Do the Game Rules Replace Physics, or Are They Just a Way to Adjudicate Actions

[Mike_G]

How do you play it when the RAW is clearly at odds with reality?

Not just the silly "heal by drowning, dead doesn't mean you can't act, the Sun is too far away to spot" stuff, but things like falling.

How do you address a player who has his character leap off a ten story building because he knows it's only going to be 35-40 damage, and he has 90 HP? Beating a guy for 500 HP of subdual so you know he'll be unconscious for days and you can escape?

Do you allow this kind of obvious metagame decision, or do you overrule it, like pointing out that a hundred foot fall will kill/cripple you?

[Vitruviansquid]

Imo, the DM is there to mediate between reality and RAW and he does this by asking "is it appropriate to the story that...?"

[Zovc]

inb4 Commoner Railgun.

Sorry, I had to.

I too think it comes down to the DM to decide what happens.

[KillianHawkeye]

I heard a story about a guy who jumped out of a plane, his parachute didn't open and he hit the ground, but somehow miraculously he was barely hurt.

[Raistlin1040]

If it's the difference between jumping off a 10 story building and getting hit with fireballs from a dozen wizards, you can bet I'm going for the fall. I'd probably die. If I survived, I'd consider myself very lucky, but that doesn't mean I'd make a habit out of jumping off buildings.

Make your players be reasonable with it. If they have a legitimate reason behind their actions, let them do it and deal with the consequences. If the choice is between fighting a pair of orcs and jumping off a building, um, unless they're level 1 Commoners, they can probably handle the orcs. There is no reason for them to jump.

[Lapak]

I heard a story about a guy who jumped out of a plane, his parachute didn't open and he hit the ground, but somehow miraculously he was barely hurt.

The record for surviving a fall without a parachute is ~33,000 feet; the record for surviving and walking away essentially unhurt is ~11,000 feet. So yeah, it's possible.

In terms of the OP, remember two things: first, a character with 90 HP is essentially superhuman, and it's not all 'meat;' hit points include luck and divine favor and skill according to the rules. So if this heroic figure jumps off a building and survives, then he skidded off a window ledge halfway down and the ground was softer where he hit and he rolled just right; very action-hero to survive such a fall.

Second, remember that getting hit for 50 involves a roll for massive damage. While it's not probable on 10d6, it's most definitely possible, and the player IS taking his character's life in his hands by jumping.

[Mike_G]

To clarify my position on falling, if the PC is thrown off a tower by a Swordsage, or Bullrushed off or whatever, I'll roll the 10d6, apply the damage, and use some kind of narrative plot armor explanation. You landed in something soft, you hit an awning on the way down, something.

And, yeah, there are a handful of anecdotes of people surviving high falls.

I just want to know how you rule on the character saying "Meh. Screw it. It's only 10d6."

I'd point out that, while yes, he's a badass, your character does not know how many HP he has, and is not confident he will survive a hundred foot fall.

I just wanted an idea of how the forum population skews on this.

[Snake-Aes]

Do you allow this kind of obvious metagame decision, or do you overrule it, like pointing out that a hundred foot fall will kill/cripple you?

If you want your game to be deadlier, sure go with it. But this is a game of epic proportions. Anything with more than 3 or 4 levels already surpasses what humans are physically capable of doing(casters do that from level 1). If your guy can enter a building on fire because "it's just 1d6/round", then falling is already something that doesn't really hurt to be survivable.

[Prime32]

I'd point out that, while yes, he's a badass, your character does not know how many HP he has, and is not confident he will survive a hundred foot fall.

I don't see how he needs to know the exact number to realise that he's too crazy-tough for it to kill him.

[KillianHawkeye]

How about you don't tell them the exact distance? It's not like they have a 100 foot measuring tape. Just say that it's "a really, really, (seriously) REALLY far way down." In other words, describe the height instead of just telling them how high they are. Although, if it's really the top of a building then I guess they'll still know the approximate height.

EDIT: You can always start putting spikes at ground level if this is really a problem.

[Prime32]

How about you don't tell them the exact distance? It's not like they have a 100 foot measuring tape. Just say that it's "a really, really, (seriously) REALLY far way down." In other words, describe the height instead of just telling them how high they are. Although, if it's really the top of a building then I guess they'll still know the approximate height.

There's a cap on falling damage of 20d6 due to terminal velocity. Most 20th-level characters can easily survive that provided they're not too injured already.

Bear in mind that a 7th-level character is equivalent to the greatest humans who ever lived, guys who break Olympic records and do crazy stuff on Youtube, and that every two levels added on is a doubling of power. Even mid-level fighters regularly break the laws of physics.

[KillianHawkeye]

There's a cap on falling damage of 20d6 due to terminal velocity. Most 20th-level characters can easily survive that provided they're not too injured already.

And is that a problem? If so, see my edit about spikes above.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The issue with DND is that characters stop being realistic past level 6. By level 7, anyone with a decent ability score (+3 modifier) and max ranks in something like, say jump, is beating all Olympic records out there. Yeah, it might come up that a 6th level character could soak that 10d6 falling damage, but there have been some cases of people surviving terminal velocity.

Admittedly, the physics behind the DND rules aren't entirely accurate, much in the same way that Newtonian physics isn't entirely accurate when dealing with objects on a relativistic scale like electrons, it does an acceptable level of moderation for "normal human" levels. Once characters hit 7th level, they've transcended the mundane and become something more, so they should expect to fall some 500 ft. and just brush themselves off on impact.

[mucat]

I'm with the OP here. If a character accidentally falls from a great height, I'll apply normal D&D rules...and if the character survives, I'll make up a reason, and give a dramatic description of careening off outcroppings on the wy down, clawing at loose roots, and finally reaching bottom, battered but alive.

But if a character simply steps off a building, because the rules won't kill him? Now he's not acting like a real person anymore. (Unless the situation is truly desperate. I mean, people jump out of tall buildings when they can't escape a fire...but only because they would rather die from the fall than be burned alive.)

And acting like your character is an assemblage of numbers, rather than a plausible person in a story, adds nothing to the game. The first time it happens, I would let the character survive...but make a point of not rolling any dice, just describing an outcome that left him badly hurt but not dead. And I would explain to the players that this was their only warning. When things happen despite their best efforts, physics will bend to game rules to keep them alive. But when they start acting as if their characters know it's a game, physics will have its revenge.

[Snake-Aes]

I'm with the OP here. If a character accidentally falls from a great height, I'll apply normal D&D rules...and if the character survives, I'll make up a reason, and give a dramatic description of careening off outcroppings on the wy down, clawing at loose roots, and finally reaching bottom, battered but alive.

Hit points are an abstraction oddity. We sure can say that he survived because he outlucked gravity.

[Prime32]

But if a character simply steps off a building, because the rules won't kill him? Now he's not acting like a real person anymore. (Unless the situation is truly desperate. I mean, people jump out of tall buildings when they can't escape a fire...but only because they would rather die from the fall than be burned alive.)

And acting like your character is an assemblage of numbers, rather than a plausible person in a story, adds nothing to the game. The first time it happens, I would let the character survive...but make a point of not rolling any dice, just describing an outcome that left him badly hurt but not dead. And I would explain to the players that this was their only warning. When things happen despite their best efforts, physics will bend to game rules to keep them alive. But when they start acting as if their characters know it's a game, physics will have its revenge.

Again, you don't have to know that you're in a game to know that you're The Terminator. Many PCs are significantly tougher than The Terminator. If you can survive being stabbed in the face with Excalibur while poisoned and on fire, why would you be scared of falling?

[olentu]

I'm with the OP here. If a character accidentally falls from a great height, I'll apply normal D&D rules...and if the character survives, I'll make up a reason, and give a dramatic description of careening off outcroppings on the wy down, clawing at loose roots, and finally reaching bottom, battered but alive.

But if a character simply steps off a building, because the rules won't kill him? Now he's not acting like a real person anymore. (Unless the situation is truly desperate. I mean, people jump out of tall buildings when they can't escape a fire...but only because they would rather die from the fall than be burned alive.)

And acting like your character is an assemblage of numbers, rather than a plausible person in a story, adds nothing to the game. The first time it happens, I would let the character survive...but make a point of not rolling any dice, just describing an outcome that left him badly hurt but not dead. And I would explain to the players that this was their only warning. When things happen despite their best efforts, physics will bend to game rules to keep them alive. But when they start acting as if their characters know it's a game, physics will have its revenge.

I was not aware that adventurers generally act like real people. I mean what real person is going to do things like successfully cast spells or swim in lava and not suffer lasting harm.

[Lapak]

How about you don't tell them the exact distance? It's not like they have a 100 foot measuring tape. Just say that it's "a really, really, (seriously) REALLY far way down." In other words, describe the height instead of just telling them how high they are. Although, if it's really the top of a building then I guess they'll still know the approximate height.

I stand by what I said earlier, this is also an excellent answer. Unless they have a reason to be able to instantly figure out how high they are, there's no reason that they should know whether it's 100 feet or 150.

[Mike_G]

See, I don't have a problem with the characters being tough and surviving stuff. It's the contempt for danger, because they know the rules.

Indian Jones is a badass. He survives stuff he just shouldn't. Ditto for Conan the Barbarian, Dirty Harry, etc. But Conan doesn't just leap down from the Tower of The Elephant rather than fight the minions on the way down, because they know they can soak the 20d6. Indy doens't say "Knock yourself out, Fritz. That Luger is only 1d8, with a Crit mod of x2. You can't hit more than tow or three times before I kick your butt."

Luck, divine favor, plot armor, applied phlebotinum, all these work for me if the PC is fighting and takes a ballista bolt, or does the Butch and Sundace leap. It's just that when presented with stuff that should be dangerous, but which they know they can survive by RAW, it breaks the mood.

In our group, regardless of DM, shrugging and stepping off the ledge since "it's only 10d6" will result in at least a broken leg by DM fiat, after "are you sure you want to do that?"

[Morph Bark]

Hit points are an abstraction oddity. We sure can say that he survived because he outlucked gravity.

Just like how wizards learn how to fly by throwing themselves at the ground and missing.

[Mystic Muse]

massive damage.

This is a horrible rule. Melee can easily bring this rule into play with each attack at level 11 if they hit. Casters can bring this into play too if they try.

24 strength (Base 16, +4 from Orc, +2 from items +2 from level up) Plus a collision greatsword. Each attack deals 2d6+17. If each attack hits your opponent has to make a save for massive damage before adding in things from power attack or even rolling.

[olentu]

See, I don't have a problem with the characters being tough and surviving stuff. It's the contempt for danger, because they know the rules.

Indian Jones is a badass. He survives stuff he just shouldn't. Ditto for Conan the Barbarian, Dirty Harry, etc. But Conan doesn't just leap down from the Tower of The Elephant rather than fight the minions on the way down, because they know they can soak the 20d6. Indy doens't say "Knock yourself out, Fritz. That Luger is only 1d8, with a Crit mod of x2. You can't hit more than tow or three times before I kick your butt."

Luck, divine favor, plot armor, applied phlebotinum, all these work for me if the PC is fighting and takes a ballista bolt, or does the Butch and Sundace leap. It's just that when presented with stuff that should be dangerous, but which they know they can survive by RAW, it breaks the mood.

In our group, regardless of DM, shrugging and stepping off the ledge since "it's only 10d6" will result in at least a broken leg by DM fiat, after "are you sure you want to do that?"

Well indiana jones, conan, and so forth are probably not all super high level and so stuff that is dangerous to regular people is probably still dangerous to them.

[Prime32]

See, I don't have a problem with the characters being tough and surviving stuff. It's the contempt for danger, because they know the rules.

Indian Jones is a badass. He survives stuff he just shouldn't. Ditto for Conan the Barbarian, Dirty Harry, etc. But Conan doesn't just leap down from the Tower of The Elephant rather than fight the minions on the way down, because they know they can soak the 20d6. Indy doens't say "Knock yourself out, Fritz. That Luger is only 1d8, with a Crit mod of x2. You can't hit more than tow or three times before I kick your butt."

It depends on how "practical"/detached they are. 20d6 points of damage has got to hurt like crazy (given that 14 damage would kill the average commoner instantly), and few people would submit themselves to that even if there were no lasting effects.

And Indy doesn't count since he's not inhumanly tough (to my knowledge).

[Mystic Muse]

And Indy doesn't count since he's not inhumanly tough (to my knowledge).

Indiana jones and the kingdom of the crystal skull. He'd have to be inhumanly tough to survive the start. However, Indiana jones is a poor comparison to D&D.

[Saph]

I actually don't find that HP damage causes much of a problem. Most players have an instinctive caution about getting hurt, so they're likely to look for alternatives to things like jumping off a building.

More annoying issues in my experience result from the interaction between players and the the gameworld, like abusing the distinction between OOC and IC time (such as players having long, involved discussions when they're supposed to be in the middle of a 6-second combat round).

[Mystic Muse]

I've personally never been a fan of bringing the rules of the real world into D&D. The game is by definition unrealistic. If you want realism you should go for a game where people can't turn bat poop into fireballs with a couple of words and finger gestures.

[Prime32]

More annoying issues in my experience result from the interaction between players and the the gameworld, like abusing the distinction between OOC and IC time (such as players having long, involved discussions when they're supposed to be in the middle of a 6-second combat round).

"Having fought for their lives together on many occasions, our characters know each other so well that they can communicate an idea with so little as a glance."

[Lapak]

This is a horrible rule. Melee can easily bring this rule into play with each attack at level 11 if they hit. Casters can bring this into play too if they try.

24 strength (Base 16, +4 from Orc, +2 from items +2 from level up) Plus a collision greatsword. Each attack deals 2d6+17. If each attack hits your opponent has to make a save for massive damage before adding in things from power attack or even rolling.

Well, first, massive damage requires that it come in a single attack, not multiples in a round. So the attack you describe won't do it even with a full-damage hit. It would take a crit or a multiplier like a charge build or some such.

Second, this is exactly the kind of situation in which using a normally-not-so-hot rule can be a solution instead of a problem; using it as a special case for attacks that can't be avoided or mitigated (like falling damage) might make the PCs respect such hazards more, even if you don't apply the rule in most cases.

[Greenish]

And Indy doesn't count since he's not inhumanly tough (to my knowledge).

Neither are Dirty Harry or even Conan the Barbarian.

D&D is a different genre. High level characters will know that they can walk away after hitting the ground at terminal velocity, because they're inhumanly tough.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, first, massive damage requires that it come in a single attack, not multiples in a round. So the attack you describe won't do it even with a full-damage hit. It would take a crit or a multiplier like a charge build or some such..

Okay, fine. The rule is still stupid and easy to break.