Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

[Lillith]

So I looked around and saw no thread for the Naruto manga, even though there's one for Bleach. Being a Naruto fan myself, I love talking about it but seem to lack friends who also read it. I'm hoping I'm allowed to make a thread that is dedicated to the Naruto MANGA, so not the anime because that's what the Anime thread is for.

THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS ABOUT THE MANGA SO DON'T READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET SPOILED

To start things off, lets look at the recent revelations that Kushina. The Kyuubi has only had two hosts before, both females from the same tribe and both becoming the wife of a Hokage.

Now the sealing technique that is being used to keep the Kyuubi inside his host has a weakness when the host is female. This being the cause of the problems that started 16 years ago, due to Madara's meddling. One would wonder why they didn't pick a male host instead, they don't get pregnant.

[Prime32]

So I looked around and saw no thread for the Naruto manga, even though there's one for Bleach.

Most of the discussion took place in the NarutoITP OOC thread down in Free-Form Roleplaying. BleachITP gets some manga discussion as well.

[Grumman]

One would wonder why they didn't pick a male host instead, they don't get pregnant.

Or why zero out of two female hosts decided, given the risk of unsealing what might be the most powerful creature in the world, that they'd rather not have kids.

Besides that, I get the feeling that Tenten, or at least her parents, are from the Land of Whirlpools. The same goes for that puppet from the Chikamatsu.

[Obrysii]

Or why zero out of two female hosts decided, given the risk of unsealing what might be the most powerful creature in the world, that they'd rather not have kids.

Sometimes, when you love someone, you make stupid mistakes.

And having the Hokage and several others nearby to maintain the seal is generally acceptable - who would have expected a hundred-year old villain to randomly show up with the want to steal the fox?

[Grumman]

Sometimes, when you love someone, you make stupid mistakes.

A stupid mistake of this magnitude makes the hosts and their husbands less likeable. I dare say that most people head over heels in love still wouldn't risk the lives of thousands of people over something as trivial as their desire to have kids.

[Lillith]

Sometimes, when you love someone, you make stupid mistakes.

And having the Hokage and several others nearby to maintain the seal is generally acceptable - who would have expected a hundred-year old villain to randomly show up with the want to steal the fox?

Well they could expect any other villain who wants power and at least try. Seems that the onlyl thing they have to do is make sure the host doesn´t get the chance to reestablish the seal. One could kidnap the host while pregnant for example. Maybe not for the ´current´ host but in the future other Uzumaki women could have been chosen instead.

I do feel bad for Naruto though. He could have had a normal life and be good friends with Sasuke.

[Maximum Zersk]

But they had guards, and were at a discrete location, weren't they? It's just that Madara was able to find them regardless.

[Frozen_Feet]

They did no mistake. The seal's weakness was a secret, location where Naruto's mom was giving birth was a secret, and they had the frellin Hokage guarding her. Madara appearing there, let alone mind-controlling Kyuubi, were rather big unknowns. Considering the caliber of person we're talking about, it's likely any number of additional security measures might have been futile, or were futile, anyway.

As for why they didn't just pick a male... lets take an honest look at the males, shall we? Gaara was crazy... Naruto has bordered on crazy... old Mizukage was rather nuts, too, if I recall right. Not a good track record, eh? Misuna was the best container for the Kyuubi, and most likely, her giving birth was mandatory to have another viable container and to keep the special chakras of Uzumaki clan in circulation. Really, Naruto's heritage might have been the biggest factor in the choice to make him a Jinchuuriki.

[Kato]

I'd also side with the 'acceptable risk' faction. Madara could have just as well popped up any time and killed the Jinchuriki anyway, I guess. weakened seal or not.
(Hey, are we looking for reason in Naruto here, guys? Really?!)

Also, Tobi's old mask looks kind of better than his latter, imo.

[doliest]

I know I'm about five chapters behind at the moment, but is anyone else really happy about Kabuto's re-introduction? It's nice to see someone challenge Madara's so far unquestioned position as main villain.

[Frozen_Feet]

I was very happy to see ol' four eyes again. I was sure Kishimota was going to let him lie and fade into obscurity. Also, what does that coffin contain? Dun-dun-dun!

[Lillith]

I really like Kabuto from his first appearance onward. It might have something to do with the fact that besides the long hair he'd be the type of guy (physical wise) I would get interested in. Though man ever since he did that freaky thing with those cells he just freaks the hell out of me every time I see him.

[Oslecamo]

They did no mistake. The seal's weakness was a secret, location where Naruto's mom was giving birth was a secret, and they had the frellin Hokage guarding her.

A "secret" location with a massive door and several Abnu standing around as neon signs that something very important was inside. Really, Naruto ninjas know as much about stealth as rampaging elephants painted with bright red paint.

In particular because the Hokage seems to have truly safe hideouts wich can be acessed only by teleportation. Why didn't he take his wife there to begin with?

Madara appearing there, let alone mind-controlling Kyuubi, were rather big unknowns. Considering the caliber of person we're talking about, it's likely any number of additional security measures might have been futile, or were futile, anyway.

Madara states himself he was planning that attack for a long time and nobody noticed anything? Really the Leaf's village security plainly sucks. Everybody and their mother enter and exit at their leisure troughout the series (Horachimaru, his minions, the sound village, the sand village, ect, ect)

Really, Naruto's heritage might have been the biggest factor in the choice to make him a Jinchuuriki.

By other reasons. It was already mentioned it's custom to make the containers from family members of the village leader.

[Prime32]

Misuna was the best container for the Kyuubi, and most likely, her giving birth was mandatory to have another viable container and to keep the special chakras of Uzumaki clan in circulation. Really, Naruto's heritage might have been the biggest factor in the choice to make him a Jinchuuriki.

Or maybe Minato had to seal the Kyuubi fast, and Naruto was the only available host at the time.

[Oslecamo]

Or maybe Minato had to seal the Kyuubi fast, and Naruto was the only available host at the time.

Wich reminds me, the whole mess could be prevented easily by doing the following:

Madara:Muahahaha, step away or I kill your baby!
Hokage:Ok, I can make more
Madara:Muaha-Hey, what? You don't care if your kid dies?
Hokage: I care, but the risks outweight the gains. I sacrificed countless ninjas to keep this village safe. I murdered countless people to attain my position. Another one won't do much diference if it means keeping the Kyubi locked. Oh, but if you do kill Naruto, I'll use all my resources to hunt and kill you. Painfully. Teleport

This is, we're talking about the leader of a village of what basically amounts to cold blooded assassins. I would expect him to hvae become a cold logic machine by now.

[Lillith]

Wich reminds me, the whole mess could be prevented easily by doing the following:

Madara:Muahahaha, step away or I kill your baby!
Hokage:Ok, I can make more
Madara:Muaha-Hey, what? You don't care if your kid dies?
Hokage: I care, but the risks outweight the gains. I sacrificed countless ninjas to keep this village safe. I murdered countless people to attain my position. Another one won't do much diference if it means keeping the Kyubi locked. Oh, but if you do kill Naruto, I'll use all my resources to hunt and kill you. Painfully. Teleport

This is, we're talking about the leader of a village of what basically amounts to cold blooded assassins. I would expect him to hvae become a cold logic machine by now.

For one I don't think his wife would appreciate that a lot. Also I wouldn't be surprised if he was a little bit emotional at that moment and maybe not thinking completely straight.

[Frozen_Feet]

A "secret" location with a massive door and several Abnu standing around as neon signs that something very important was inside. Really, Naruto ninjas know as much about stealth as rampaging elephants painted with bright red paint.

... a secret location amidst ninja terrain, filled to brim with similar locations. About as unusual as a rampaging elephant amidst a frelling pack of rampaging elephants. Hardly as big fail as you make it to be.

In particular because the Hokage seems to have truly safe hideouts wich can be acessed only by teleportation. Why didn't he take his wife there to begin with?

Madara has shown ability to teleport and make himself intangible. Wouldn't have helped one bit against this particular adversary. This was not a case of Leaf ninjas failing, but the enemy being just that good.

Madara states himself he was planning that attack for a long time and nobody noticed anything? Really the Leaf's village security plainly sucks. Everybody and their mother enter and exit at their leisure troughout the series (Horachimaru, his minions, the sound village, the sand village, ect, ect)

Who ever said Madara ever let out a single bit of that plan slip out of his own head? Considering he's a lying liar who lies, there's no reason to assume anyone but him had any knowledge of his plan. Madara was a single person, long thought dead - for all intents and purposes, he could've just appeared from the void to do his thing. There's a limit an intelligence network can reasonably achieve.

By other reasons. It was already mentioned it's custom to make the containers from family members of the village leader.

"Ah, we have a clan whose members make perfect containers for murderous beasts. Now that we have one of the few remaining members of said clan both containing a beast and in love with our leader, lets not allow her to have kids, so this wonderful clan will die out and next time around we'll have to pick a less-than-perfect container!"

I trust you can see a problem with that plan. I brought it up because I believe there were worthwhile reasons to allow Misuna have children. After all, Naruto ninjas are all for keeping valuable bloodlines alive and in their possession.

[Oslecamo]

Madara has shown ability to teleport and make himself intangible. Wouldn't have helped one bit against this particular adversary. This was not a case of Leaf ninjas failing, but the enemy being just that good.

Madara appears trough wall.
Hokage turns on Benny Hill music.
Hokage teleports with wife and kid to another secret safe hideout.
Madara tries to pursuit with his mad skillz.
Hokage keeps teleporting around with family randomly switching locations.
Eventualy Madara ends up teleporting in the middle of a force of Abnu instead of the Hokage.

Really you just need a little imagination when you have super powers like teleport.

Who ever said Madara ever let out a single bit of that plan slip out of his own head? Considering he's a lying liar who lies, there's no reason to assume anyone but him had any knowledge of his plan. Madara was a single person, long thought dead - for all intents and purposes, he could've just appeared from the void to do his thing. There's a limit an intelligence network can reasonably achieve.

Considering that we're talking about an intelegence network with what basically amounts to magic powers, no, there isn't.

"Ah, we have a clan whose members make perfect containers for murderous beasts. Now that we have one of the few remaining members of said clan both containing a beast and in love with our leader, lets not allow her to have kids, so this wonderful clan will die out and next time around we'll have to pick a less-than-perfect container!"

Love is overrated. Let the container and Leader marry other people so when the crucial moment comes the Leader isn't all soft and easily manipulable.

I trust you can see a problem with that plan. I brought it up because I believe there were worthwhile reasons to allow Misuna have children. After all, Naruto ninjas are all for keeping valuable bloodlines alive and in their possession.

They're so interested that nobody bothered to tell Naruto that he was the son of the Hokage and actualy sent him in plenty of dangerous missions with little or no backup where it could have been very easy he would either get killed or the Kyubi would get out of control.

[Lillith]

Actually it was the Third Hokage who wanted to keep Naruto's lineage a secret. I'm not sure his reasoning behind it though.

[Frozen_Feet]

Considering that we're talking about an intelegence network with what basically amounts to magic powers, no, there isn't.

Considering said magic powers have still been shown to have limitations, yes, there are. If you're taking the stance Konohagakure could've pulled just right jutsu for any conceivable situation, ie. that they're effectively 20 level wizards who just failed to think, fine. I'll counter and say Madara is 21 level wizard, who pwned them on superpower department.

It's the same situation as in Harry Potter - yes, the good guys can will things to existence, but that isn't so great when the enemies can do the same.

Really you just need a little imagination when you have super powers like teleport.

Judging from what Minato did do, he had this sort of plan ready. He failed the execution, there we agree.

Still, I state again this was less a case of Konohagakure failing and more Madara being just that good. All other villages had 'flee on sight' order of Minato - his reputation alone would've been pretty effective defense, even / especially in the unlikely case someone knew all the information of the incident.

You have a point in that 'people in Shounen act like dimwits', but being outsmarted isn't always a sign of being stupid - sometimes its about enemy just being smarter. I'm not convinced any number of additional defenses would've stopped Madara in this case. There are also good reasons to believe he was the only one insane enough to even try - Konoha had both Uchiha and Senju (and Uzumaki), a near-monopoly for best tricks to control the beast. Releasing it has been likened to a natural catastrophe - why would've any party without 100% certainty of controlling Kyuubi even tried releasing it?

[Lillith]

Now I'm wondering though what Itachi's role in this whole thing is. The fact that they suddenly show him at the end of this chapter feels like they're foreshadowing the first contact between Itachi and Madara. Personally I wonder if this starts Itachi's distance towards his brother. As to not get attached. But then again, that whole 'kill the Uchiha' plan wasn't until later.

[AgentofOdd]

Now I'm wondering though what Itachi's role in this whole thing is. The fact that they suddenly show him at the end of this chapter feels like they're foreshadowing the first contact between Itachi and Madara. Personally I wonder if this starts Itachi's distance towards his brother. As to not get attached. But then again, that whole 'kill the Uchiha' plan wasn't until later.

I thought this would actually show Itachi getting close to his brother, or have his feelings for his brother remain unchanged. I'm thinking after meeting Madara he'll conclude his clan have a power that shouldn't be wielded by anyone, but still figures his brother deserves to live for some reason. Maybe Sasuke was an especially cute baby.

Incidentally, has it ever been explained why the creator introduced the concept of elemental chakras? The whole thing always struck me as unncessary.

[Oslecamo]

Considering said magic powers have still been shown to have limitations, yes, there are. If you're taking the stance Konohagakure could've pulled just right jutsu for any conceivable situation, ie. that they're effectively 20 level wizards who just failed to think, fine. I'll counter and say Madara is 21 level wizard, who pwned them on superpower department.
...
Still, I state again this was less a case of Konohagakure failing and more Madara being just that good. All other villages had 'flee on sight' order of Minato - his reputation alone would've been pretty effective defense, even / especially in the unlikely case someone knew all the information of the incident.

But then if Madara is just so good that he can roll over all of the Leaf's village defenses, why does he need the Kyuubi at all? If he can teleport and sneak around and uncover their best secrets whitout anyone noticing anything, why don't just poison their food and slit their throats while they sleep?

You have a point in that 'people in Shounen act like dimwits', but being outsmarted isn't always a sign of being stupid - sometimes its about enemy just being smarter. I'm not convinced any number of additional defenses would've stopped Madara in this case.

Ah, yes I tend to forget for moments that's it's a shonen manga and being a named character allows you to bypass any number of nameless mooks and/or static obstacles like they weren't there thanks to the power of HOTBLOODNESS!

There are also good reasons to believe he was the only one insane enough to even try - Konoha had both Uchiha and Senju (and Uzumaki), a near-monopoly for best tricks to control the beast. Releasing it has been likened to a natural catastrophe - why would've any party without 100% certainty of controlling Kyuubi even tried releasing it?

On the other hand, he's already pretty Hax by himself. Why does he needs the giant angry rampaging Fox again if Abnu are little more than speedbumps on his path? Ok, crazyness may explain that.

[Obrysii]

But then if Madara is just so good that he can roll over all of the Leaf's village defenses, why does he need the Kyuubi at all? If he can teleport and sneak around and uncover their best secrets whitout anyone noticing anything, why don't just poison their food and slit their throats while they sleep?

Brute destructive and distractive power?

[Frozen_Feet]

That's a good question with a real interesting answer... which we probably don't know, yet.

If the Moon's Eye plan has even a hint of truth in it, he needs Kyuubi to achieve world peace without murdering everyone by himself. Of course, this is something we will likely get to know as the story progresses. Whether it'll make any sense is another thing.

Then again, Madara is a lying liar who lies, and is more than a little likely to be bat**** insane. He might have done this for the lulz, just to get back at the descendant of his hated enemy.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Madara appears trough wall.
Hokage turns on Benny Hill music.
Hokage teleports with wife and kid to another secret safe hideout.
Madara tries to pursuit with his mad skillz.
Hokage keeps teleporting around with family randomly switching locations.
Eventualy Madara ends up teleporting in the middle of a force of Abnu instead of the Hokage.

The Hokage isn't simply capable of teleporting though, he can only teleport to a pre-determined location where one of those seals of his are. Now they haven't said if he can only maintain so many seals at a time, but that seems likely.

More importantly, teleporting around madly uses up Minato's chakra and it's probably extremely unsafe to do so while his wife is giving birth! When he does stop and if Madara catches up to him again, he's essentially defenseless. As opposed to getting Naruto to safety since he can just teleport right to his wife.

Really you just need a little imagination when you have super powers like teleport.

Which is difficult to do when the enemy's ability to teleport is better. These are not unlimited abilities either, they consume a limited resource and Uchiha are specifically noted as having more chakra then ordinary people. The chance of Minato running out of chakra before Madara is extremely high.

Considering that we're talking about an intelligence network with what basically amounts to magic powers, no, there isn't.

Considering we are talking about an intelligence network that has limited magical powers, yes, there is. The Leaf wouldn't still have an interrogation unit if they could do things like scry at will or other 'basic Bat-man wizard archtype' tricks. Their biggest tool for interrogation is ripping the memories out of a bound captive, they would still have to get the captives in question. And how are they supposed to detain a guy who walk through walls?

Love is overrated. Let the container and Leader marry other people so when the crucial moment comes the Leader isn't all soft and easily manipulable.

You try telling the leader of your village that. See what happens then. I bet you the answer is 'Uhh, no?'. More importantly it's a better idea to mix the leader and container's bloodlines then to let them go apart. More importantly, if the container and Leader DO marry each other then they have each other for mutual protection. And did you consider Minato was married to Kushina before he became Hokage?

They're so interested that nobody bothered to tell Naruto that he was the son of the Hokage and actualy sent him in plenty of dangerous missions with little or no backup where it could have been very easy he would either get killed or the Kyubi would get out of control.

The why he was never told is on the Third Hokage entirely, as for why he was sent on those missions it's because Minato wanted Naruto to live a normal life (well, for a ninja anyway), Danzo wanted Naruto dead, and Elders didn't care as long as someone was keeping an eye on him. Like Kakashi, the guy they appointed temporary Hokage because he was a top-tier shinobi.

[Oslecamo]

The Hokage isn't simply capable of teleporting though, he can only teleport to a pre-determined location where one of those seals of his are. Now they haven't said if he can only maintain so many seals at a time, but that seems likely.

More importantly, teleporting around madly uses up Minato's chakra and it's probably extremely unsafe to do so while his wife is giving birth! When he does stop and if Madara catches up to him again, he's essentially defenseless.

Except that unless Madara is a completely Hax character and can teleport whitout using chakra, that applies to both. Except that Madara is alone and Minato should have a whole village worth of mooks.

If Madara can use hax tecniques whitout chakra, then Minato would just be royally screwed, but we know he'll win this battle.

As opposed to getting Naruto to safety since he can just teleport right to his wife.

Yeah, after Madara had enough time to get her to other place and rip off the Kyubi. If Minato at least didn't sacrifice valuable time giving the hotbooded speech to his son...

Which is difficult to do when the enemy's ability to teleport is better. These are not unlimited abilities either, they consume a limited resource and Uchiha are specifically noted as having more chakra then ordinary people. The chance of Minato running out of chakra before Madara is extremely high.

So, again, better fall back with pregnant wife to get reinforcments. I would expect Minato, as the hokage, to be able to quickly summon more meat fodder.

Considering we are talking about an intelligence network that has limited magical powers, yes, there is. The Leaf wouldn't still have an interrogation unit if they could do things like scry at will or other 'basic Bat-man wizard archtype' tricks. Their biggest tool for interrogation is ripping the memories out of a bound captive, they would still have to get the captives in question. And how are they supposed to detain a guy who walk through walls?

Well, they can detain him enough that he doesn't just walkz into the Hokage's room while he sleeps and slits his throat. We're talking about highly kept secrets anyway. Madara can't scry as well as far as far as we know.

You try telling the leader of your village that. See what happens then. I bet you the answer is 'Uhh, no?'. More importantly it's a better idea to mix the leader and container's bloodlines then to let them go apart. More importantly, if the container and Leader DO marry each other then they have each other for mutual protection.

Yes that mutual protection really worked out lovely.

And did you consider Minato was married to Kushina before he became Hokage?

If he married before, it would be a point against him being chosen as the next Hokage as he would have deep emotional ties to the containers. Was the Village of Leaf so desesperate for a new Hokage? Ok, they seem to drop like flies, so can't be too picky, I'll give you that.

The why he was never told is on the Third Hokage entirely, as for why he was sent on those missions it's because Minato wanted Naruto to live a normal life (well, for a ninja anyway), Danzo wanted Naruto dead, and Elders didn't care as long as someone was keeping an eye on him. Like Kakashi, the guy they appointed temporary Hokage because he was a top-tier shinobi.

And almost got taken down on their first real mission, geting locked in that bubble thingy.

[Lillith]

Also I think that if they wouldn't let Naruto go on any missions, he'd probably cause an uprising and be worse then he was in the beginning. If you think about it, it is kind of ironic. In the beginning Naruto wanted to do big missions, he couldn't wait, he wanted to fight. Though when he actually got himself in a fight or die situation, he couldn't really get himself to kill anybody.

Now that I think about it, did he ever actually kill anybody? Pain was... near death to begin with. For such a loud ninja, Naruto is actually a pretty non lethal ninja since he doesn't actually kill anybody. Instead he manages to talk the opponents out of it, or the opponent flees. Examples could be Gaara for the talking and what was Clay guys name again for the fleeing.

Btw, would Naruto be able to become Hokage while still being a Genin? Or does his new Sage status give him an exception. He's probably on Jounin levels now anyways.

[Kato]

Actually, I was going to complain we are still looking for logic and reason in Naruto's plot. but I figure it's no use. If you have fun, keep going

Sometime earlier someone mentioned kabuto/kabushimaru/whatveruwannacallhim. I also missed him a lot and I really hope we will have more fun with him until the end of the manga (though, I hope that's not too far away by now).
Anyway, concerning the content of the last coffin: Any bets from you? To be honest, I'm still siding with the 'Madara's real body' faction.

[VanBuren]

Now that I think about it, did he ever actually kill anybody? Pain was... near death to begin with. For such a loud ninja, Naruto is actually a pretty non lethal ninja since he doesn't actually kill anybody. Instead he manages to talk the opponents out of it, or the opponent flees. Examples could be Gaara for the talking and what was Clay guys name again for the fleeing.

Nope. Outside of Kyuubi-mode, he's only ever intended to kill two people anyway: Haku and Pain (at first).