instead and are largely in thrall to dragons as opposed to living for themselves.

    He's such a good divine beacon for the kobolds, really looks out for his people.

    Frankly, from what we can glean from his life and what state kobolds of the current era are in, koboldkind would have been better off with some example surviving of a nation of kobold who were not slaves and had something impressive to go to their names rather than hovels to lay more eggs in.
    Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

    Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

    Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?

    Not that I didn't enjoy reading this and agree, but you would make an awesome propagandist for Kobolds.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Y'know, with the way I have the metaphysics of my game world, Garl and Kurtulmak would probably be opposing aspects of the same over-deity...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGoldenberg View Post
    Not that I didn't enjoy reading this and agree, but you would make an awesome propagandist for Kobolds.
    And as a bonus, Bayer's completely right.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    I like gnomes a lot. This is because fantasy racism is HILARIOUS (which, itself, is for the same reason that most jokes told in America are racist or sexist in some way).

    So I hate gnomes a lot.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

    Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?
    Well, there was this one time that he collapsed this guy's throne room on him and the arch-devil he was entertaining at the time.

    Yep, apparently Kurtulmak wasn't quite so innocent at the time. Garl moreso had issue with the whole "consorting with evil outsiders" than the fact that gnomes were, yknow, being gnomes instead of getting money like the kobolds. The joke Garl ultimately pulled with this is kinda reminiscent of panel seven of this.

    Poor, poor kobolds, getting their mines collapsed for consorting with evil outsiders, how COULD that meanie Garl do such a thing? [/sarcasm]
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

    Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?



    Eberron gnomes and whisper gnomes are ok though.
    This is also why I hate gnomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thiyr View Post
    Well, there was this one time that he collapsed this guy's throne room on him and the arch-devil he was entertaining at the time.

    Yep, apparently Kurtulmak wasn't quite so innocent at the time. Garl moreso had issue with the whole "consorting with evil outsiders" than the fact that gnomes were, yknow, being gnomes instead of getting money like the kobolds. The joke Garl ultimately pulled with this is kinda reminiscent of panel seven of this.

    Poor, poor kobolds, getting their mines collapsed for consorting with evil outsiders, how COULD that meanie Garl do such a thing? [/sarcasm]
    Lesse, was Kurtulmak a god back then ? Did any other kobold get crushed at that time ? Also, kobolds dont horde money for their own gain. They usually offer it to the dragons. And last I checked, metallic dragons horded shinies too, without being killed by bored dieties for it.

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Given that the only source we have of Kurtulmak's massive injustice is... well, Kurtulmak, history has taught us (or at least me) to assume such accounts are just a tad bit biased and take them with a large grain of salt.

    But even if we take Kurtulmak, Grummsh, Lloth, Zarus, Laduguer, Deep Duerra, Maglubiyet, Urdlen, The Dark One etc. all at their word... if we assume that every god that offers the Good domain was a complete bastard to them during their formative years, and that each one reluctantly assumed the mantle of divinity to shepherd their poor disadvantaged peoples to a brighter future of intolerance... In what way does that excuse the atmosphere of racism, infighting and consorting with fiends/chromatics that every single one of them has carefully cultivated within their churches over a period of centuries, and show no signs of wanting to stop?
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-07-01 at 01:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    ^: Wait, Zarus consorts with fiends? I thought he was one of those rare evil dudes who refused to engage with them.

    Bayer: Never said revering the dragons made 'em evil. It does, however mean that they don't live for themselves and are essentially worthless as a coherent people as a result. Or maybe I just have something against races of slaves. Don't really do anything for me.

    Now, worshiping the goddess of adventurers on the other hand...
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeppio View Post
    And as a bonus, Bayer's completely right.
    The one I read they gave the guy a choice, either use the collective anguish and souls of his dead people to fully ascend to godhood or die and give them up and have them be given back their lives and home and freedom in complete reparations for what occurred.

    Maybe I'm misremembering something here, but, in any case, Gods of Revenge(tm) generally are not Good. Heck, St. Cuthbert was knocked down from Good to Neutral due to being a God of Retribution.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2010-07-01 at 02:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

    Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?



    Eberron gnomes and whisper gnomes are ok though.
    Yeah. Kobolds get a bad rap, but Gnomes are okay?

    They should trade places and have Kobolds be a player race while Gnomes live in sewers and serve as low level cannon fodder, but nooooo...

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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Maybe I'm misremembering something here, but, in any case, Gods of Revenge(tm) generally are not Good. Heck, St. Cuthbert was knocked down from Good to Neutral due to being a God of Retribution.
    Only in core. Otherwise he's Lawful Neutral (Good) instead of just Lawful Neutral. Hell, Oerth has Chaotic Good god of retribution and he's the Chaotic equivalent of Heironeus.
    Last edited by Agrippa; 2010-07-01 at 02:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Lesse, was Kurtulmak a god back then ?
    According to this story, yes.

    Or going with the other story where Kurtulmak was trying to kill all the other racial gods by collapsing his hall on them, and Garl showed up while it was being built due to the noise of construction, was impressed by the trap, and after figuring out how it worked, in attempting to see if it worked, sprung the trap before anyone else showed up on Kurtulmak. Either way, the events got Kurtulmak pissed at Garl and all of the gnomes, causing the racial feud...except that Garl really doesn't care about Kurtulmak and mostly just does it because the kobolds started being a threat more than anything.

    Note: none of these stories mention anything about Garl caring at all about Kurtulmak's wealth. And, in both of these stories, Kurtulmak -lives through it-. In the arch-devil story, the devil thought it was an assassination attempt and took Kartulmak and hung him by his tail over a volcano for 6 weeks. In the "Kurtulmak wishes to mass-murder the gods" story, he survives it in order to be pissed off at Garl for ruining his plan. So yes, dragons do get to hoard gold and shinies without being killed off by bored deities. So do kobolds.

    Edit:

    Also, kobolds dont horde money for their own gain. They usually offer it to the dragons.
    Not quite. Races of the Dragon has this to say

    Kobolds love jewelry, and individuals can be exceedingly particular in their tastes. Such jewelry is often crafted from an exotic array of colored metals, either mined from veins of rare ore or using different minerals smelted together to create new and unique amalgams. Kobolds are more than a little materialistic when it comes to accumulating baubles and trinkets, not unlike dragons and their hoards.
    Last edited by Thiyr; 2010-07-01 at 02:34 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    See, this is why I prefer Eberron's way of doing things, by having the Deities be abstract rather than "Oh hey guys, I've got STATS!"

    If you think about it, in a real life paradigm, it's entirely possible that the legend of Garl Glittergold and Kurtulmak's was born from land disputes rather than an actual conflict between deities.

    The Gnomes and the Kobolds are both cave dwelling races, and probably competed for resources. The story of Garl and Kurtulmak was probably born from the early conflicts between the two races, with each race demonizing the other's deity in the same way people in reality demonize the religions of their political enemies.

    This is also why my DM, (and I, myself, when I run games) upgrade all racial deities like Kurtulmak to the neutral end of the racial scale if a Good Deity of that race doesn't exist. Because that argument makes more sense if the actual dogma of a racial deity isn't always evil...

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tiki Snakes's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Under darker skies.

    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    So, you're going to take the word of a guy who is a self described Trickster God over the word of the guy even he admits he buried in a mine? Okay.

    Just thought I'd check. Carry on.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Optimator's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    SLC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why the gnome hate?

    I've never hated gnomes. I figure they're hated because of garden gnomes.

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