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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I believe I'm being mocked

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I'm entering! Now I'll go read the excerpt carefully and drop in an entry soon.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Not meaning any offense to Mr. Saris at all, but it bothers me that judges count off points because someone gets reach and Improved Trip. To me, this is like a Wizard preparing Fly. Why wouldn't you use the staples of being effective? This is particularly bad because, unless you're initiating maneuvers, melee combat really doesn't have many options while mages have thousands of spells to choose from. I feel like any build with a good UMD check deserves more points off than this.

    I don't really know what I'm wanting by pointing this out. Is this something we can ease up on in future competitions? Is this something that should be looked at insofar as judging criteria? Is there a good counterpoint as to why these methods should be penalized?
    Please let me answer this.

    As a matter of fact, D&D optimizers across the world had tried hard to optimize classes and PrC all around (and bragged about it via forums). So, much of the classics ways of optimization would not be original. It is a problem, indeed. But this is an intellectual problem you can overcome with other "ingredients".
    If you put up an astonishing, original build which incidentally has reach+trip, that would be rated quite good in originality nevertheless.

    Please also mind that your entry would be eventually hit in just one out of four parameters: originality. Let me talk personally. In Iron Chef IV, I've submitted a spiked chain tripper (not original), knowing that it wouldn't be original.
    On the other hand, in Iron Chef V, I've posted a strongly original build, knowing that elegance, instead, would be the weak point and maybe power would be unvaluable.
    Last entry, Iron Chef VI, I've put in a powerful, very powerful build, expecting a bloodening in elegance (which happened ).

    ...all to say that you can't make a omelet without killing a few people, or, in other words, noone since now has hitten a 5 in all parameters and you should maybe drop a parameter to follow a good idea.

    ...except, maybe, if you're Akal Saris

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingus View Post
    If you put up an astonishing, original build which incidentally has reach+trip, that would be rated quite good in originality nevertheless.
    To elaborate, I don't mind it getting counted down a bit, but it always feels like such melee tricks get a -2 originality in addition to whatever other penalty they had in mind for the build -- but I'm likely taking it way out of proportion. I just feel like it's worth noting that it gets judged harshly, but I don't see any penalties for the very large multitude of entries across all past tournaments which have Craven or rely on UMD to be effective.

    But I should probably shut my mouth, I keep getting cold feats and don't join up.

    you can't make a omelet without killing a few people
    I definitely lol'd.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-07-05 at 10:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    To elaborate, I don't mind it getting counted down a bit, but it always feels like such melee tricks get a -2 originality in addition to whatever other penalty they had in mind for the build -- but I'm likely taking it way out of proportion. I just feel like it's worth noting that it gets judged harshly, but I don't see any penalties for the very large multitude of entries across all past tournaments which have Craven or rely on UMD to be effective.

    But I should probably shut my mouth, I keep getting cold feats and don't join up.
    The difference you're noting is as follows:

    -Some builds do nothing BUT be a chain tripper. This is unoriginal.
    -Other builds use UMD as their main combat tactic, but do like a dozen other creative things aside.

    Now, if there was a build that just optimized UMD out the wazoo and didn't DO anything else, ok, I'd mark that bitch down in a heart beat, since we've all seen it before. Similarly, when a chain tripper who does lots of other things shows up, I don't mark it down.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    @Pechvarry: Just to answer you... If you have a UMD trick alone on which the build counts for power, in my opinion you're unoriginal.
    But yes, it is difficult, damn difficult to keep your entry effective, original and powerful, granted that secret ingredients are usually picked to be nothing of this (except, maybe, originals )

    If you take it as a challenge, however, you'll have a lot of fun (and since you don't win money [or someone is definitely cheating me ], I guess this is the purpose) and you'll improve.
    If you go past, you'll see that early IC were poorer than recents, at least for fluff and with no offense for partecipants. Everyone is improved doing it, so you can too.

    And, by the way, for lol thaks Neil Gaiman (the joke was unoriginal too )

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Similarly, when a chain tripper who does lots of other things shows up, I don't mark it down.
    I believe the thing is an optimized chain tripper does not actually need to pull different tricks. If he has mobility and senses covered, he just needs to trip the heck out of people (that's the basis of the much praised Horizon Tripper). Maybe you could list a back-up combat style, but any character can pick up a bow and fight anyway.
    The same "problem" affects chargers and I don't see they getting lower scores, btw.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I believe the thing is an optimized chain tripper does not actually need to pull different tricks. If he has mobility and senses covered, he just needs to trip the heck out of people (that's the basis of the much praised Horizon Tripper). Maybe you could list a back-up combat style, but any character can pick up a bow and fight anyway.
    The same "problem" affects chargers and I don't see they getting lower scores, btw.
    Because its definitionally not original. You're not indicating any mechanical innovation, and originality is a stated judging criteria. What originality would such a build be demonstrating?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I believe the thing is an optimized chain tripper does not actually need to pull different tricks. If he has mobility and senses covered, he just needs to trip the heck out of people (that's the basis of the much praised Horizon Tripper). Maybe you could list a back-up combat style, but any character can pick up a bow and fight anyway.
    The same "problem" affects chargers and I don't see they getting lower scores, btw.
    I've not scored chain trippers badly on power ever. I HAVE scored them low on originality.

    For reference, here, have a definition of originality:
    "Originality is the aspect of created or invented works by as being new or novel, and thus can be distinguished from reproductions, clones, forgeries, or derivative works."

    A chain tripper is not new or novel. See my issue with it yet? Same thing with a pure Craven sneak attacker who does nothing else, or a supercharger who does nothing else, or a Giamonk who does nothing else. I score them ALL low on Originality.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    What the heck am I supposed to do about Concentration? At first I thought it worked like the undead: Charisma for Concentration. But it doesn't. So what? Do I automatically fail Concentration checks or does it just work as if my Constitution was set to 10?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajadea View Post
    What the heck am I supposed to do about Concentration? At first I thought it worked like the undead: Charisma for Concentration. But it doesn't. So what? Do I automatically fail Concentration checks or does it just work as if my Constitution was set to 10?
    You have no Con score. As per the rules for having a non-ability, the modifier is always considered +0.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    You have no Con score. As per the rules for having a non-ability, the modifier is always considered +0.
    Unless you also have another ability that "moves" the modifier to a different ability score. Incorporeal, for example, "moves" a couple things from Constitution to a different ability score.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Unless you also have another ability that "moves" the modifier to a different ability score. Incorporeal, for example, "moves" a couple things from Constitution to a different ability score.
    An Incorporeal GSA makes me very confused...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I forget - according to the Savage Species type pyramid, which takes precedence, undead or construct?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    An Incorporeal GSA makes me very confused...
    Yep, I'm hoping somebody tries it so I can see how it works out.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I forget - according to the Savage Species type pyramid, which takes precedence, undead or construct?
    According to the sourcebook, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Type Pyramid
    Construct, Outsider, Undead: These three types resideat the top of the pyramid. Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a templete, it cannot become something else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one.
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    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    Because its definitionally not original. You're not indicating any mechanical innovation, and originality is a stated judging criteria. What originality would such a build be demonstrating?
    Like the previous poster mentioned, that's akin as taking points from a Wizard build that uses Fly and Haste as core spells.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Wait, so a Necropolitan GSA wouldn't become a construct?

    Craaazy.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Unless you also have another ability that "moves" the modifier to a different ability score. Incorporeal, for example, "moves" a couple things from Constitution to a different ability score.
    I assumed you didn't have any such thing. If you do, well, alright then, that's a much more complex story.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Like the previous poster mentioned, that's akin as taking points from a Wizard build that uses Fly and Haste as core spells.
    Having fly and haste I would disagree on. If they, however, presented something close to a batman wizard (either in play-style or spell selection), I would score down for that too. As point of fact, I scored down a gish last round because they were using a concept that has been very well covered by past CharOp and not providing any particular innovation for the concept.

    Moreover, I would question how exactly you would see originality functioning as a category. Are you seriously suggesting that we award a 5 to a build that is, mechanically, almost indistinguishable from a standard charger other than the PRC?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Now, if there was a build that just optimized UMD out the wazoo and didn't DO anything else, ok, I'd mark that bitch down in a heart beat, since we've all seen it before. Similarly, when a chain tripper who does lots of other things shows up, I don't mark it down.
    And at this, I'm quite satisfied. As long as the build is being de-pointed because it doesn't seem to do anything but chain trip, as opposed to it being a build that just so happens to trip instead of full attack + extra dice of damage along with the real meat of the build (for instance, if you're adding 3 stats to STR checks anyway, you're silly not abuse it as often as possible), I'm totally happy.

    Btw, I was totally happy with the last round's judging. I'm finding it very fascinating to see, over the course of many competitions, how the builds and the scoring have developed in such a way that common themes and methods emerge. For instance, block-of-text w/out story doesn't get a lot in originality. And, to touch on what Ingus said before, it's cool to see how a lot of builds are obviously willing to take hits in certain areas to improve the overall. Perfect example: Seera (or so I think the build was named) in the last competition. Amazingly brilliant artificer/MoM, mine eyes were boggled. Who DIDN'T expect that build to lose points in elegance?

    Man, I should do this more often. Me discussing the meta-competition has made it hard to discuss potential GSA builds. :P

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Like the previous poster mentioned, that's akin as taking points from a Wizard build that uses Fly and Haste as core spells.
    In 3.5 is difficult to abuse Haste, but a Fly core caster/escapist would be all except original (I saw one at my very first d&d game, so...). Moreover, if someone does it, I suppose it will hit even a poorer score in originality: since as a spellcaster you have millions of options, one would be less indulgent if you did something so uninventive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post

    Btw, I was totally happy with the last round's judging. I'm finding it very fascinating to see, over the course of many competitions, how the builds and the scoring have developed in such a way that common themes and methods emerge.

    As a suggestion to anybody: links to previous competitions are not there to let you see how cool usual competitors are, but to get inspiration and an overall look on how something is judged (overall: be warned that any judge has his own taste and the right to have it ).

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    speaking of versatitility, how does that affect scoring?

    One trick may cause a build to lose points, but a build that can use many different tricks might do well?

    To give an example, a dimplomacer will score badly. A chain tripper will score badly. A swiftblade gish will score badly. A character that can do all 3 score scores well?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    speaking of versatitility, how does that affect scoring?

    One trick may cause a build to lose points, but a build that can use many different tricks might do well?

    To give an example, a dimplomacer will score badly. A chain tripper will score badly. A swiftblade gish will score badly. A character that can do all 3 score scores well?
    I don't know about current judges, but I know if I saw Diplomancer tactics, regardless of other tricks the character might have, I'd score you down on Elegance due to 'Use of Known Cheese'.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    What is known cheese?

    Rules breaking stuff that is in core, or does it include everying in the completes as well?

    Wish loops would be bad I guess. Chain Summoning. Diplomancy. Shadow spawning. Nightstick DMM abuse. I'm sure these is plenty of other stuff I don't know about. At what point does optimization become cheese?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    What is known cheese?

    Rules breaking stuff that is in core, or does it include everying in the completes as well?

    Wish loops would be bad I guess. Chain Summoning. Diplomancy. Shadow spawning. Nightstick DMM abuse. I'm sure these is plenty of other stuff I don't know about. At what point does optimization become cheese?
    When it so very clearly breaks RAI. Chain Gating is cheese, since you get your own personal army. Diplomancy is cheese because having a snarling dragon hand over his treasure horde after a few words and a winning smile should not be how DCs work. Pun-Pun is cheese because... if I have to explain that one, I'll become very sad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Okay. I just thought I would ask. RAI differs from person to person though. Only the author knows what they intended. Readers interpret what they intended. That interpretation can vary. I am not trying to start a RAI/RAW debate though.

    I am looking forward to see the end results of the competition. I hope my build is not too cheesey for the tastes of the judges.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    I am looking forward to see the end results of the competition. I hope my build is not too cheesey for the tastes of the judges.
    I rather hope to intoxicate them...

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    How will buying off an ECL affect scoring? I know UA is allowed, but it seems cartain aspects will affect elegance, and I don't wanna do such, but I do want to get a 20-Level Progression :)
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by okpokalypse View Post
    How will buying off an ECL affect scoring? I know UA is allowed, but it seems cartain aspects will affect elegance, and I don't wanna do such, but I do want to get a 20-Level Progression :)
    Characters are given 190,000 XP. This is exactly enough to get to level 20. LA buyoff, Chaos Shuffle, Chain Gating, and personal item crafting bring you below this threshold, which helps stop some otherwise very broken things.

    Short answer: LA yes, buyoff no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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