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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Custom? It's a template that can be added to any predator/scavenger/omnivore. The chordevoc or however you spell the bloody thing and halfling seems to meet the prerequisites. Why dock points for that? It looks perfectly legit.
    Because unlike other templates, it is significantly closer to custom work than, say, Saint is. The Lycanthropic templates require that you apply them to a critter, then to your character, causing all manner of possibilities for jackups. Further, Lycanthropic was surely not designed with all the myraid options that now exist in mind, causing lots of room for brokenness. It's a template that really is better off avoided, IMO.

    Also, because I don't specific precisely what costs what, it's quite possible I just gave a minor deduction for it (which is exactly what I did) and didn't tank the score cause of it.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Byerek Runeweaver
    Power: 4. power attack and a gish is a proven strategy. no exception here.
    Originality: 3. I'd give you a 2 normally because everybody has made a guy like this, but the Suel arcanamach was not what I expected in the first gish build.
    Elegance: 2. you used more than 10 books I believe. one so you could trade ride for tumble, which seemed hugely unneccessary, unlike something like bardic knack or riparte. your backstory wasn't very thrilling to me either, though I like to think that I have high standards in that department.
    Use of Green Star Adept: 1. this build would have been way better without it. other than an unnatural love of really hard rocks, this character had little flavorwise to do with it.

    Starry-Eyes
    Power: 3.5- 2 normal, 5 abberation campaign. if you're a beholder and you have this crazy little halfling chasing you down, you might have to overcome your paranoia and hire a dragon or two to take her out. luckily, you wont need a huge one.
    Originality: 4.5. this was the most unique I think. the templates really made the flavor work, and the character was just such a unique hero. I love the story it had also. add 3 more pages and I'll buy the novel.
    Elegance: 2. custom template is pretty bad. I have to nerf you here. you also used 7 sources. I love the story, but there was enough wrong in the elegance spot for me that I can't let this go with more than a 2, especially after giving Byrek a 1 for far less. EDIT: you're right, it's not a flaw. a trait is fine by me.
    Use of Green Star Adept: 4. you did well here. it fit in every way.

    Dr. Julius Mordenstein
    Power: 3.5. he's good, but if he loses the initiative to Team Cleric...
    Originality: 4. I was not expecting a zombie construct with a running inflict combo.
    Elegance: 5. 3 classes, a cool story, and no rules blowing. no book list, but you definitely used 3 out of core, probably like 5. if someone can get a list on the books this guy used I'd appreciate. EDIT: upon hearing I pushed him to first with this, can you maybe PM the book list to a nonjudge (any) and have him post it?
    Use of Green Star Adept: 2. 8 levels. you used them relatively well I think. he did flavorally seem more dead than construct.

    Kaurrek the Eternal
    Power: 3.75. power attack. duskblade. looks a little weaker than Byrek to me.
    Originality: 2. nothing that really stuck out to me.
    Elegance: 2. you dipped fighter.
    Use of Green Star Adept: 3. good fit. little was really used to full potential though.

    Kao Lei
    Power: 3.5. same idea as the duskblade guys, the bard is a nice change.
    Originality: 3. you put a lot of time into this one, and it shows, especially with the 2 variants.
    Elegance: 2. more dipping. I like the story though. it's really I AM THE CHOSEN ONE!!!!!!!
    Use of Green Star Adept: 3.75. I liked how you put it in.

    Glorgen
    Power: 3.75. a combat warlock focused on Eldritch Glaive. very popular, GSA did well with it.
    Originality: 3. really original with the bearded fey, otherwise standard ideas- well built just standard.
    Elegance: 4.5. 3 classes. story had potential, needed some more words I think.
    Use of Green Star Adept: 3. you toughened up your glaive dwarf a tad and turned him into a flying fortress. I can dig it.

    Wu
    Power: 5. a wizard will solve you. hopefully.
    Originality: 4. wu jen is always a new pathway. really interesting story.
    Elegance: 2.5. through a quick scan, at least 6 non core books. only 3 classes, which makes me happier.
    Use of Green Star Adept: 2.5. seemed more of a limited summoner, with a little less squish. could have done better with some more spell levels.

    Nicolo
    Power: 1.5. so many better poisoners available, I'm a fan of playing a straight assassin myself.
    Originality: 5. though he isn't really powerful, a hexblade poisoner who poisons you with a body slam is totally awesome and gets my props.
    Elegance: 2. 8-9 books. 4 classes is fine... more than my preference, but if that's how you make it work, that's how you make it work. I just wish you pulled it down to 5 books. Nico does make total sense with everything though. always a plus.
    Use of Green Star Adept: 5. your main focus was on a class ability. even if it's not totally optimal, you bit the bullet, went for it, and included my favorite Eagles song. so I think you're the only one to get 2 5's from me.

    done!
    Last edited by the humanity; 2010-07-13 at 02:10 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Thing is... isn't wizard and archivist the same pretty much? Unless you start at 1st level in the game it's likely you'll have to have the DM's permission to add most of your spell/prayer book. Doesn't seem quite right to dock it.
    Wizards only get spells on their list, Archivists have it listed on their class features that they can mess stuff up. To get stuff out of Wu Jen's spell list via spell research seems cheesy for me and I wouldn't allow it as a DM, even though DMG has a paragraph saying 'it could be done'.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    There really should be more than there are. I mean, plenty of mountain fey out there.
    Must be the beards. Fey like smooth faces, I hear!
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-10 at 08:26 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Further, Lycanthropic was surely not designed with all the myraid options that now exist in mind, causing lots of room for brokenness. It's a template that really is better off avoided, IMO.
    *shrugs*

    Looks like they could have applied the template to the Eagle instead and it'd have worked out about the same, and its in the MM 3.5.

    Must be the beards. Fey like smooth faces, I hear!
    Bah, so many oddball fey, they shouldn't be picky.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-10 at 08:37 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    *shrugs*

    Looks like they could have applied the template to the Eagle instead and it'd have worked out about the same, and its in the MM 3.5.
    It's more a matter of personal distaste and general principle. I'm firmly of the opinion that lycanthropy should not be a template, but a class, of which there are several I've seen that work very well for representing a "beastman" or some such concept.

    Still, like I said, I didn't really do much more than a minor nick (under .5 of a point), so I feel fine about disliking it.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Though the Humanity's is incomplete, here is the current total:

    #1. Little Starry Eyes - 3.5/3.5/3.5 (3.5)
    #2. Dr. Julius - 3.375/3.375/3.625 (3.4583)
    #3. Xiajing Wu - 3.75/3 (3.375)
    #4. Nicolo Egidi - 3/3.625 (3.3125)
    #5. Kao Lei - 3.125/3.625/3.0625 (3.2708)
    #6. Glorgen - 2.875/3.125/3.5625 (3.1875)
    #7. Byerek Runeweaver - 3/3.125/2.5 (2.875)
    #8. Stardream - 2.75/2.875/2.687 (2.7706)

    Rough panel, looks like 3.75 is the highest total award so far, and the next judge gave the same entry one of the lowest.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    It's more a matter of personal distaste and general principle. I'm firmly of the opinion that lycanthropy should not be a template, but a class, of which there are several I've seen that work very well for representing a "beastman" or some such concept.
    I can understand that, it was the 'custom' bit that made me blink *growls at the humanity to*. Every use of that template by this definition would be custom, which means it's meant to be so.

    I use it all the time in my Monster Advancement thread and it's always been one of my favorite templates, so ragging on it will get me going

    he's good, but if he loses the initiative to Team Cleric...
    Then what they gonna do, he's a construct by the end...
    Oh, wait, 8th level. Yeah, think he would have done best to keep going with it.

    and a flaw.
    Looks like its a Trait actually, which is very different than a Flaw.

    you used more than 10 books I believe.
    Do you judges tend to rate low on multiple sources? I can understand if they were essential to the build, but I know I myself always scour a dozen or three books to pick out the perfect stuff to fit the fluff. Most of the time it has nothing to do with the power.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-11 at 01:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Dr. Julius is leading? Wow, I did not expect that.

    On a sidenote, how about Ardent Dilettante (Planar Handbook) for the next Iron Chef? Talk about diverse builds!
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-10 at 08:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Do you judges tend to rate low on multiple sources? I can understand if they were essential to the build, but I know I myself always scour a dozen or three books to pick out the perfect stuff to fit the fluff. Most of the time it has nothing to do with the power.
    I was wondering about this. If I knew I was gonna get hit SO freakin hard for this, I could have dialed it back to like, 4 books, but one of the main points of optimization is to creatively combine a bunch of little things from multiple sources in a way that is stronger than the sum of the parts.

    I'm wondering if elegance was mistaken for simplicity. Duskblade20 is a simple gish. Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8 is an elegant gish. Its classes flow together in a streamlined fasion and it achieves strength that the simple the Duskblade can't compete with. Doesn't mean that the Duskblade is bad, just simple. This is an OPTIMIZATION exercise right?
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-07-10 at 09:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Dr. Julius is leading? Wow, I did not expect that.
    Yup, that 5 on Elegance from Humanity pushed him from 3rd to 1st.

    On a sidenote, how about Ardent Dilettante (Planar Handbook) for the next Iron Chef? Talk about diverse builds!
    Y'know, that's so obscure I've never read it?

    If I knew I was gonna get hit SO freakin hard for this, I could have dialed it back to like, 4 books
    You got that right.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Concerning books, no, I don't take that into account. I don't care, as long as you don't use 2nd/3rd party material, such as Dragon Magazine, Dragonlance, AEG, Green Ronin, etc. Hell, you can use Dragon Compendium if you'd like (and I'd be SO HAPPY if someone did).

    To use the Iron Chef analogy, sometimes, an ingredient with a very distinctive taste comes from some backwater no one's ever heard of. Doesn't make it taste worse.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2010-07-10 at 09:12 PM.

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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Tome of battle does feature in one of the builds. I wish it was mine.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    To use the Iron Chef analogy, sometimes, an ingredient with a very distinctive taste comes from some backwater no one's ever heard of. Doesn't make it taste worse.
    This. Totally agree with Arguskos here. Some judges take points from just using books they don't like... I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Y'know, that's so obscure I've never read it?
    Oh, it's very interesting. And if you ever played Planescape: Torment, you'll love it even more!
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-10 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    I was wondering about this. If I knew I was gonna get hit SO freakin hard for this, I could have dialed it back to like, 4 books, but one of the main points of optimization is to creatively combine a bunch of little things from multiple sources in a way that is stronger than the sum of the parts.

    I'm wondering if elegance was mistaken for simplicity. Duskblade20 is a simple gish. Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8 is an elegant gish. Its classes flow together in a streamlined fasion and it achieves strength that the simple the Duskblade can't compete with. Doesn't mean that the Duskblade is bad, just simple. This is an OPTIMIZATION exercise right?
    Elegance is the most nebulous and changing category, as my questions in the last contest might indicate. Elegance can appear to be directly at odds with Originality, depending on which contest and which judges one observes. This is in NO WAY meant as a disparagement against any of those who have volunteered to judge, past or present.

    DISCLAIMER: HYPERBOLE FOR EMPHASIS
    It can sometimes seem as if Stalwart Sorcerer 10/GSA 10 might be a particular judge's idea of a 5 for Elegance, while getting a 1 for Originality from one or more judge - possibly even the one(s) who would rate it a 5 on Elegance. Conversely, Evoker 3/Master Specialist 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2/Mindbender 1/Sandshaper 1/GSA 9 would, possibly, get a 1 on Elegance even if it managed a 4 or 5 on Power and a 3 or 4 on originality.

    It's a very difficult balancing act, and something of a guessing game on the part of the contestants.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I for one have no problem with the comments and scores that judges make. They are entitled to their opinion, just as I am. Constructive criticism can be a great form of feedback. I am not a special snowflake.

    Elegance is subjective, as are many of the categories. The point of having so many judges is to gain an 'average' value from the opinions of many. It may not be perfect, but it prevents one judgement from determining the competion. It presents a better picture of the functionality of a build as a whole IMHO.

    I for one, appreciate their time and effort. This is not a suck-up, I doubt you know my entry. Keep up the good work.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Oh, it's very interesting. And if you ever played Planescape: Torment, you'll love it even more!
    Huh, that is a fascinating PrC. It'd be especially good for this contest as it's so utterly open to varying builds. Its capstone kind of sucks, but very flavorful.

    I very much encourage it for a future contest.

    I for one have no problem with the comments and scores that judges make. They are entitled to their opinion, just as I am. Constructive criticism can be a great form of feedback. I am not a special snowflake.
    Me neither, just a very pointy one. I'll debate criticism, but don't take offense at it. 99% of the time anyways. There are a few things I've made where individuals can see nothing good about it and border on trolling.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-10 at 09:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I haven't gotten a chance to give a good look at the builds yet, but skimming looks impressive so far. I should be able to sit down in score Monday and/or Tuesday, and thus should my scores posted Wednesday at the latest.

    Thanks you to all the contestants for completing.
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    4 more days for results =
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-11 at 01:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    It's hard to really say the good doctor is really in 1st place when there's basically a 5-way tie at 3.39ish that could swing in any direction based on the next few judges.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient scores seem to have averaged between 2 and 3, which suggests to me that the secret ingredient is largely Useless
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Yea, it was really hard to fit GSA in in a way that wouldn't be better filled by...ANYTHING else, and the 10th level actually makes your character WORSE rather than better. If you take the 10th level, you lose on power, if you don't, most of the judges so far have been brutal on use-of.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    I like the flavor of Green Star Adept. It just is horrible from a mechanical viewpoint. Use of the Secret Ingrediant is difficult. I must have run through three different builds, including one that I calculated to 15th level and thought it was a really good build before I realized I forgot to add any levels of GSA. Yeah. Secret Ingrediant is Useless. Or at the very least, use-impaired.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Eh, except that several builds here have shown it has some usefulness. Starry Eyes managed to use it well. Byerek, Kao Lei, and Nicolo also all used it cleverly and to what strengths it has.

    It's narrow, not useless. There's a difference IMO.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Speaking of narrow, updated with Humanity's votes for a couple place changes.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-11 at 01:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by the humanity View Post
    EDIT: upon hearing I pushed him to first with this, can you maybe PM the book list to a nonjudge (any) and have him post it?
    Had a family medical emergency so sitting up for awhile and thought I might look this stuff up for you to kill some time.

    Complete Arcane
    Green Star Adept PrC

    Drow of the Underdark
    Imperious Command feat

    Heroes of Horror
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    Libris Mortis
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    Player's Guide to Eberron
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    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-11 at 02:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Ya missed something there Mr Tribble. GSA is in Complete Arcane, not CWarrior.

    Its ok...*pats*
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Bloody Hades...

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    My entry is being beaten by a furry little halfling. Oh well, it happens to the best of them...Sauron for example.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Had a family medical emergency so sitting up for awhile and thought I might look this stuff up for you to kill some time.
    Stuff from two different settings AND A NETBOOK?!
    Heck, can I change my elegance score for him?


    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Use of the Secret Ingredient scores seem to have averaged between 2 and 3, which suggests to me that the secret ingredient is largely Useless
    Well, in a 1 to 5 scale, 2 or 3 should be the average score anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Eh, except that several builds here have shown it has some usefulness. Starry Eyes managed to use it well. Byerek, Kao Lei, and Nicolo also all used it cleverly and to what strengths it has.

    It's narrow, not useless. There's a difference IMO.
    Xiajing also uses it well, avoiding ability damage from corrupt spells.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-11 at 10:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Well, in a 1 to 5 scale, 2 or 3 should be the average score anyway.
    Fair enough viewpoint, but a counterpoint could be that, when none of the builds get even a 4 on 'Use of Secret Ingredient', it reads as if a better use was perceived and/or expected by the judges. Even if a given PrC sucks, it should be possible to get maximal use from it, relative to its merits. If it's not actually possible to get a 5 in a given category, that could be seen as indicating a problem with the scale.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Fair enough viewpoint, but a counterpoint could be that, when none of the builds get even a 4 on 'Use of Secret Ingredient', it reads as if a better use was perceived and/or expected by the judges. Even if a given PrC sucks, it should be possible to get maximal use from it, relative to its merits. If it's not actually possible to get a 5 in a given category, that could be seen as indicating a problem with the scale.
    Agreed. I expected more use of GSA's abilities, specially since I was working with a build of my own for this earlier.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

    It turns out that nobody did the build I was thinking about.

    In case you're curious, my idea was to skip the obvious Duskblade etc. and go with a straight caster. I was thinking of a human Conjurer 6/Ruathar 1/Green Star Adept 10/Conjurer +2.

    The character's schtick was supposed to be: "I cast Cloudkill centered on myself!!!1!"

    The character was supposed to live in the Underdark with the sufferance of the Drow (Ruathar isn't picky about the subtype of elf, right?) where her darkvision would give her a potential advantage and specialize in various cloud spells she herself and her potential undead/construct minions were immune to on the idea that indiscriminate effects tend to be stronger. She would also use Listening Lorecall when needed and invest in the Listen skill so she wouldn't get blinded by her own Solid Fogs and the like.

    When she was going to have reached level 10 of Green Star Adept she would have largely lied down for a while and done spell research in new cloud spells, which is why I docked her one level of XP. Meanwhile she would have aged into Venerable or past that and gained a free +3 to all mental stats.

    I was going to call her punnily Stargyria. (Google argyria if you don't get it.)

    Since new spells are heavily DM-dependant, I was only going to suggest general ideas for spells, like
    - Stargyria's Greater Cloudkill
    - Stargyria's Obedient Poison Cloud (moves as directed, hits a stat like Int)
    - Stargyria's Energy Drain Cloud
    - Stargyria's Zone of Calm (counter to those pesky winds that disperse clouds)

    Those clouds could be layered upon each other, forcing people trying to melee her save against several things per round while her Green Star Adept defenses enable her to survive melee better than the typical wizard. Her save DCs should be level-appropriate too.

    Her weakness would have been that she could only cast up to seventh level spells due to the lost caster levels and the hit to dexterity would have made her avoid rays. On the other hand, she would have been likely to hit with melee touch attacks for what's that worth. But well, at least she would have taken good use of Green Star Adept and perhaps been elegant too.

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