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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Here's the build I have which incorporates SA...

    Sir Noah Whay

    Paladin of Tyrrany 3/Hexblade3/Monk2/Suel Archanamach 4/Abjurant Champion5/Uncanny Trickster 3 (Advancing Abjurant Champion).

    In effect, he says 'no'. Whatever you are bringing, he simply declines to acquiesce to your request.

    2x CHA to all saves, aura which drops opponent saves by -2, Evasion AND Mettle, Wis to AC, Unarmed being the primary damage dealer, and then we get to buffs.

    Abjurant Champion + Uncanny Trickster = 4th level Abjuration spells may be quickened. I'm not sure how to increase this, but you'd need another 2 abjurant champion effective levels to get all his Abjuration spells auto-quickened. However, there's some fun 4th level Abjuration spells we can use. The big one from Core, of course, is Dimensional Anchor.

    Greater Mirror Image = almost impossible to hit in melee combat.
    Mage Armor + Shield = another +18 to AC, before toys
    Protection from Good = another +7 Deflection bonus
    Greater Mighty Wallop = decent damage output
    Wraithstrike. When you absolutely, positively HAVE to hit EVERY TIME...

    So right off the bat, we have:

    NO to anything allowing a saving throw. It simply won't work, unless you crank your DC's into the 50's.

    NO to anything trying to hit in melee. Assuming you get the 1 in 8 chance of actually hitting the RIGHT 'him', you still have to contend with AC in the upper 50's. Even touch spells will have a problem considering his TOUCH AC will be over 30.

    He can pick up toys to be immune to situational effects. Ring of Freedom of Movement, for example, or a Scarab of Protection to stop the Enervation Spam. Or simply be a Warforged/Necropolitian and be immune to Enervation Spam. Periapt of proof against poison makes you immune to poison, you're already immune to diseases thanks to Paladin of Tyranny. Monk's Belt + Improved Natural Attack + Greater Mighty Wallop for some pretty nasty damage output. Lesser Cloak of Displacement is good at being immune to sneak attack, plus gives you a decent miss chance.

    Feats can be chosen to flavor, depending on what you are facing. Prerequsite feats are pathetically easy to obtain, of course, so you can either go Lockdown with Gatling Tripper cheese, or go Ubercharge with Shock Trooper/Leap Attack. Other options may be found in Tome of Battle. Counter Charge is always nice if you find yourself facing Uberchargers, Shadow Blade/Assassin's Stance if you wish to be a Dex-centric character, Stone Power/Shards of Granite is nice for ignoring DR/Hardness, and of course, Snap Kick for getting more attacks per round. Karmic Strike + Evasive Reflexes = never get hit by a full attack ever again, as long as you have room to maneuver.

    The point of this build is:

    1) Never say Die
    2) Tell Batman to Piss Off
    3) Beat Down/Lockdown machine
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-07-11 at 03:00 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Mage Armor + Shield = another +18 to AC, before toys
    The Complete Mage errata states that Mage Armor should not benefit from the Abjurant Champion ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    The Complete Mage errata states that Mage Armor should not benefit from the Abjurant Champion ability.
    Which most people ignore and allow it anyways. However, if your GM is a prick, simply use Luminous Armor instead and get a +21 rather than +18
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-07-11 at 02:59 PM.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Don't forget Ray Deflection (SpC). Though I can still hit him with sufficiently metamagicked and uncapped Hail of Stone/Swarm of Crystals.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Don't forget Ray Deflection (SpC). Though I can still hit him with sufficiently metamagicked and uncapped Hail of Stone/Swarm of Crystals.
    I don't think he's going to be worried about 1d4/level (cap 5d4) damage. Unless you have some way of negating the cap and doing over 200 damage with the spell, it's probably not going to work, since he'll already have a method of ignoring negative levels, so Fell Drain will not be effective.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-07-11 at 03:07 PM.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I don't think he's going to be worried about 1d4/level (cap 5d4) damage. Unless you have some way of negating the cap and doing over 200 damage with the spell, it's probably not going to work, since he'll already have a method of ignoring negative levels, so Fell Drain will not be effective.
    I do in fact - The Reserves of Strength feat from Dragonlance, which I was referring to. And of course the psionic version has no cap.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Alternatively, use orbs, which are not rays.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    Alternatively, use orbs, which are not rays.
    They still require an attack roll, which his heavy deflection touch AC and greater mirror image can screw with.

    EDIT: Any reason you're using Monk instead of Battle Dancer? Seems to me that Cha to AC would be better than Wis here, thanks to PoT/Hexblade/Suel.

    Or pick up the Ascetic Mage feat.
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-07-11 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    They still require an attack roll, which his heavy deflection touch AC and greater mirror image can screw with.

    EDIT: Any reason you're using Monk instead of Battle Dancer? Seems to me that Cha to AC would be better than Wis here, thanks to PoT/Hexblade/Suel.

    Or pick up the Ascetic Mage feat.
    Evasion is why I grabbed Monk. Well, Evasion + unarmed damage + all three good saves.

    And Deflection is a good portion of the touch AC, so you're at least partially correct before you corrected yourself.

    Also, IIRC, the feat that uncaps spells also stuns you for a round. So you'd better pray to the dice dieties that you manage to kill me with a measly 1d4/level, because you're not going to survive what comes next.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-07-11 at 04:04 PM.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

    The stun is trivially negated, natch, and the feat instead just deals you some small damage that's easily obviated, reduced, or just eaten. You're a caster, you weren't using that health for anything anyway. :)

    So my core question is:
    What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2010-07-11 at 04:07 PM.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?
    Totally my new sig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Race Suggestion: D'hin'ni (Dragon 350)

    +2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha
    Small
    20' speed
    Counts as halfling for feats, PrCs, etc.
    60' Darkvision
    +1 racial to all saves
    +2 racial to thrown weapon and sling attack rolls
    +2 racial to Climb, Jump, Listen, Move Silently
    Airborne creatures take a -1 penalty to attack/damage on d'hin'ni
    SLAs: prestidigitation (at will); gust of wind, whispering wind, wind wall (1/day); CL is equal to ECL, Cha-based saves
    Languages: Common, Halfling, Auran
    Favored: Sorcerer
    LA +1

    The Wis penalty doesn't really hurt due to the requirement for Iron Will plus the Arcanamach's good save progression (and the progressions for most entering classes too). Everything else is just amazing. Could even go something like Spellthief 4/Duskblade 3/Arcanamach 10/Magical Trickster 3.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    As Doc pointed out, stun is pathetically easy to obviate. And since Hail of Stone is 1st-level, I can pile on metamagic like no tomorrow - Empower, Maximize, Twin - if you optimize to be a spellbreaker, it's a must that I'm going to optimize my unbreakable spell. I can always reselect them once you're dead

    The Psion/Wilder can just shower you with Crystals, no cap feat needed, linking in Hustle/Inconstant Location etc. to keep his distance from you. DR is per round, so even if you're protected against slashing damage, they will lacerate you eventually.

    Still, you're taking on Tier 1s and 2s, so you should feel proud for having gotten that far in any case.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    So my core question is:
    What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?
    The only problem with this particular line of thinking is it can eventually repeated for every aspect of D&D until we are left with Pun-Pun. Where is the line, and why is that line the correct one for all groups?
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    The only problem with this particular line of thinking is it can eventually repeated for every aspect of D&D until we are left with Pun-Pun. Where is the line, and why is that line the correct one for all groups?
    So let's all play truenamers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    So let's all play truenamers!
    Yes. Clearly that's exactly what I was saying.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    So let's all play truenamers!
    *facepalm*

    I'm pretty sure his point is that in a group of Tippyverse casters, Suel Arcanamach is subpar, but in a group with a Beguiler, Shugenja, and Warblade, it will be fine.

    Every group has their own comfort zone for power level, and there are X number of options that can fit comfortably within it. It's just a matter of where you want to end up.

    Edit: Good job with the handbook, BTW. I might link to it once I amass enough resources to publish the Great Big Book of Gishes. Suel Arcanamach doesn't get enough love.
    Last edited by Private-Prinny; 2010-07-11 at 05:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Yes. Clearly that's exactly what I was saying.
    How does your footwear feel now that it has been put on an appendage other than the one it was intended for?
    Last edited by Prodan; 2010-07-11 at 05:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    How does your footwear feel now that it has been put on an appendage other than the one it was intended for?
    As if my point were totally missed, basically. This happens.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Prodan, I'm really not sure what you're getting at. The answer to Doc's question is simply "the player feels like being a Suel" - no other reason is necessary.

    The point of a handbook is so that players who have already decided "I'm going to give X a try" can find out what kind of cool things they can do within the framework that X provides. Nobody reads a Shugenja handbook if they aren't already interested in being a Shugenja; the same principle applies here.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Prodan, I'm really not sure what you're getting at.
    That getting this:
    The only problem with this particular line of thinking is it can eventually repeated for every aspect of D&D until we are left with Pun-Pun.
    From this:
    So my core question is:
    What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?
    Is unwarranted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    The question itself is unwarranted. What can be deemed "worth taking" depends on numerous factors - the options available, the power level of the group, the challenges to be faced, and above all the concept in the mind of the player. It cannot be answered without first answering those. That is, I believe, what Amphetryon was getting at.

    If sheer power is the only consideration - then yes, Pun-pun is indeed the only place to stop.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    The question itself is unwarranted. What can be deemed "worth taking" depends on numerous factors - the options available, the power level of the group, the challenges to be faced, and above all the concept in the mind of the player. It cannot be answered without first answering those. That is, I believe, what Amphetryon was getting at.

    If sheer power is the only consideration - then yes, Pun-pun is indeed the only place to stop.
    Yes, but the question was why to take Suel Arcanamach, specifically?

    There are many ways to build gishes, and Arcanamach's abilities aren't that special or shiny.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Yes, but the question was why to take Suel Arcanamach, specifically?

    There are many ways to build gishes, and Arcanamach's abilities aren't that special or shiny.
    Exactly - this leads us right back to the question of what the player wants to do. He may simply want to give the Suel a try, being aware that it is neither the best gish option out there nor the worst.

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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Not sure if it was mentioned, but Suel Arcanamach was the subject of a BG Iron Chef challenge. It ended in a 3-way tie between me, Surreal, and another contestant.

    Here was my build:

    Prospero, Human Crusader 5/Soulborn 1/Suel Arcanamach 6/Master Transmogrifer 8
    BAB +14, 5th level spells at CL 15

    Feats:
    1st hmn: Eschew Materials
    1st char: Iron Will
    3rd char: Combat Casting
    6th char: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) (Bo9S)
    9th char: Practiced Spellcaster (Suel Arc.) (C. Arc.)
    12th char: Combat Reflexes
    15th char: Robilar's Gambit (PHB II)
    18th char: Defensive Sweep (PHB II)

    It's your typical gish/tank character relying on polymorph with Master Transmogrifer to gain a fantastic reach and strength to offset the poor natural BAB.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    One advantage that a Suel has over other Gishy Fishys is that Suels are REALLY hard to dispel. By the time you stack AbjChamp's Martial Arcanist on top of Tenacious Magic and pick up a Ring of Enduring Arcana, you are looking at a dispel DC thats about 10 points higher than your character level. That means that agressive foes are gonna have to roll REALLY high (like, 19-20 if they are lucky), or be totally dispel focused and STILL only have a moderate chance to dispel you.

    A Sorcadin doesn't have that advantage.

    Plus, the 6ish customizable levels you have before taking Suel is kinda neat. Some combination of Duskblade, Barbarian, Fighter, Warblade, Paladin, Hexblade, etc gets you some nice frontloaded dips that can really synergize with the whole build. You won't get level 9 spells, but you are a gish, and most of the best gish spells are in the 1-5 level range anyway.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    I like the mystic ranger build, by the way. Simple and cool, though I'd probably screw the extra 2 skill points and just go for Abjurant Champion. It's just too good of a gish PrC to resist IMO :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    So my core question is:
    What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?
    I like PrCs that grant spellcasting over 10 levels, and the Suel falls nicely between Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest stupidity on the one hand, and Blackguard/Assassin fail casting on the other hand.

    If you're playing from 1-20, you can start with high BAB classes when they are good (crusader, warblade, etc), then at mid-levels transition into a gish character with very little loss of power. As opposed to starting with 5 levels of wizard, for example, which will rock at high levels, but forces you to play like a wizard for the early levels, which not everyone enjoys.

    Personally, I think straight duskblade 20 is probably just as strong and fun as most suel arcanamach builds, but that's not a bad thing.
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    Default Re: The Suel Arcanamach Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

    The stun is trivially negated, natch, and the feat instead just deals you some small damage that's easily obviated, reduced, or just eaten. You're a caster, you weren't using that health for anything anyway. :)

    So my core question is:
    What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?
    There is more to Monk than Evasion, my friend.

    True, it is a coarse and gritty substance, which requires a great deal of expertise in properly preparing, but there are times where it can be used without detriment.

    Case in point: the use to which I have just placed it.

    I use every aspect of the Monk2 dip. Even Flurry of Blows, that most rancid of ill-fit cuts.

    You see, first off, Sir Noah uses unarmed attacks as his primary method of assault. And the singular advantage of monk unarmed strikes is that none of them are considered 'off-handed', and may be Power Attacked with. Thus, with Flurry + Snap Kick, he's dishing out a decent number of attacks per round. Plus, with a simple enhancement, any weapon may be treated as a monk weapon for flurry purposes, effectively a cheaper version of Haste which stacks with Haste. So he can two-hand a weapon, such as a Spiked Chain, and proceed to Ubercharge with the best of them.

    Using the Overwhelming Assault style, we get both Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush, which lets him get into Shock Trooper much easier, with less of a Feat Investment, which is always a good thing.

    Wis bonus to AC is good, because it gives you another stat which you can use. Many complain about MAD, which is, to a certain degree, true. However, there is a certain economy in a Belt of Magnificence, if you truly utilize all six stats. However, quite simply, you aren't using Wis. With Ascetic Mage, you are instead using Charisma, which you have already gotten a pile of saves, you may as well get AC from it as well.

    Saves, my friend, are Sir Noah's primary defense against Batman and his ilk And with a two-level dip, we get a +3 to all three of them. Not worth it by itself, but certainly adds a full, robust flavor to the overall concoction.

    And we get to Evasion. However, fingers are precious things. A ring may well solve this problem, but is it the best thing to do when you may only have two? We've already dedicated one to Freedom of Movement. Dare we use the other for Evasion, and close all options? What about a Ring of Spell-Battle so that he will know whom is casting what on whom, and possibly redirect spells to a somewhat more... beneficial location? Like that Hail of Stones spell which was mentioned previously... would be much better placed over the head of the offending mage, rather than potentially harm Noah. Or a Ring of Counterspells, since, as you said, it IS only a 1st level spell.

    So as you can see, the two-level dip in Monk is not merely for Evasion, although it is still, in my opinion that it would be less painful than to waste a ring slot on it, but it incorporates every bit of what the class has to offer, and leverages each part in ways which far surpasses the class itself.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-07-11 at 08:59 PM.
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