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Thread: "Perfect" Feats

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    Default "Perfect" Feats

    I'm trying to figure out which Feats are "perfect", and by "perfect" I mean "balanced".

    For example, "Run" has been considered a horrible Feat since the days of yore when 3.0 first came out. "Power Attack" is one of the best Feats a warrior-type can get. "Leadership" is broken because it can so easily be abused.

    (Amazingly enough, I don't think I've run into a discussion about which Feats ARE unbalanced one way or the other...)
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Well, it obviously depends on where you set the bar. Do you see Power Attack as the pinnacle of balance, or should feats be more in line with Weapon Focus? Or more like Quicken Spell?

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    In Core,
    • Improved Initiative
    • Combat Reflexes
    • Rapid Shot
    • Empower Spell*
    • Extend Spell*
    • Heighten Spell
    • Maximize Spell*
    • Quicken Spell*

    ... strike me as the most-balanced.

    With "Honorable Mentions" to Improved Trip, Augment Summoning, Improved Critical, Cleave, and Two-Weapon Fighting. (Improved Trip is mildly too good; the others are mildly underwhelming, though certainly not "bad" on the right builds.)

    *Assuming you don't combo them with metamagic reducers.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-07-01 at 11:50 PM.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Well, it obviously depends on where you set the bar. Do you see Power Attack as the pinnacle of balance, or should feats be more in line with Weapon Focus? Or more like Quicken Spell?
    As much as I hate to say it, I'm going for a popular vote on this one. For example, when people talk about the Fighter and various builds, there are particular Feats that show up and others that do not. You talk about Weapon Focus as a Feat that is not related to entrance into a Prestige Class, and you'll get half a dozen optimizers pointing out that it is a really bad Feat.

    On the other hand, Leadership is just broken, especially if the DM isn't paying attention and does something stupid, like letting the player design and play the cohort. Suddenly, the PC is running around with four different NPCs, all under his control.

    I think Power Attack is well-balanced... but that's only because it is a vital Feat to a great many builds, allowing the warrior-types to do a lot of damage. Of course, the non-warrior types are doing all these other things that a Barbarian doing 1d12 + 357 points of damage really isn't all that impressive anymore.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    In Core,
    • Improved Initiative

    ... strike me as the most-balanced.
    Maybe I don't get the mechanics of D&D as well as I like, but I don't think that Improved Initiative is that great of a Feat. Perhaps you can convince me otherwise.

    As I see it, most combat begins out of direct melee range. So if you are a front-line type, you have two choices (mostly): close the distance or wait for them to close. If you close the distance, you can't make a full attack, and if you wait for them to close, you can. Starting at 6th-level, waiting for them to get into your space makes a lot of sense because it means they get one attack off on you while you get two. All Improved Initiative does is make it more likely that you'll be the one who has to get up to them first to attack.

    Furthermore, all Improved Initiative does is make it more likely to act first... for the first round. Once combat goes into the second round, the ability to shape the battlefield by having the opening gambit diminishes. By round two, that Improved Initiative isn't doing anyone squat.

    On the flip side, yes, it does mean that it is more likely for your rogue to act first on the first round of combat and get his Sneak Attack damage, or that your wizard will be able to get off a spell before anyone else. I'll give you points for the rogue, but the wizard getting off a spell early isn't necessarily a good thing, or at least, not as good as might be imagined. Going first and popping off a spell might help a lot, or it might cue every other enemy who has yet to go that there is a wizard who needs to die. Furthermore, Improved Initiative only helps out during combat (and again, only really during the first round). A good metamagic feat can be useful both outside of combat and after the first round of combat.

    Mind you, this is also something of a problem with the way D&D combat in general works. In real life, getting the drop on someone is deadly, and the closest thing to that is the rogue's Sneak Attack. If combat was such that a single hit could seriously wound or even kill an opponent, stealth and initiative would be much more important in swaying battles.

    *Assuming you don't combo them with metamagic reducers.
    Yeah, that... is a problem.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    If you close the distance, you can't make a full attack, and if you wait for them to close, you can.
    If they never close, then you're a pincushion. At best. If you win initiative, you can choose to delay until your enemy comes charging at you if you so choose. Lose initiative, and the wizard picks you off with a save-or-die spell.

    Is it super-special-awesome? No. But it can help those who need to make sure they can position themselves to victory first.
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2010-07-02 at 12:14 AM.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Actually, as-is most Metamagic is too costly. Even Quicken, which is godly because the action economy is the quickest route to power, is very difficult to use with +4 spell levels. Weaker ones - Empower, or worse Maximize, or much worse with Enlarge, just are inefficient. Metamagic reducers very quickly turn this around, and then they become overly powerful, but a lot of Metamagic feats would be better-balanced, I think, if they cost one less than they do.

    The +1's are even more problematic. Making them free is probably too much, but there are problems with Still and Silent.

    Overall, the Sudden Metamagic feats are probably the best balanced, but they're also a lot less fun.

    Anyway, I'm going to toss Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, and Practiced Binder, Shape Soulmeld and Open _____ Chakra, and Martial Study and Martial Stance as simply excellent feats. They let you get a bit of uniqueness in a build, and each gives about what a feat should, while protecting the uniqueness of the classes that get them. The worst of the lot are probably the Pact Magic ones, since the Improved and Practiced versions ultimately don't get you all that much and three feats is getting very costly, but they're still good enough to list, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    *snip*
    Winning initiative has a different value for different characters.

    I think it is most valuable for casters since, with a single spell, they can completely change the dynamics of the combat. A single haste spell majorly changes the dynamics by granting allies mobility and by increasing their damage output. Likewise, a single slow spell, if cast before an enemy force charges, can let allies run circles around their foes whilst peppering them with arrows. Battlefield control spells are even more striking in this way. A single solid fog or wall spell completely reshapes the battlefield in your favor. All of these spells benefit from being cast as early as possible since they affect all that is to come afterwards.

    For ranged combatants, winning initiative is valuable, but not too necessary. It allows them to get in the first volley before their foes start closing in. Not bad.

    Melee combatants can greatly benefit by winning initiative, but these benefits are more situational than those casters reap. In some situations, the terrain is such that he who acts first gains a great advantage over his foes. If, for example, there is a choke point that enemies must move through to reach the party, the first meleer there can secure much protection for his/her allies.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    ^What Mando said.

    Plus, if you lose initiative, and you don't win combat in a round, you have to deal with a second set of attacks. If you win initiative, you have a second round of attacks to disable the opposition before they can attack again.

    As a PC, it adds up. If you go through the recommended 4 a day, if you win all four times and clean up in two rounds, you've saved yourself 4 rounds of damage and healing. If you lost those four initiatives, and still won in 2 rounds, you've taken an extra four rounds of attacks. This may mean you blow all your healing for the day, or worse.

    Honestly, if your going for balance, I'd almost have to say Weapon Focus. It helps everyone in the same way. WF(Ray) or WF(Greatsword) both improve the ability to hit with them.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Improved initiative is a great feat:

    -in higher levels of play, he who acts first and acts most often has the greatest advantage. Sure, that wizard popping off a spell first may not be great. But that's only if he doesn't have the right kind of spell handy. If he does, the encounter can be over before it starts. A well placed rogue, if he has initiative could one shot the wizard before he has a chance to chuck the spell. (barring wizard-as-batman defense for every occasion shenanigans) The fronliner who gets initiative could possibly charge the enemy MVP and the archer-type can hold back to attempt to interrupt a caster with a hail of arrows. Improved Initiative helps everyone who will see combat at any point in a game. As the stakes get higher initiative becomes more important because if you don't act before your foe, there's a very good chance that you get shut down.

    Sure, it's not going to help you in any other aspect of the game, but neither is power attack, which doesn't benefit every class equally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn080 View Post
    Honestly, if your going for balance, I'd almost have to say Weapon Focus. It helps everyone in the same way. WF(Ray) or WF(Greatsword) both improve the ability to hit with them.
    While evenly accessible to all classes, Weapon Focus still, unfortunately, sort of sucks. A +1 to hit is really just not worth a feat. Especially if you are a non-fighter and have only 7 feats pre-epic.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Well, since I said it was more a popularity vote than anything else, I guess I'll concede about Improved Initiative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn080 View Post
    Honestly, if your going for balance, I'd almost have to say Weapon Focus. It helps everyone in the same way. WF(Ray) or WF(Greatsword) both improve the ability to hit with them.
    Wrong kind of balance.

    Yes, Weapon Focus helps everyone "equally", but given that you have only 7 Feats in 20 levels (ignoring what you get for your class), that +1 to hit doesn't help much at later levels.

    I'm not looking for balance as in "helps everyone equally", but balance as in neither "this Feat sucks" (see Run) or "this Feat breaks the game" (see Leadership).

    ...

    Just for the record, is everyone in agreement that Run is probably the worse of the Feats, nigh unto useless, and Leadership is the most potentially game-breaking Feat there is? Is there a Feat that is worse than Run or better than Leadership?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    Is there a Feat that is worse than Run or better than Leadership?
    One might argue that toughness is worse than Run.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    Just for the record, is everyone in agreement that Run is probably the worse of the Feats, nigh unto useless, and Leadership is the most potentially game-breaking Feat there is? Is there a Feat that is worse than Run or better than Leadership?
    Skill Focus and the +2/+2 skill feats are competitively bad, especially when taken in a weak skill or one that doesn't really need any help to hit its usual DCs (like Self Sufficient for Heal+Survival, or Deceitful for Disguise+Forgery.) Dodge is pretty horrible, largely because of the 'only one target that you have to remember to declare' thing. It'd be just normally bad if it was a flat +1 bonus to your AC. I don't think any of these are still quite as bad as Run, however, since you can at least find a reason to take one of them in the service of optimizing a particular skill check or other number. Run.. just seems pointless.

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    Skill Focus: Linguistics.

    Run is only pointless until you actually use a run action, then you kick yourself for not having it because you lost your dex mod to ac in the hopes of opening up some range.
    Last edited by ryzouken; 2010-07-02 at 12:46 AM.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    I'm not sure if it is possible to have a feat that is better than leadership, because leadership effectively gives you a number of feats one less than you have, an extra set of actions, and the ability to in two places at once. If a stronger feat exists then you could take leadership to get the feat and more
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom Ninja View Post
    One might argue that toughness is worse than Run.
    One might.

    I think one might lose too.

    +3 hit points... versus x5 movement instead of x4 IF you break into a full-run... and if I recall, you can't use Run if you are wearing heavy armor.

    I know Toughness isn't that great of a Feat, but it's not that bad. It even is a prerequisite for a few other Feats and some Prestige Classes. I don't recall Run even doing that.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    I have used Run in the past to play hit and run snipers in Modern games.

    In D&D, I'm not so sure of it's usefulness.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadowmind View Post
    I'm not sure if it is possible to have a feat that is better than leadership, because leadership effectively gives you a number of feats one less than you have, an extra set of actions, and the ability to in two places at once. If a stronger feat exists then you could take leadership to get the feat and more
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    I know Toughness isn't that great of a Feat, but it's not that bad. It even is a prerequisite for a few other Feats and some Prestige Classes. I don't recall Run even doing that.
    After all, what would they have used as a prerequisite for Trollblooded if not Toughness?
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    Feats are... complicated. I think I'll write out some examples that I think work well for my idea of what feats be.

    Power Attack (great melee attacker feat that scales with Attack increases)
    Extra Music (almost a must-have for a low level bard who likes to sing)
    Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip (works well for the intelligent fighter role, like a Factotum)
    Extend Spell (+1 level, but double duration. I love this metamagic feat, because it's effective and balanced, in my mind)
    Two Weapon Fighting (the entire line of feats could use some work, but for a low level rogue, it's perfect)
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain (Most of the weapons obtainable from this feat are terrible. A bastard sword is a waste of a feat. A fullblade could be excusable if your DM is cool and lets you use it for Intimidate bonuses)
    Track (This feat is often ignored, but can lead to all sorts of interesting opportunities. I'm always tempted to take it, then grab the ToB stance that gives Scent.)

    [more to come]

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Skill focus jump is worse then run because run gives a bigger bonus and the ability to run which might theoretically come up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterOfJello View Post
    Feats are... complicated. I think I'll write out some examples that I think work well for my idea of what feats be.

    Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain (Most of the weapons obtainable from this feat are terrible. A bastard sword is a waste of a feat. A fullblade could be excusable if your DM is cool and lets you use it for Intimidate bonuses)
    Just wanted to comment here - the reason why Exotic Weapon Proficiency is so bad, especially for bastard sword, is that if you don't have the proficiency, you fight two-handed - which is mechanically a better build than going sword & shield.

    If the combat mechanics of fighting with a shield were improved so that they were more realistic, then not only would you see more sword and shield fighters, you would see more people with EWP (bastard sword) - just so they could use the bastard sword in one hand while equipped with a shield in the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    On the flip side, yes, it does mean that it is more likely for your rogue to act first on the first round of combat and get his Sneak Attack damage
    I play a lot of Rogues, and I never take Improved Initiative.

    In the surprise round the critical factor is not being surprised. You achieve that with maxed out Spot and occasionally Listen, plus low-light vision or sufficiently long-range darkvision if it's not daytime. As long as somebody on the enemy side is surprised, they're flat-footed and you can probably sneak attack them with your ranged weapon. So, regardless of your initiative, you just pick a target who hasn't acted and let fly with arrow or bolt from your ready missile weapon.

    On the first regular round of combat you do the same thing: pick one or more targets who haven't acted yet and fire off a full missile attack. Your good DEX score is almost always going to give you better initiative than some of the enemy force. Here the important thing is that you stick with your ranged weapon, for two reasons:
    1. Closing for melee in the first full round is about the most tactically stupid mistake possible, because you won't get more guaranteed sneakable targets than at the beginning of combat.
    2. If you had closed for melee in the surprise round you would have only wasted one attack opportunity then ─ but there's no way to know if you would have picked a target with better initiative, or fortification, or some other reason why they're not sneakable. Sticking with the ranged weapon lets you choose among a variety of targets and not be committed to one, possibly bad, choice.
    In the second regular round of combat you don't especially need high initiative either. In particular if there's an ally who is going to move into melee combat you'll want to Delay until they do, so you'll be able to get sneak attack from their flanking support.

    There are hundreds of feats available, and you've got to do your analysis carefully to pick the best ones. If you want my recommendation for a couple of excellent feats, I nominate
    • Craven
    • Savvy Rogue
    Both of these feats scale: Craven with character levels, and Savvy Rogue with more Rogue special abilities. This is a characteristic shared with Power Attack, which scales with BAB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marriclay View Post
    After all, what would they have used as a prerequisite for Trollblooded if not Toughness?
    How about Improved Toughness... but it's named Toughness.

    Honestly, the only thing I dislike about Improved Toughness is you can only take it once. While yeah, it's not likely that you're going to take it with every feat (unless you're playing a crazy defensive tank, and even then) two or three times over twenty levels would be nice, and not terribly overly powerful.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    I feel PHB2 set some rather good precedents for melee.

    lv8 - melee weapon mastery (possibly replacement for weapon spec tree)
    Lv12 - robilar's gambit, armour mastery, bounding assault
    Lv18 - weapon supremacy, rapid blitz

    Spring attack is not a bad feat, but its requirements could be less steep, IMO.

    I am a little divided over feats such as weapon finesse and steadfast determination. They are good, but everyone with a much better dex or con score respectively will surely take them, making them feat sinks. IMO, there shouldn't be a feat which you feel your class absolutely has to take in order to function properly. However, they can help reduce MAD. Or perhaps that should be a feature already inbuilt into the stat system?

    Complete warrior's weapon style feats, though the prereqs are quite harsh.

    It is interesting to note that if everyone takes improved initiative (including monsters), that is as good as no one taking it at all. Another feat sink?

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Snap Kick. Dreamtelling. Close-Quarters Combat.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    +3 hit points... versus x5 movement instead of x4 IF you break into a full-run... and if I recall, you can't use Run if you are wearing heavy armor.
    I want you to explain to me how being able to reliably escape from a lot of encounters is worse than three extra hit points.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Skill Focus and the +2/+2 skill feats are competitively bad, especially when taken in a weak skill or one that doesn't really need any help to hit its usual DCs (like Self Sufficient for Heal+Survival, or Deceitful for Disguise+Forgery.)
    I think the problem with Skill Focus (and the +2/+2 feats, but I don't really like them) is that skills themselves weren't thought out well enough.

    Skill Focus (Jump) gets better when it becomes Skill Focus (Athletics), applying to Climb, Jump, and Swim--they've all become one skill. I understand the desire to split hairs and say, "Well someone might be bad at jumping, but that doesn't stop them from being a good swimmer." I know, but when you're seriously trying to make a character choose between jumping (Jump) and casting spells that let them jump better (Use Magic Device)... which one do you think they will pick?

    tl;dr, tyckspoon, while Skill Focus (anything) and the +2/+2 skill feats are weak, this is more so a weakness of the skill system rather than the feats themselves being 'poorly designed'.
    Last edited by Zovc; 2010-07-02 at 03:35 AM.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    Let me throw in this poll again, which I posted in the Homebrew forum but didn't get much response, yet.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Feats

    I can't believe with all the feats there are, that it never occured to wotc to try and develop class based feats to help the lower tiers.

    It stands to reason that class based feats make the most since. Casters generally don't need them, and it only enhances their already awesome potential. But rather then create class based feats for lower tier classes that dynamically challenge them against even the toughest caster build. They'd rather just create tree after tree.

    I don't think most players bother to discuss feat balance because it doesn't really matter. It won't help the bad classes, and it won't really show any difference in the good.

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