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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default The other kind of min-maxing

    Just wanted to get some thoughts from other people on this idea.

    My gaming group is somewhat blind in their assessment of D&D 3.5 and the power balance. As in 20th-level fighter is as strong as 20th-level wizard kind of blindness. They also think Mystic Theurge is a broken prestige class.

    I'm wondering if I can get them to allow me to play a Mystic Theurge, but play up the optimization of a wizard/cleric class.

    I know playing a Tier 1 (and optimizing it) in a group of Tier 4-6 or so is bad taste, but what is the reaction if I intentionally gimp myself?
    1. Have fun. It's only a game.
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    4. Everyone is allowed an opinion. Some games are not as cool as they seem.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    I don't understand, do you just want to play a Mystic Theurge or do you want to show them they're wrong? Because if you just want to show them they're wrong dominating as a single classed Wizard or Cleric would be more effective.

    To your second point, if you purposely don't perform overpoweringly they probably won't think you're overpowered. It doesn't sound like they're mechanic minded enough to look at your sheet and realize you're stronger than them so their ideas will likely come from witnessing how you perform.
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-07-11 at 08:51 PM.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Umael View Post
    I know playing a Tier 1 (and optimizing it) in a group of Tier 4-6 or so is bad taste, but what is the reaction if I intentionally gimp myself?
    Have fun with your Theurge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    In a group of tier 5 characters a teir 4 character is king. If you were a blaster wizard only then a fighter isn't that horrible. For example if you went focused specialist evokation and banned conjuration, transmutation and necromancy then you wouldn't be that much better than a melee type.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    What's the fun of not min-maxing?
    The less you're worried about the numbers, the easier it is to make a character that's fun to roleplay. :)
    Unless it's not one of those games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    Not again...

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhurgyof View Post
    What's the fun of not min-maxing?
    The less you're worried about the numbers, the easier it is to make a character that's fun to roleplay. :)
    Do you want a minute to think over the flaws in your statement before I say something involving the Stormwind Fallacy?
    Last edited by Prodan; 2010-07-11 at 09:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    If they think Mystic Theurge is broken, it might leave a bad taste in their mouths if you pick it up, even if we all know better.

    If you want to show them that they're wrong, you could just throw some math at them, but again, bad taste.

    If this is just about how to blend in while playing a decently powerful caster, use those extra slots to your advantage to buff the party, and only take the gloves off when you're close to a TPK. Powerful buffers can slide by unnoticed unless you're mechanically minded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhurgyof View Post
    What's the fun of not min-maxing?
    The less you're worried about the numbers, the easier it is to make a character that's fun to roleplay. :)
    Unless it's not one of those games.
    Stormwind alert! Stormwind alert! BLOOOP BLOOOP BLOOOP!

    Anyway, the best thing you can do in a low op group if you want to optimize is to max out a support character. Be a buffer wizard, buffer cleric, or buffer drood, or bard. Bards in particular are hillarious because historically they have such a bad name as being weak.

    Watch their jaws drop when you add 4d6 fire damage to all of their hits at level 3...
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    Do you want a minute to think over the flaws in your statement before I say something?
    I'm saying that creating a character that can dispatch of any enemy and just killing monsters doesn't make for a good roleplaying game.
    I understand the problem, but he said making a bad character isn't fun, but making a character that's unoptimized can be fun. Thog, the half-orc bard/fighter, A half-elf barbarian that's timid but is close to snapping, etc., etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    Not again...

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    What is this half-elf of which you speak? I don't seem to remember seeing it before.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    What is this half-elf of which you speak? I don't seem to remember seeing it before.
    I don't know if this is sarcasm. Both of those were characters of mine.
    Someone told me to name my half orc bard thog, but this was before I discovered OotS. xD
    And it's just a character I'm gunna make if mine dies, a half-elf barbarian with low strength and low con. He's very timid and doesn't carry himself well. Until he just snaps and goes ape-**** crazy. xD
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    OP, what is your objective?

    Are you trying to show them how broken Wizards and Clerics are at the same time, or do you just want to play a Mystic Theurge?

    I ask because playing a MT will make it harder to demonstrate how broken one class or the other is. On the other hand, they will probably hate your guts and overreact to everything you do as a Mystic Theurge, even if it is very underwhelming.

    "You're flying around at level 8? That's BROKEN!"

    ...Even though a Wizard would be doing that at level 5. I guarantee you you will have a moment like that, that is, if you just want to play a MT.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhurgyof View Post
    And it's just a character I'm gunna make if mine dies, a half-elf barbarian with low strength and low con. He's very timid and doesn't carry himself well. Until he just snaps and goes ape-**** crazy. xD
    How would this be better roleplayed than a more powerful build?
    Last edited by Prodan; 2010-07-11 at 09:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Eh, depending on the character they might not even realize how powerful you are. A Wiz 5/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 10 is certainly a powerful PrC, but if they are doing all the killing after you weave 10 buffs into them, they might not even realize how strong your character is. Same for a character based on crowd control ("god" wizard) or for an artificer who makes items for the party.

    Honestly, I've had players complain about my ranger/scout getting 3rd level spells when I was in a party with a druid, a wizard, and a cleric. At 13th level. There's simply no accounting for what people might think is broken or not.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    How would this be better roleplayed than a more powerful build?
    I'm not sure, but I'm saying that adding up numbers is not a good way to roleplay.

    I misread the OP and I thought he said "What's the fun in intentionally gimping myself". Dx
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    Not again...

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Ah, but adding up numbers is INDEPENDANT of roleplay. You can roleplay an effective character as one who doesn't think hes effective, and then surprises himself when he "goes crazy and kills people" as you mentioned it. You don't actually have to be terrible to do it.

    Stormwind Fallacy, google it. Unfortunately, the origional thread has been lost in the polluted sesspool that has become the gleemax forums. Lame.

    HA! Simu-swordsaged all of you!
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-07-11 at 09:37 PM.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhurgyof View Post
    I'm saying that creating a character that can dispatch of any enemy and just killing monsters doesn't make for a good roleplaying game.
    I understand the problem, but he said making a bad character isn't fun, but making a character that's unoptimized can be fun. Thog, the half-orc bard/fighter, A half-elf barbarian that's timid but is close to snapping, etc., etc.
    I'm failing to understand how my desire to be mechanically well made is reducing my ability to roleplay. Your description of Thog even gains its interest by centering around a personality trait, something that is not influenced by Thog's mechanics but rather by how you yourself roleplay him.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhurgyof View Post
    I'm not sure, but I'm saying that adding up numbers is not a good way to roleplay.
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay.

    What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive." Whether people can roleplay well or not has nothing to do with how they handle numbers.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Guys, I said that I misread the OP. I was sure he said that there's no fun in gimping yourself, so I was describing fun characters that are non-optimized and that just being concerned with your character's power doesn't make for a fun game at all... O.o
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    HA! Simu-swordsaged all of you!
    Check post number 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."
    This is going straight into my sig.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhurgyof View Post
    Guys, I said that I misread the OP. I was sure he said that there's no fun in gimping yourself, so I was describing fun characters that are non-optimized and that just being concerned with your character's power doesn't make for a fun game at all... O.o
    No way man, we've got a hate train going. Don't use your friendly demeanor or the admittance of making a mistake to stop us!
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-07-11 at 09:43 PM.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    I indeed feel stupid for misreading the OP and learned my lesson. Dx
    Playing an unoptimized character can be just as fun as playing an optimized character was the point I was making. The game doesn't have to be all about the numbers.

    Ah, poo, hate train? xD
    Last edited by Lhurgyof; 2010-07-11 at 09:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    Not again...

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    OP, if you want to break the fallacy of 'fighter 20 ~ wizard 20', just use a lower-tier caster like a beguiler to out-contribute the others. Demonstrating that MT <<< straight Tier 1 class has to wait until they recognize that there's a tier system to begin with, and breaking them down with a Tier 1-2 class is probably too much of a shock to a Tier 4+ party.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2010-07-11 at 09:50 PM.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    OP, if you want to break the fallacy of 'fighter 20 ~ wizard 20', just use a lower-tier caster like a beguiler .
    Woah there, Nelly! The beguiler is totally broken because it has a large amount of spells known per level from which it casts spontaneously, and we all know how powerful spontaneous casters are! On top of that, it gets more HP and actual class features, making it more OP than the sorcerer, who only has his familiar to keep himself company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    Woah there, Nelly! The beguiler is totally broken because it has a large amount of spells known per level from which it casts spontaneously, and we all know how powerful spontaneous casters are! On top of that, it gets more HP and actual class features, making it more OP than the sorcerer, who only has his familiar to keep himself company.
    Why the sarcasm? He was saying that the OP should use a lower Tiered class than Wizard or Cleric to show that even without being one of the Big X, casting itself is generally more powerful than the bottom of the rung tiered classes thus introducing them to the tier system.

    Or were you doing mock examples the groups potential responses?
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-07-11 at 09:57 PM.
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    Woah there, Nelly! The beguiler is totally broken because it has a large amount of spells known per level from which it casts spontaneously, and we all know how powerful spontaneous casters are! On top of that, it gets more HP and actual class features, making it more OP than the sorcerer, who only has his familiar to keep himself company.
    But how will either of them get through the Monk's spell resistance? Then he can just use Quivering Palm. How will they ever make a DC 22 Fortitude save?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    Why the sarcasm? He was saying that the OP should use a lower Tiered class than Wizard or Cleric to show that even without being one of the Big X, casting itself is generally more powerful than the bottom of the rung tiered classes thus introducing them to the tier system
    Doesn't mean a thing of the group thinks the Beguiler is broken, which they probably will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Levels
    The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    who only has his familiar to keep himself company.
    Cause we all know, classes that don't get familiars are totally weak. Familiars can totally tank and are badass like that. *cough* Lightning Warrior *cough*
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    Default Re: The other kind of min-maxing

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodan View Post
    Doesn't mean a thing of the group thinks the Beguiler is broken, which they probably will.
    Yeah, caught onto your point and ninja edited it in.
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