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  1. - Top - End - #1321
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    fffft 'Bluntsword' IT'S A FRIGGING HAMMER.
    And an axe. Which isn't a sword either.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    See 2:15 in this vid.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    At least he gets props for making his sword merely katana-shaped instead of just katanas. Still, best swords in the world were made outside of Japan, and I expected at least one of them to have one.
    "Best" is a matter of opinion. I'll agree Katanas are somewhat overacted, especially the shape, but as far as the quality of the iron Japanese swordsmithing was rivaled only by Damascus steel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumman View Post
    And an axe. Which isn't a sword either.
    Hammer is more egregious.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    fffft 'Bluntsword' IT'S A FRIGGING HAMMER. And the 'blast' sword is just a huge paper-towel roll of explosive tags. I am disappoint, Kishimoto- I was hoping the Swordsmen would at least use, you know, swords.
    Look again. I thought that too. It's a hammer on a chain at the end of a the handle of a sword (which is basicall and axe). He used it to hammer the "sword" into people.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    "Best" is a matter of opinion. I'll agree Katanas are somewhat overacted, especially the shape, but as far as the quality of the iron Japanese swordsmithing was rivaled only by Damascus steel.
    Quality of the iron? Japanese iron deposits were of practically lowest value possible. All that workmanship and man hours put into the sword not even entirely compensated for poor materials and resulted in extremely impractical to repair blade.

    People who sunk workmanship into actual improvement of the weapon produced blades of massively better quality - say, Japanese smith used 4-5 kinds of steel; his Viking contemporary used 8-12 producing a blade that didn't needed fat, dull back to ensure sword didn't broke on anything harder.

    Hammer is more egregious.
    Again, weapon being a combination of hammer and blade is a pick, not hammer, specific kind of pick being decided by nature of the blade.

    Not that it isn't extremely dumb as drawn.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    After rereading the chapter, I have to wonder, what was so bad about weapon spamming the zombie swordmen? It looked like they were taking significant damage. More than enough to incapacitate them so they could be sealed up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Cause the sword could very specifically require blood. Suigetsu DID say it drank the blood, the repair just seems like a helpful side-effect. Afterall, Samehada certainly seemed tempermental, Zabuza's sword could be picky about where it gets iron.
    Very possible, although one could still kill poor woodland animals to repair the sword. Then again, Suigetsu did have trouble wielding the broken sword, so maybe he didn't want the extra weight?

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    At least he gets props for making his sword merely katana-shaped instead of just katanas. Still, best swords in the world were made outside of Japan, and I expected at least one of them to have one.
    And the issue that made Japanese swords bad (Iron quality and scarcity) don't seem to be to prevalent in this setting.

    real swords
    All swords are real swords, that they don't meet your overly narrow definition of a "real sword" simply means you are biased and using the term wrong.

    To be perfectly honest, there are more situations I'd want a good single-edged blade (like a katana) than I'd ever want a sword like a longsword.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Except in Naruto they're mostly unneeded. The Sharingan is still hax if it it just has the abilities to give color to chakra and increase the framerate of the user's eyes (which are required if it can copy techniques). All the later forms of it and its derived techniques don't add anything to the setting, especially with Tsukiyomi being as powerful as it is. What's wrong with Zabuza's sword being a perfectly normal, if incredibly large, sword?
    The problem is that the sword would so pale in comparison to the others that it would be a joke. Kishi wanted to avert the Sorting Algorithm of Evil here, which is hard when you're trying to make a credible threat out of the first villain in the manga.

    ....

    Mizuki doesn't count.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    The problem is that the sword would so pale in comparison to the others that it would be a joke. Kishi wanted to avert the Sorting Algorithm of Evil here, which is hard when you're trying to make a credible threat out of the first villain in the manga.

    ....

    Mizuki doesn't count.
    Very true, but I see a way around even that. Make the sword he wielded in his first appearance not the sword he used as part of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    And the issue that made Japanese swords bad (Iron quality and scarcity) don't seem to be to prevalent in this setting.
    Actually, it's even worse - their gear seems to be mass-produced, machine made one, which negates one advantage katana had, amount of hours master swordsmith wasted on her :P

    All swords are real swords, that they don't meet your overly narrow definition of a "real sword" simply means you are biased and using the term wrong.
    Why, there are swords, and there are swords. I'm not among people who count blades that break when you parry them with real sword to the second category

    To be perfectly honest, there are more situations I'd want a good single-edged blade (like a katana) than I'd ever want a sword like a longsword.
    Exhibit one - chainmail. Simple piece of wargear that made katana virtually useless yet was beatable by longsword's superior thrusts. You need even more superior armour, plate/chain combination to defeat longsword to smaller degree than chain did to katana.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Very true, but I see a way around even that. Make the sword he wielded in his first appearance not the sword he used as part of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist.
    ...

    I'm not sure any of us would buy that in the slightest.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Quality of the iron? Japanese iron deposits were of practically lowest value possible. All that workmanship and man hours put into the sword not even entirely compensated for poor materials and resulted in extremely impractical to repair blade.
    Much of the reason the Japanese developed their highly involved process was because there was very little iron and that iron which did exist was full of impurities. However, the end result was free of virtually all impurities and much higher quality than most western blades.
    People who sunk workmanship into actual improvement of the weapon produced blades of massively better quality - say, Japanese smith used 4-5 kinds of steel; his Viking contemporary used 8-12 producing a blade that didn't needed fat, dull back to ensure sword didn't broke on anything harder.
    The Katana's tendency to break compared to most European swords isn't a matter of iron quality, but the fact that Japanese blades were very hard and sharp, which has the trade off that a duller blade would be less fragile.
    Again, weapon being a combination of hammer and blade is a pick, not hammer, specific kind of pick being decided by nature of the blade.
    Not necessarily. War hammers often had a spike on one end, and the Lucerne hammer is essentially a halberd with a hammer instead of an axe, and I've never heard of either referred to as a pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Actually, it's even worse - their gear seems to be mass-produced, machine made one, which negates one advantage katana had, amount of hours master swordsmith wasted on her :P
    I'm going to assume that the seven most powerful swords in the Naruto world were hand crafted from the finest iron.
    Why, there are swords, and there are swords. I'm not among people who count blades that break when you parry them with real sword to the second category
    You really think a Katana would break parrying, say, a longsword?
    Exhibit one - chainmail. Simple piece of wargear that made katana virtually useless yet was beatable by longsword's superior thrusts. You need even more superior armour, plate/chain combination to defeat longsword to smaller degree than chain did to katana.
    Katanas were not made for thrusting and could not pierce superior European armors. Neither could a longsword save by thrusting. That advantage would be irrelevant in a world like Naruto without armor. Again, I'll admit the Katana isn't the be all end all, but the Japanese smithing process is the highest quality process that has survived to the present day, and historically was compared to Damascus steel.
    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    ...

    I'm not sure any of us would buy that in the slightest.
    Well, if it had been said at the time "oh I don't have my sword because I lost it when I tried to perform a coup" or something then it would work, but what's his name already made a big deal out of trying to take Zabuza's sword.

    As for averting the Sorting Algorithm, it kind of works because it was Kakashi and not the main characters that defeated Zabuza.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2011-01-13 at 06:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    I don't know, it seems to me that someone with good wind or lightning manipulation, great speed, and a sturdy blade would be a force to be reckoned with. With enough speed and a sharp enough blade you'd be almost unstoppable.
    exactly, that is why you need equal magic to stop said person. arms race principle.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    Well, if it had been said at the time "oh I don't have my sword because I lost it when I tried to perform a coup" or something then it would work, but what's his name already made a big deal out of trying to take Zabuza's sword.

    As for averting the Sorting Algorithm, it kind of works because it was Kakashi and not the main characters that defeated Zabuza.
    Well that's sort of what I mean. It's the sort of thing Zabuza would have had to establish when we ran into him. Even if Suigetsu had mentioned it later, it would have been impossible to hear over the chorus of a thousand fans muttering "retcon" under their breath.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    As for averting the Sorting Algorithm, it kind of works because it was Kakashi and not the main characters that defeated Zabuza.
    I know what you mean, but Kakashi is a main character.

    Right?
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    It wouldn't surprise me if Zabuza was the weakest of the seven, and Kakashi is just letting his personal history with him have an effect on who he wants to release from Kabuto first.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Anyway, anyone made any sense of that weird body replacing plan? I saw no point to it whatsoever.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    It wouldn't surprise me if Zabuza was the weakest of the seven, and Kakashi is just letting his personal history with him have an effect on who he wants to release from Kabuto first.
    Zabuza died last. He SHOULD be the strongest.

    Irbis: Sort of. So Kakashi could be guided but... that part was weird. Shadow Stichng made sense.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Zabuza's strength lies in his mist and his silent assassinations, which are just as effective as the more showy techniques most ninja we are familiar with use. Without those he is still Jounin level, but it takes them for him to be truly numbered among the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist. Also, the blood drinking thing might be more useful than we suspect. Kakashi managed to negate those advantages with his dogs, and so Zabuza lost. As for why Kakashi should go for Zabuza first, his mist technique helps all the Swordsmen. Taking out the buffers first is often a good strategy.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Anyway, anyone made any sense of that weird body replacing plan? I saw no point to it whatsoever.
    Kakashi couldn't see in the fog, so he wanted the Yamanaka guy to take control of his body and use his chakra sensing abilities to find Zabuza and then give Kakashi back his body at the last possible second to he can Lighting Edge the guy.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanteanTroll View Post

    Irbis: Sort of. So Kakashi could be guided but... that part was weird. Shadow Stichng made sense.
    It made sense, but in a rather roundabout way. Kakashi get's mind-controlled so that guy can guide Kakashi's body to where Zabuza is, releasing at the last moment so Kakashi can deliver what is hopefully a devastating attack while his Sharingan hopefully gives him enough warning of an incoming attack to dodge. Since Kakashi's shadow is bound, the Nara guy can just extend his shadow from Kakashi's to Zabuza's (since he knows the plan and that Zabuza will be in front of Kakashi) while Zabuza is still regenerating from the attack.

    I think the hope is that the Shadow Sewing technique will stop the Edo Tensei's regeneration of Zabuza's body long enough for mind control guy to rush up to him and bind him for good/rest of the fight.

    It was a sound plan, if a bit complicated.

    Or at least, that's what I gathered from it.
    Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2011-01-13 at 09:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    Kakashi couldn't see in the fog, so he wanted the Yamanaka guy to take control of his body and use his chakra sensing abilities to find Zabuza and then give Kakashi back his body at the last possible second to he can Lighting Edge the guy.
    Okaaaay... My confusion was mostly based on: What the hell can go wrong with sticking your strongest meleer with soul of someone with far lesser combat skills and rushing the guy who is known in the silent killing in the mist - and has 6 sidekicks (and a lackey) to boot?
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Okaaaay... My confusion was mostly based on: What the hell can go wrong with sticking your strongest meleer with soul of someone with far lesser combat skills and rushing the guy who is known in the silent killing in the mist - and has 6 sidekicks (and a lackey) to boot?
    Thing is, it doesn't matter how silent he is, since sound isn't what's being used to find him.

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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanteanTroll View Post
    Look again. I thought that too. It's a hammer on a chain at the end of a the handle of a sword (which is basicall and axe). He used it to hammer the "sword" into people.
    I'm fairly sure it's based on Korean Kabutstuchi cleaver sword... which was practically an axe.

    It's linguistic dissonance on what counts as a "sword".

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    "Best" is a matter of opinion. I'll agree Katanas are somewhat overacted, especially the shape, but as far as the quality of the iron Japanese swordsmithing was rivaled only by Damascus steel.
    As far as I recall, the raw materials Japanese used were vastly inferior to those of Europeans - it was the highly involved smithing process that allowed them to make their swords so good.

    Relevant link.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    Thing is, it doesn't matter how silent he is, since sound isn't what's being used to find him.
    Still, what stops him from offing the guy in Kakashi's body with mid-range tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    Much of the reason the Japanese developed their highly involved process was because there was very little iron and that iron which did exist was full of impurities. However, the end result was free of virtually all impurities and much higher quality than most western blades.
    No. It was still of poor quality. It was pure, yes, but it made it extremely brittle brittle due to hardness. Resulting blade was easy to chip, you could break it by punching it.

    The Katana's tendency to break compared to most European swords isn't a matter of iron quality, but the fact that Japanese blades were very hard and sharp, which has the trade off that a duller blade would be less fragile.
    No, they broke because of above. In fact, the edge needed far thicker "coat" of inferior, ductile steel to not break than European swords, without this cover Katana would have been 1-2 use sword.

    Not necessarily. War hammers often had a spike on one end, and the Lucerne hammer is essentially a halberd with a hammer instead of an axe, and I've never heard of either referred to as a pick.
    Horseman's pick - hammer ending with thin dagger. Military pick - ending with rounded ball. Axe pick (which later evolved into miner's pickaxe) had axe, but with head "flat", not parallel to handle. True warhammers were just hammers, short spike is later invention before they mutated into above :P

    I'm going to assume that the seven most powerful swords in the Naruto world were hand crafted from the finest iron.
    Possibly. But look! The swordsmiths were not dumb enough to make any one of them into a katana!

    You really think a Katana would break parrying, say, a longsword?
    Yes. Metal was crap. Katana lasted literally only as long as the outer skin of mild steel did. Since longswords broke parrying longswords, weaker blade would do that even faster.

    I'll admit the Katana isn't the be all end all, but the Japanese smithing process is the highest quality process that has survived to the present day, and historically was compared to Damascus steel.
    Punch whoever told you this in the face, for he sold you greatest lie, ever. Damascene steel was legendary because sabers made from it were supposed to cut the other swords in half. If there's even one tenth truth in these claims, they would literally hack katana apart.

    Now, admittedly, the process was lost, but we have some examples, as well as later copies of the process (like bulat steel) and all of these not only have superior steel as a base, but also superior craftmanship you would be hard pressed to find in any katana, save maybe for a few pieces made by most famous swordsmiths for the richest officials, who could afford paying for enough man-hours poured into it to make tens of thousands of layers in the blade. Even then, the process was flawed due to inferior materials used - note that European steel didn't need making such steel sandwiches in the slightest, while Damascean one was not only of superior quality but also of superior workmanship adding to that. Still, Viking swordsmiths did produced a few pieces only slightly inferior to Damast, despite being earlier some centuries. Comparable katanas come much later, quite a few centuries after Damast steel secret was lost.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Damascus steel was so good, I've read, because the production process created carbon nanotubes within the final product. The material was superior to its contemporaries, indeed, even some alloys we use for blades today!

    I still suggest you take a look at the link to ARMA site and drop the discussion, though.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Damascus steel was so good, I've read, because the production process created carbon nanotubes within the final product. The material was superior to its contemporaries, indeed, even some alloys we use for blades today!
    Note that this part might or might not be true as it was not confirmed

    I still suggest you take a look at the link to ARMA site and drop the discussion, though.
    Eh, ok, let's move this discussion to PMs, then.
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Besides: Katanas are just better.

    Hayate has a katana... and he has a cult following from his episodes. Shows, dunnit?
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    I for one, really liked most of the swords of the seven swordsmen, the only one I didn't like was the explosion thingy.

    And I also really liked the ability of Zabuza's Sword, makes me feel great about my avatar
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    Default Re: Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

    Well now, wasn't that an exciting new chapter? Crazy stuff the swordsmen use (and I'm glad I got here after the whole discussion), guess Kishi still had some crazy ideas he needed to get out of his head.
    Also, I enjoyed the side-flashes (whatever) to Suigetsu and him finally telling us why he is so obsessed with the swordsmen. (So, his brother is a Stu, too. Puts his relationship with Sasuke in another light. (Oh no, the fangirls!))

    The body switch thing confused me, too. But I forgot the Yamanakas could sense chakra as well... (Also, his name is really Santa? )

    Finally: prediction for next week: Kakashi (or someone) will flame Zabuza for not caring about cutting off Haku's head and he will regret it and confess his love or whatever yadda, yadda; Haku will be happy, Zabuza will be happy and they will both be released. Or something to that effect.

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