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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Basically, a challenge to create an optimised, flavourful character, using a "Secret Ingredient" of a particular PrC, different for each contest. You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

    Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

    Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

    Cooking Time: Contestants will have until Friday July 9th to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Private-Prinny. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying.

    Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

    Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavour for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic point lost in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.

    Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when anonymising the entries!

    Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

    Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.


    So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for about 5 judges and as many contestants as feel like playing!

    This week's Secret Ingredient is (I apologize in advance)...

    Complete Arcane's Green Star Adept!

    Allez optimiser!

    Judges
    arguskos
    Ingus
    Ozymandias9
    the humanity
    true_shinken

    Contestants
    Akal_Saris
    Amphetryon
    Arbitrarity
    Chineselegolas
    Fax Celestis
    Hand_of_Vecna
    Keld Denar
    Navigator
    Octopus Jack
    ShneekyTheLost
    The Vorpal Tribble
    WinWin

    Past Competitions

    Iron Chef I (Entropomancer)
    Iron Chef II (Psibond Agent)
    Iron Chef III (Cancer Mage)
    Iron Chef IV (Stonelord)
    Iron Chef V (War Chanter)
    Iron Chef VI (Master of Masks)
    Last edited by Private-Prinny; 2010-07-08 at 05:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Titan in the Playground
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    smile Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    1. I HATE GREEN STAR ADEPT. Nah, we coo, we coo, aightaight.

    2. Hey, look, I'm judging again. Go figure.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-07-02 at 08:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    1. You're an evil, evil monkey penguin, Prinny.

    2. I'll compete.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Well, I planned for this. Contestant entering here.

    Inquiry: How does the Improved Caster Level feature work? Does it give an additional 10 caster levels?
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-02 at 08:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    1. You're an evil, evil monkey penguin, Prinny.
    Sorry. I have a soft spot for interesting capstones (Interesting =/= Good).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Inquiry: How does the Improved Caster Level feature work? Does it give an additional 10 caster levels?
    Read the given example. That should clear things up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    CURSE YOU.

    That example doesn't even make sense due to BAB requirements!
    Also, I'm going to use it in a very silly fashion.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-02 at 10:27 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Every level improves CL. Because of the wording, I'm going to assume it gets factored in before any other CL boosts.

    I would like to compete if that is ok.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Fax, are you thinking the same trick I am thinking of?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Fax, are you thinking the same trick I am thinking of?
    I was, Arbitrarity.
    You can call me Draz.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I was, Arbitrarity.
    Come on, there has to be more than one trick you guys can pull. Shock and amaze me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I was, Arbitrarity.
    I am entertained. Did you derive why I asked Fax, and then jump to my concept?

    So now I have three builds, of varying simplicity, complexity, and power. One of them uses one trick, the others both use another. I like the second trick for simplicity, but it lacks originality. The first trick is questionable, and rather inelegant.

    Ech. In retrospect, the trick is pointless because of the nature of the third build. That makes it just simple, and ultimately unoriginal.

    First trick it is then. Hopefully comprehensible.

    Grrr, this thread
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-02 at 10:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    I am entertained. Did you derive why I asked Fax, and then jump to my concept?
    Nope, even better. I thought of your concept myself, then I saw Fax post and assumed he thought of the same concept, and thought maybe I wouldn't use it after all. Then I saw that you had come to the same conclusion about Fax posting (even though he, apparently, hadn't).



    One way or another, though, at this point I'm not planning to enter this round of Iron Chef. Though I'll change my mind if I get struck by inspiration.
    You can call me Draz.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    *grumble* stupid example. Complete Arcane errata even says that text trumps examples. And that means I don't even know what the RAW is for that new magical houseruled ability. Does that mean that the two features don't stack, or does it mean that the spellcasting advancement doesn't provide caster level advancement, or that caster level advancement only occurs every other level? For example, if I multiclass, can I apply the caster level advancement to one class, and the spellcasting advancement to the other, and end up with 15 total advanced caster levels (i.e. Fighter 2/wizard 2/Sorceror 2/GSA 10 with a CL of 12 for Sorceror, and 7 for wizard, with 7'th level wizard casting and second level sorceror casting), or arrrrgh brain explodes.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    oooh... I dunno about this one...

    Green Star...

    you are just mean Prinny.
    Last edited by the humanity; 2010-07-02 at 11:14 PM.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    *grumble* stupid example. Complete Arcane errata even says that text trumps examples. And that means I don't even know what the RAW is for that new magical houseruled ability. Does that mean that the two features don't stack, or does it mean that the spellcasting advancement doesn't provide caster level advancement, or that caster level advancement only occurs every other level? For example, if I multiclass, can I apply the caster level advancement to one class, and the spellcasting advancement to the other, and end up with 15 total advanced caster levels (i.e. Fighter 2/wizard 2/Sorceror 2/GSA 10 with a CL of 12 for Sorceror, and 7 for wizard, with 7'th level wizard casting and second level sorceror casting), or arrrrgh brain explodes.
    To my eye, it means that you apply a caster level advancement every level, and a "Spells known/spells per day advancement" as indicated (without CL increase). The don't seem to be linked though. And I wouldn't call it a house rule, but rather a more conservative reading of one of the most long-contested points of 3.5. We should get the chairman to give a formal ruling before the competition gets too far under way though:

    Is it:
    1)+10 CL and +5 levels of spells known/per day, linked
    2)as 1, but unlinked (applicable to different classes)
    3)+10 CL and +5 (CL, spells/day, spells know), linked
    4) as 3, unlinked

    Incidentally, in to judge.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-07-03 at 05:38 AM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    To my eye, it means that you apply a caster level advancement every level, and a "Spells known/spells per day advancement" as indicated (without CL increase). The don't seem to be linked though.

    Incidentally, in to judge.
    The wording is exactly the same as every other arcane casting PrC, except it lacks the clarifying "this essentially means that she adds the level of xxx to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly". It's the same as every PrC in complete arcane. Do you want to argue Master Specialist doesn't progress caster level?

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    The wording is exactly the same as every other arcane casting PrC, except it lacks the clarifying "this essentially means that she adds the level of xxx to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly". It's the same as every PrC in complete arcane. Do you want to argue Master Specialist doesn't progress caster level?
    Edit: Actually, since I don't see that clarifying text anywhere in "Complete Arcane". And Master Specialist is "Complete Mage," which calls it "spellcasting," not "spells per day/spells known." So you could certainly make that argument for, say, Alienist.

    Not that I would in general, but it's a sufficiently litigious reading to be backed up. In this case however, the goal of the competition is to show your character design skills, not to point out the flaws in 3.5 design. A conservative reading of questionable mechanics is in keeping with that goal.

    Also, I edited my prior post for clarity: its certainly not the only reading, but it's one of the more conservative. And the details of this effect have been questioned since the book came out.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-07-03 at 05:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    Is it:
    1)+10 CL and +5 levels of spells known/per day, linked
    2)as 1, but unlinked (applicable to different classes)
    3)+10 CL and +5 (CL, spells/day, spells know), linked
    4) as 3, unlinked

    Incidentally, in to judge.
    The bolded one.

    To clarify a bit, every level increases caster level, but every even level does it by virtue of increasing your spellcasting. They toss the special effect on there to indicate that every odd level gives you a CL boost only, as per the example (which, again, is illegal, but it serves its purpose).

    You get a CL boost to whichever class gets the spellcasting advancement, so Arbitrarity's example could end up with CL 7 for both wizard and sorcerer, with the spells per day/spells known of a 7th level wizard and 2nd level sorcerer.
    Last edited by Private-Prinny; 2010-07-03 at 07:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Oh, so it is Green Star Adept after all!
    I'm definetly in as a contestant!

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    To clarify a bit, every level increases caster level, but every even level does it by virtue of increasing your spellcasting. They toss the special effect on there to indicate that every odd level gives you a CL boost only, as per the example (which, again, is illegal, but it serves its purpose).
    I'm not sure about that, Prinny.

    Let's see Acolyte of the Skin text:
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    Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each even-numbered level, an acolyte of the skin gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved
    chance of turning or destroying undead, a bonus feat, and so on). If he had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an acolyte of the skin, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

    Now, GSA text:
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    Spells per Day/Spells Known: At every even-numbered level, a Green Star adept gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard). If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

    As you see, it's basically the same text. By your reasoning, Acolyte of the Skin would give you extra spells known and extra spell slots but no increase in caster level. I read as GSA's gaining a total of +5 level os spells known/slots and a +10 increase in caster levels; for a total of +15 to CL over the course of 10 levels.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-03 at 07:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    As already said, I'd like to judge this one.

    Look it good, cause the devil is in the details.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I'll try judging.

    This ought to be interesting.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I read as GSA's gaining a total of +5 level os spells known/slots and a +10 increase in caster levels; for a total of +15 to CL over the course of 10 levels
    That reading, while interesting, appears to contradict the ruling of the contest's final arbiter. I would be leery of making a build based on a reading of the Class that Prinny has stated does not apply to the contest, personally.

    Speaking of being leery, call my 'once bitten, twice shy' for asking: Are there any specific books that, while legal, are likely to cause any of our illustrious judges to downgrade our scores?
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I'd say go conservative because all it can really do is hurt you. Judges that don't like the stacking interpretation will hit you hard in elegance and realistically if the judge is ok with your reading it will help your power but they should apply the extra cl to the builds that don't point it out since that's how they interpret the rules. So a net loss for you.

    Anyway I think I'll compete this time around.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I would like to compete and build upon my 7th place I got last time, come on 6th OJ wants ya!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    That reading, while interesting, appears to contradict the ruling of the contest's final arbiter. I would be leery of making a build based on a reading of the Class that Prinny has stated does not apply to the contest, personally.
    Yeah, I'm just trying to change his mind on this. My build will work mostly the same way.
    Also, Complete Arcane errata even mentions that text trumps table and statblocks, so I'm even more inclined to say it is +15 CL on 10 levels. But if Prinny is set at +10 CL on 10 levels, that's okay.
    EDIT: Forget it. There is an example within the very text of the ability that disallows it. I believe PrivatePrinny catched onto this before me. Can't believe no one ever mentioned this on the CharOp board back in the day... Probably because of the RAWxRAI debate always going on there, but the RAI is so clear here with even an example to go with that RAW is completly irrelevant.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-03 at 08:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Can't believe no one ever mentioned this on the CharOp board back in the day...
    They did. The answer is usually that "Wizard 5 can't even enter anyways, and examples are unreliable."
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Since it could be useful, as past judges, I'll give some pre-contest guideline of my criteria.

    Originality: As this build expected, the most obvious way, already put together by others? If the former is someway true, is there any original addiction?
    So, to say: 1- Pretty obvious entry, pretty obvious mechanic, pretty obvious feats, equipment, classes selection; 5- Totally unexpected entry, totally unexpected dynamics, totally unexpected mesh out.

    Power: Does do a thing very well and has the flexibility to avoid anti-"that thing"? 1- Very poor build, not able to survive, nor fit well in a party unless greatly hepled or, as a monster, unlikely to pose a threat to a party of same level; 5 - Wizard + Incantatrix + Master of sevenfold veil? Eat my shorts!*

    Use of secret ingredient: Is the secret ingredient in some way crucial to the build? If not, is it at least good as - or better than - other solutions or even linear development? 1- Not only the secret ingredient is not crucial, but it seems also a waste of levels*. 5- Hey, without the secret ingredient your PC wuold be less powerful or less elegant or less suited for the story. Moreover, you created a dynamic not reproducible if not for the secret ingredient, or at least so difficult to mimic that it would be a waste of time and resources*.
    *Note that I'll not be strict with that. Does not consider everything that is not Tier 1 less than optimal in this sections. Just think: given my decision of what my entry wuold be/do, is the secret ingredient fit or it is a waste/hamper?

    Elegance: This is difficult. Since I like backstory, you'll have a plus if will provide a good one. You will have a plus if the backstory matches well with the character. Use of light cheese is tolerated i mechanically works and tends to add flavour. If it seems solely added for power, you'll have a higher score in power, a lower in elegance. I don't ban any book allowed, but as usual use of flaw hits elegance, mechanical excesses hit elegance (see Seera from past Iron Chef), carving blood from stones definitely hits elegance.
    1- Use of well known cheese (it hits originality too), not in line with the backstory and/or the general purpose of the build, just to improve power. Overall role and do and dont's absent 5- Wandeful base concept, very well exploited and shown up, explaination to understand the goods and bads of entry, all fitted well in the concept and backstory**.
    **You don't need to write much. Few good words can be equally good.

    Overall, I guess I'll go between 2 and 4, giving more or less than that to those whom deserve it

    As suggestions: Green Star Adept seems good for gishes. I expect a melee, magical emproved combatant that exploits his resistences. There are a lot of more exploits, but if you're unsure, go straight.
    Good luck to everybody
    Last edited by Ingus; 2010-07-03 at 11:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    They did. The answer is usually that "Wizard 5 can't even enter anyways, and examples are unreliable."
    But that's irrelevant within the confines of the aforementioned rule. It's within the same block of text, not within a statblock, so it is in fact part of the class rules, even if it contains an incorrect example.
    Heck, I'll have to edit my handbooks because of this.

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