Why the gnome hate?

[Thiyr]

Actually, it was more of a pride thing. You know, for being crushed by a collapsed ceiling on the pretext of a joke...

Not from the point of view of a kobold: Player's handbook describing Garl collapsing the cavern of Kurtulmak as a joke; Deities and Demigods: same thing; Races of Stone: see Player's handbook. None of these say "It was for a just cause", more akin to "It was for the lolz". I'd be pissed off too if someone would collapse a wall over me just so he can say it was a joke, dont care about your broken shoulder.

Also, the two stories I quoted, from Dragon 61 and 332 respectively, don't have the colapse as a joke. First one is as a just reward for that whole "evil outsiders" bit. The second one is a joke...that Kurtulmak was trying to pull, which backfired. It very well likely is a pride thing, agreed there. But not because it was a joke. Kurtulmak seems more to have that Scooby-Doo "If it weren't for that meddling Garl, and those GNOMES." If anything, having Kurtulmak react like that is the joke.

[Snake-Aes]

I feel that way about every race that isn't a human.

Speciecist :p

[Coidzor]

Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

So... That's where all that thinuan stuff originated from...

[Eldariel]

I feel that way about every race that isn't a human.

Why do you consider Humans necessary? I never liked their presence in fantasy worlds.

[Optimystik]

You mean these salamanders?

It's a long step from creatures that are usually evil (salamanders) to the ones that are made of evil (devils.)

I just found it funny because they were tacked on almost as an afterthought.

Why do you consider Humans necessary? I never liked their presence in fantasy worlds.

Funny, I say the same thing about elves.

[Bayar]

The fact that there are good dragon deities in the draconic pantheon does not mean that Kobolds worship any of them.

In fact, the three good dragon deities you mention (I assume you mean Bahamut, Hlal and Tamara?) only count Dragons among their faithful, NOT dragonbloods as some of the others do.

So you're going to need a little more evidence than that.

Please read the introductory paragraph of that appendix. Carefully this time. And that paragraph on page 48

From page 40:

"While gnomes and halflings often integrate into other races’ societies, kobolds turn inward. The kobold deity Kurtulmak (see page 48) doesn’t allow such fraternization."

Also, from page 49:

"Kurtulmak’s herald is a fiendish kobold 5th-level cleric/5th-level sorcerer/10th-level mystic theurge. His allies are horned devils, pit fiends, and salamanders."

That last reminds me of a certain trope, too.

The first part does not forbid an individual kobold or a tribe of kobolds to worship any other draconic deity. When the rest of society shows goodness towards kobolds, call me. Until then, I dont see a problem in contracting devils.

Oh, and kobolds? Usually LE. Gnomes? Usually NG.

Yes, and having humans as allies and big brothers might help you there. By the way, notice how most of the races at look simmilar to humans are tending towards the good scale, while those that look less as a human towards the evi scale ? (the humanoid ones at least).

[Knaight]

Why do you consider Humans necessary? I never liked their presence in fantasy worlds.

Because they kind of have to show up in some genres. They certainly aren't always necessary.

[Snake-Aes]

Because they kind of have to show up in some genres. They certainly aren't always necessary.

They don't have to. As long as the viewers can identify with the setting, it is good. Humans are just the easiest for that.

[Eldariel]

Funny, I say the same thing about elves.

Psh, everything is better with Elves! What's not to like about a race of pseudo-immortal mystical fey?

Because they kind of have to show up in some genres. They certainly aren't always necessary.

I find worlds feel much more...fantastic without Humans. As such, when playing fantasy in particular, I feel Humans detract more from the experience than they add. What genres did you have in mind?

[Optimystik]

Please read the introductory paragraph of that appendix. Carefully this time. And that paragraph on page 48.

Please reread the "Worshipers" bar under each of the three good draconic deities. And there's really no need to be snarky.

The first part does not forbid an individual kobold or a tribe of kobolds to worship any other draconic deity. When the rest of society shows goodness towards kobolds, call me. Until then, I dont see a problem in contracting devils.

If you don't see a problem with working with devils (really?), then our definitions of morality differ far too heavily for any meaningful discussion.

Yes, and having humans as allies and big brothers might help you there. By the way, notice how most of the races at look simmilar to humans are tending towards the good scale, while those that look less as a human towards the evi scale ? (the humanoid ones at least).

Zarus is more humanlike than all the rest combined - by your logic then, he shouldn't be Evil. (And he isn't, according to him.)

[okpokalypse]

Gnomes are the hobos of fantasy. OK joking aside I think "most" gamers dislike gnomes because they are always played the same way. Now I know what I just wrote will spew forth several dozen posts about wait I played my gnome like this or like this, I don't care. 99% of the time any given gnome in an RPG is role played in one of the same half dozen ways, it's just been done to death. It's like the character who becomes a hero do to his/her/its beloved peasant village being destroyed, let it go, move on, find another shtick.

Anti-Gnomite!

[Coidzor]

I hate gnomes because they are short, chubby, and puntable.
It should be noted that I hate halflings for the same reason (except maybe not chubby.)
Dwarves teeter in the same category (they're also hairy, which I dislike), but sometimes manage to escape, when they're not drink loving, scottish accented, or humor characters.

So... you hate human males and indeed, most mammals? And have some especial hate for the scottish?

The first part does not forbid an individual kobold or a tribe of kobolds to worship any other draconic deity. When the rest of society shows goodness towards kobolds, call me. Until then, I dont see a problem in contracting devils.

So... you fail to see being evil and doing evil things as something that would alienate non-evil factions? Or hell, even evil factions that know that dealing with fiends is a mug's game that just gets you involved in the blood war.

[Knaight]

I find worlds feel much more...fantastic without Humans. As such, when playing fantasy in particular, I feel Humans detract more from the experience than they add. What genres did you have in mind?

Low Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery come to mind, sticking within the fantasy genre. Space Opera as well.

[BlueWizard]

I know players who love the gnome.

[AmberVael]

So... you hate human males and indeed, most mammals? And have some especial hate for the scottish?

Side tangent!

Spoiler

Show

I don't mind the Scottish, but a Scottish accent is a particular Dwarven gimmick that is really, really annoying (because it is a gimmick, and usually just a gimmick. It doesn't add anything and tends to just grate on my nerves).

Excessive amounts of hair is also something I dislike. A standard human of either gender can be okay, but when they have things like really thick and gigantic beards or long body hair, I get icked out.
As such, as Dwarves feature this practically as a racial trait, which is why I dislike them as a whole. It is not, however, a shared feature by all human men. There is a significant portion who do not fit the category of "overly hairy."

The thing about dwarves is that they are unusually short, hairy, and tend to be surrounded by gimmicks. None of these things fit my preferred style whatsoever, and so I tend to dislike the whole race. By contrast, an old bearded wizard (or just a bearded wizard, I guess- it's just that "old and bearded" seems to be the standard fantasy thing) can get away with his beard without much comment on my part, because it is just one thing. With dwarves, it's one thing on top of many other things, which ends up being too much for me.

And yes, there are lots of mammals that I consider to have excessive amounts of hair. Of course, some have coats of fur, which is an entirely different matter... but I wouldn't necessarily consider it pretty. It's just no longer disgusting. Like, a dog is okay, because it is furry. An ape or monkey is generally not, because they are hairy.


Just to sum up though, and put it in perspective, I don't really care if other people want to play with these things. I know it's all my personal preference. And heck, even that has been broken a few times. I liked the hobbits in LotR. I've played a few dwarves myself, and seen others that I liked. There've even been some pretty nifty gnomes.

Generally though, I'd just as soon punt them all out the window and play with something else.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In Faerun, the fall of the drow is not tied to the fall of Lolth- but took place long after.

And the Crown Wars (which had the banishment of the drow part-way through) involved appalling behaviour by both the drow and the sun elves- but it's the dark elves that end up banished, even though it wasn't them who began the war. Even perfectly innocent dark elves were transformed. The sun elves do get some comeuppance, but not nearly as much.

I was pointing out that taking Kurtulmak side of the story as the truth was fool hardy when I referenced Lolth I was speaking of her fall in the 'default' setting. Both she and Kurtulmak appear outside of the Forgotten realms.

[Skeppio]

By the way, notice how most of the races at look simmilar to humans are tending towards the good scale, while those that look less as a human towards the evi scale ? (the humanoid ones at least).

This is my pet peeve with pretty much all fiction. All the "good" races are just humans with some minor changes. As in, elves are thin humans with pointy ears, dwarves are short bulky humans, gnomes are just tiny humans and so on.

And all the interesting creatures have massive LA and RHD grumble grumble....

[Grumman]

I have no problems with gnomes. Some gnome players suck, but they're the ones that think gnomes and halflings are kender.

I know players who love the gnome.

Not that there's anything wrong about that.

[Eldariel]

This is my pet peeve with pretty much all fiction. All the "good" races are just humans with some minor changes. As in, elves are thin humans with pointy ears, dwarves are short bulky humans, gnomes are just tiny humans and so on.

I don't really know; I mean, on physical appearance that's true but then, Elves are immortal natural spirits of sorts, Dwarves are basically semi-Earth Elementals and so on. The resemblances in more classical fantasy tends to be limited to looks.

If it really bothers you, give them different looks. I feel there's enough variety in their relation to the world and psyché and outlook to make them feel very distinct from Humans. If anything, I'd be complaining about most Evil humanoids; while not very Human-like in looks (different skin color), they tend to be very (primitive) Human-like in behavior and lifespan and so on.

[Lhurgyof]

Also, the two stories I quoted, from Dragon 61 and 332 respectively, don't have the colapse as a joke. First one is as a just reward for that whole "evil outsiders" bit. The second one is a joke...that Kurtulmak was trying to pull, which backfired. It very well likely is a pride thing, agreed there. But not because it was a joke. Kurtulmak seems more to have that Scooby-Doo "If it weren't for that meddling Garl, and those GNOMES." If anything, having Kurtulmak react like that is the joke.

Yeah, but Dragon isn't really all that prominent in D&D. It's on the edge of being 3rd party, whereas the PHB said that it was a joke by Garl. Plus, Kurtulmak has no sense of humor, so he wouldn't pull a joke himself.

Garl should surely have an evil point. Probably a chaotic evil point. xD

[Tiki Snakes]

Re: Kurtulmak telling jokes...
Yeah, I mean he's explicitely not got a sense of humour even.

Another one that amuses me is the idea that Asmodeus would (even if he could) turn up to say hi (in person, no less) to some old Kobold, ascended or otherwise.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Re: Kurtulmak telling jokes...
Yeah, I mean he's explicitely not got a sense of humour even.

Another one that amuses me is the idea that Asmodeus would (even if he could) turn up to say hi (in person, no less) to some old Kobold, ascended or otherwise.

I'm sure Asmodeus is invited to all the best evil parties, besides if it was for Kurtulmak to tell Asmodeus of his plans to collapse the cavern ontop of the other racial deities he might show up.
Which also handily ties two versions of the story together.

[Optimystik]

Yeah, but Dragon isn't really all that prominent in D&D. It's on the edge of being 3rd party, whereas the PHB said that it was a joke by Garl. Plus, Kurtulmak has no sense of humor, so he wouldn't pull a joke himself.

Garl should surely have an evil point. Probably a chaotic evil point. xD

This might be jumping the gun a bit.

"Garl once collapsed the cavern of Kurtulmak, the god of the kobolds. Since then, the two deities have been sworn enemies."

The passage before that mentions he plays pranks on other deities, but nowhere does it actually say that collapsing the cavern on Kurtulmak was one of those pranks. In fact, it doesn't go into his motives for doing so at all.

[Serpentine]

I am a little bit puzzled at the idea that Dwarves fill the master inventor niche. I never really saw Dwarves as much of the inventive type. Master craftsmen, sure. But inventing something totally new? I'm just not seeing it. To me, a dwarf would look at some gnomish contraption and think to himself, "Too complicated, too many things that could go wrong, look at that weak point in the construction! Just give me a good axe, it's proved itself effective over hundreds of years. Leave that newfangled thing to those silly beardless folk."

Real-world myth. Particularly/specifically Viking, I believe. They were the inventers and artisans of the world. Linkisourcey.

I like gnomes and kobolds... Even had kobolds kidnap the party's gnome for a solo adventure (when the player couldn't come to the actual game) once. It went pretty well, though would've gone better if I'd thought to check how many of her spells required material components.
But... Well, I suppose in my world I'm a lot more flexible with my racial alignments, and individual myths aren't usually very important.

Oh yeah, and I hate that Good is Beautiful and Evil is Ugly almost always (see: D&D3.5 nagas, real-life angel myth).

[Lhurgyof]

This might be jumping the gun a bit.

"Garl once collapsed the cavern of Kurtulmak, the god of the kobolds. Since then, the two deities have been sworn enemies."

The passage before that mentions he plays pranks on other deities, but nowhere does it actually say that collapsing the cavern on Kurtulmak was one of those pranks. In fact, it doesn't go into his motives for doing so at all.

Ah, someone said something about it being in the PHB.

[Optimystik]

Ah, someone said something about it being in the PHB.

Yes, that's where the quote in my post came from.

It's possible the description of him playing pranks on the gods might be connected to what he did to Kurtulmak, but I read it more as a way of bringing up why Kobolds and Gnomes hate each other so much in core. It doesn't provide any perspective into Garl's motives for causing the collapse.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I personally think gnomes are pretty cool. Especially gnome rogues. I had a friend who, in her campaign world, halflings didn't exist because she felt the gnomes had the "short person" niche filled perfectly. However, she did change them a bit. You had "angry gnomes" and "crazy gnomes." The angry ones were ill-tempered and scrappy, while the crazy ones were just wierd, some flipping their lips constantly or being obsessed with eating socks.

[Andion Isurand]

Gnomes are cool. -2 STR, +2 Con with Small size is great for several classes. They get 4 spell-like abilities which improve their versatility a lot at low levels along with +1 DC to Illusion spells.


Gnomes also have lots of different variants that improve their versatility.

The Whisper Gnome is a very popular favorite, although they sacrifice some of their spellcasting boosts.

Chaos Gnomes are a great +1 LA race that get a lot of nice benefits if you're in a campaign with an LA buy-off. +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 Caster level on Chaos Spells, a reroll 1/day, and 5 spell like abilities are great.

Forest Gnomes get Pass without a Trace at-will, +4 to hide and another +4 in forest areas

Lesser Deep Gnomes are amazing too. They keep all the gnome's advantages (except trading +2 Con for +2 Dex) and get a bunch of new bonus traits.

My favorite gnomish subrace are the Arcane Gnomes from Dragon Magazine 291 (pg 34).

They have the same features as the standard gnome, except:

+2 Int, -2 Wis (in addition to -2 Str, +2 Con)
Use Magic Device is always a class skill
they lose the Speak with Animals ability
have Wizard as their favored class

...except they were written for 3.0 gnomes.

...and thankfully they aren't as annoying as Tinker Gnomes from Dragonlance.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Do you know why whisper gnomes are considered one of the best non-la races? because they should have an LA.

[hamishspence]

Oh, and kobolds? Usually LE. Gnomes? Usually NG.

Ironically, Races of Stone's community tables show that significantly less than 50% of Gnome communities are dominated by a NG power centre.

Unlike most Usually X races.

Races of the Dragon's community tables, show that while a large proportion of kobold community power centres are LE, some are Neutral or Good.