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    Default Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    VOID DISCIPLE

    "Insofar as one denies what is, one is possessed by what is not, the compulsions, the fantasies, the terrors that flock to fill the void."

    -- Ursula K. LeGuin




    This is a 20-level class loosely based on the Void Disciple prestige class originally presented in Complete Divine (pp.72-74). The void disciple is skilled with manipulating elemental void, and can perceive the unseen, manipulate the ki of individual for their benefit or detriment, rearrange time and space, or even tamper with fate itself. The void disciple is the perfect class for strategic players who like to study their opponents and use that knowledge to construct the perfect plan. Because the void disciple's offensive powers are limited, it's a better fit for players who prefer to take on a supporting role in combat.

    Spoiler: Change Log
    Show
    1.0 Original version.
    1.01 Added a list of referenced sources.
    1.02 Added several paragraphs of additional description to the Sense Void feature, defining more precisely how it works and what it can and cannot do.
    1.1 Made several updates to the spell list, pruning less useful spells and adding some more useful ones.
    1.2 Added the Boundless Sight feature to provide a supernatural sense.
    1.3 Added Advanced Learning to increase the flexibility of the spell list.
    1.31 Added restrictions on Subtlety of Void to make it clear that the virtual feats don't interact with prerequisites or metamagic feats.
    1.4 Spread the progression of Subtley of Void out over 12 levels instead of 4.
    1.5 Removed the Elemental Lore feature, which didn't see use in actual gameplay. Sacred and profane bonuses from [void] spells are now converted to competence bonuses, instead of insight bonuses.
    1.6 Removed the Void Strike and Void Suppression features, converting them into spells. Greatly simplified Subtlety of Void. Replaced Void Use and Depth of the Void with No-Thought, which now explicitly copies the action point system. Void points are now tracked as a column on the class table. Made minor edits to Altering the Course, Moment of Clarity, and Self/No Self. Eliminated Advanced Learning.
    1.61 Updated tables, made some minor text corrections.
    2.0 Major revision that recasts the void disciple as a user of mysteries rather than a caster of arcane spells. The void disciple loses all spellcasting, gains a menu of mysteries and a mystery-casting mechanic, and sees its void use mechanic somewhat expanded. Overall, I feel this format better captures the proper style and feel for a void disciple. For players who preferred the original void disciple as an arcane caster, it is still available.


    GAME RULE INFORMATION
    Void disciples have the following game statistics.

    Abilities: Intelligence and Wisdom are the most important abilities for a void disciple, as they determines how powerful a mystery she can cast and how hard those mysteries are to resist. Wisdom improves a void disciple's Armor Class, and void disciples who use rays frequently will appreciate a high Dexterity. A void disciple also benefits from a high Constitution score much as a sorcerer or wizard would. A void disciple who focuses on social interaction may rely on Charisma to support key skills, but with a little forethought, her class features and mysteries can more than compensate for low skill bonuses.

    Alignment: Any Neutral. Void disciples must maintain some level of detachment from the affairs of the world in order to focus on the infinite.

    Hit Die: d6

    Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Special Void Points Fundamentals Mysteries
    1st +0 +2 +2 +2 Empty mind, ishiken-do, void use 2 3 1
    2nd +1 +3 +3 +3 Bonus feat; see text 2 3 2
    3rd +1 +3 +3 +3 Boundless sight 2 3 3
    4th +2 +4 +4 +4 Ring of the void 3 4 4
    5th +2 +4 +4 +4 Supernatural mystery 3 4 5
    6th +3 +5 +5 +5 Sense void 2/day (physical senses) 3 4 6
    7th +3 +5 +5 +5 4 4 7
    8th +4 +6 +6 +6 Ring of the void 4 5 8
    9th +4 +6 +6 +6 4 5 9
    10th +5 +7 +7 +7 Sense void 4/day (magical senses) 5 5 10
    11th +5 +7 +7 +7 Self/no self 5 5 11
    12th +6/+1 +8 +8 +8 Ring of the void 6 6 12
    13th +6/+1 +8 +8 +8 6 6 13
    14th +7/+2 +9 +9 +9 Sense void 6/day (empathic senses) 7 6 14
    15th +7/+2 +9 +9 +9 7 6 15
    16th +8/+3 +10 +10 +10 Ring of the void 8 7 16
    17th +8/+3 +10 +10 +10 8 7 17
    18th +9/+4 +11 +11 +11 Sense void 8/day (mental senses) 9 7 18
    19th +9/+4 +11 +11 +11 9 7 19
    20th +10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Ring of the void 10 8 20


    CLASS SKILLS (4 + Int mod per level, x4 at 1st level)
    A void disciple's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).



    "Know that what is born
    Must necessarily die.

    Think of what form you had before you were born,
    And … what appearance you will take
    long after you have died.

    Your myriad thoughts will turn to cold ashes,
    Your true Nature will stand alone.

    Return all to the Void.…"


    -- Hung Ying-Ming, The Roots of Wisdom - Saikontan


    CLASS FEATURES
    Your mysteries and class features make you ill-suited for solo roles, but you can be a valuable contributor to a team. You are best suited to tasks that involve negotiating with others or gathering information through magic. You are also quite proficient at debuffing foes and enhancing your allies. At higher levels, you can reliably counter enemy spellcasters or even unmake your enemies completely, unraveling their essence.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The void disciple gains proficiency with all simple weapons. She gains no proficiency with armor or shields.


    Empty Mind (Ex): Through kata and meditation, you have learned to clear your mind of fear, desire, and regret, that you may act free from worldly worries. Add your Wisdom bonus to your Armor Class. You lose this bonus whenever you are helpless or immobilized, when you are wearing armor or using a shield, or when you are carrying a medium or heavy load.

    Ishiken-Do (Su): As a void disciple, you begin practicing ishiken-do, or “the way of the void”. You may use your Wisdom instead of your Charisma when determining save DCs for any spell-like or supernatural abilities you possess, such as your mysteries. As part of your training, you begin to learn basic void magic. These powers, known as fundamentals, function as at-will supernatural abilities. Activating a fundamental requires a standard action unless otherwise noted. The save DC of any fundamental is equal to 10 + ½ your hit dice + your Wisdom modifier.

    Mysteries and Paths: A void disciple invokes mystical secrets known as mysteries, spell-like abilities which are drawn from the void disciple mystery list (see below, and check back in a few hours for a link to a separate thread with complete text for mysteries). Although you are not a spellcaster, you have a caster level for using mysteries equal to your void disciple level, and you suffer an arcane spell failure chance if you attempt to invoke mysteries while wearing armor.

    The four grades of mysteries are fundamentals, or 0th-level mysteries, apprentice mysteries of 1st to 3rd level, initiate mysteries of 4th to 6th level, and master mysteries of 7th to 9th level. Within each of the latter three grades, mysteries are organized into paths of three thematically connected mysteries, one of each level.

    Your collection of mysteries known, together with your void disciple bonus feats (if you have any), is referred to as your dharma. You begin play with a single dharma containing three fundamentals and one apprentice mystery. As you advance in level, you will acquire the ability to assume different dharmas, and learn additional mysteries and bonus feats which you will add to each of your dharmas. Essentially, each dharma is a container which grants you a completely different set of bonus feats and mysteries known, and you can choose each day which container you will access.

    Within each dharma you know, you can learn a number of fundamentals as shown on the table above, and may select whichever fundamentals you wish. You can learn a number of higher-level mysteries equal to your void disciple level, but you can only add a mystery of a given level to a dharma that already contains at least two mysteries of the previous level. If you learn all three mysteries in a given path, you are said to have “mastered” that path, and receive special benefits (see below). To learn a mystery, you must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the mystery's level.

    Upon reaching 3rd level, and at every void disciple level after that, you can replace a mystery (within a single dharma) that is at least two levels lower than the highest-level mystery you know, choosing a different mystery of the same level. This may cause you to gain or lose a bonus feat within that dharma. You may swap only a single mystery at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the mystery at the same time that you gains new mysteries known for the level.

    You can invoke fundamental mysteries at will. You can invoke other mysteries once each per day or twice per day if they are not in the highest grade of mysteries you know. You gain an additional use per day of any mystery in a path that you have mastered. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mystery is 10 + the mystery's level + your Wisdom modifier (but see Supernatural Mystery, below). You can learn a mystery more than once. Each time you do, you gain another set of daily uses of that mystery, and its save DC increases by +1. Although you do not prepare spells, you must meditate for 15 minutes each day to regain your use of mysteries just as a sorcerer or bard must meditate to regain use of spell slots. At this time, you also recovery any spent void points and choose which dharma you will assume, which determines which mysteries and bonus feats you can access for the next day.

    Void Use (Ex): Your conscious mastery of the Void allows you to perform feats that others find inexplicable. You gain a number of void points as shown on the table above, which can be spent just like action points. However, void points are not action points, and if your game also uses action points, you must keep track of your void points and action points separately.

    Each day, when you choose your dharma and ready your mysteries for the day, you also regain all of your spent void points (up to your normal maximum).

    Boundless Sight (Su): Attuning herself to the void, a void disciple of 2nd level or higher perceives the elemental void in all living things. She gains the Lifesense feat (LM 28), ignoring prerequisites. If the void disciple herself is a living creature (which is usually the case), she also illuminates the surrounding area to her own sight. Although others cannot see this illumination (unless they have the Lifesense feat, naturally), she can always "see" as if she was casting bright illumination in a 60-foot radius if she is a Medium or smaller creature (the radius of the illumination doubles for each size category she is larger than Medium, as normal for the Lifesense feat). Boundless Sight is a mental sense, not a sight-based sense, and does not interact with other sight-based traits the void disciple may have, such as low-light vision or light sensitivity. It can be used even while blinded.

    In addition to the benefits above, the void disciple can perceive undead, pseudonatural creatures, and outsiders native to the Far Realm if they are within the radius of illumination provided by a living creature. Such creatures appear as blots of darkness that are not illuminated within her lifesight; although she can pinpoint their square, they have total concealment from the void disciple unless she has another means of perceiving them (such as through normal vision, for example).

    Boundless Sight is of no use in locating or observing constructs.

    Ring of the Void (Ex): Disciplining herself to his study, the void disciple pursues understanding of the ring of the void, a teaching that counsels one to set aside wants, desires, and the sense of self. By so doing, the disciple gains the power to choose her own fate. Upon reaching 4th level, you gain a second dharma, complete with its own set of mysteries and bonus feats known. During your daily 15-minute meditation, you must choose which dharma you will assume. You gain access to that dharma’s mysteries and bonus feats, and you lose access to the mysteries, and bonus feats of your inactive dharmas. You also lose any benefits the other dharmas would have provided, including path mastery bonuses.

    You gain an additional dharma at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. No matter how many dharmas you have, only one can be active at a given time.

    Supernatural Mystery (Ex): Upon reaching 5th level, you learn to invoke fundamentals, and mysteries from any path you have mastered, as supernatural abilities rather than spell-like abilities. Your supernatural mysteries have a save DC of 10 + ½ your hit dice + your Wisdom modifier.

    Sense Void (Su): At 6th level, a void disciple learns to reach out with her mind and sense the world around her, exploring the unseen layers of reality most people rarely experience. The void disciple enters a coma-like state and projects her consciousness afar, extending her perceptions to observe far-distance places, people, or things. The void disciple determines the maximum distance she can sense by making a Spellcraft check, with the DC determined using the table below.

    Distance DC
    Line of sight
    5
    Up to 1 mile
    15
    Up to 10 miles
    25
    Up to 100 miles
    35
    Up to 1,000 miles
    45

    "Line of sight" is always measured from the location of the void disciple's physical body, even if an effect (such as Sense Void itself) is currently enabling her to view areas that are not in her direct line of sight. The void disciple may not sense across planar boundaries.

    Sense Void works much like the clairaudience/clairvoyance spell, although it creates a point of perspective instead of a magical sensor. This perspective is not an object and cannot be observed. When sensing, the void disciple places her perspective at a specified location, which must be within range and must be known or obvious to her (although it need not be extremely familiar), or must be adjacent to an object or individual which is known or obvious to her (so, for example, the void disciple could observe "the room on the other side of this door", "the governor of this city", or "my missing house keys", but could not observe "my most dangerous enemy" or "the nearest large treasure"). Once she has selected the locale, she can rotate her perspective in all directions to view the area as desired.

    Repositioning the perspective requires a standard action. The void disciple can reposition her perspective as often as she likes, but the maximum distance she can sense is still constrained by her original Spellcraft check. If her attempt to position or reposition her perspective is unsuccessful for any reason (e.g. the target has been warded against divination, has been polymorphed into a different form, or no longer exists) then her perspective does not move and she is aware that the attempt failed (although she does not learn why). She can try to move her perspective again with her next standard action.

    A void disciple can activate Sense Void as a standard action, twice per day. She may sense for as long as she wishes, but her body is unconscious and helpless until she dismisses the ability. Each level of sensory detail requires both a minimum void disciple level and a minimum number of ranks in the Spellcraft skill to qualify. If the void disciple does not have at least 9 ranks in Spellcraft, she does not gain Sense Void until she acquires the needed ranks.

    Sense Void is a divination (scrying) effect and has the [void] descriptor. It interacts normally with effects that prevent, detect, or fool supernatural divination (scrying) effects. You cannot cast spells or invoke mysteries while Sense Void is active, except as permitted below.

    • At 6th level, a void disciple with at least 9 ranks in Spellcraft can perceive with her physical senses: The void disciple may use her normal senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell) to observe whatever area, person, or thing she directs her attention to. She perceives to the normal limit of her senses as if she were standing where her perspective is located. Tactile and thermal senses are applicable for anything within reach of her perspective. Magically or supernaturally enhanced senses do not function through Sense Void. Local environmental conditions may limit her senses (for example, if the perspective is inside a sealed crate and the void disciple does not have darkvision as an extraordinary ability, then she can't see).
    • At 10th level, the void disciple gains two additional uses per day of Sense Void, and if she has at least 13 ranks in Spellcraft, she can extend magical senses: in addition to the senses above, the void disciple can use detect magic and know greatest enemy as spell-like abilities at will. Using magical senses is difficult; reduce the void disciple's Spellcraft check result by 10 when determining the maximum distance at which she can utilize magical senses (e.g. with a check result of 15, a void disciple could sense with physical senses to a range of one mile and with magical senses within her line of sight).
    • At 14th level, the void disciple gains two additional uses per day of Sense Void, and if she has at least 17 ranks in Spellcraft , she can exercise empathic senses: in addition to the senses above, the void disciple can use discern lies, know opponent, and know vulnerabilities as spell-like abilities at will, and can read emotional states, gaining a +10 circumstance bonus on Sense Motive checks. Using empathic senses is extremely challenging; reduce the void disciple's Spellcraft check result by 20 when determining the maximum distance at which she can utilize empathic senses (e.g. with a check result of 25, a void disciple could sense with physical senses to a range of 10 miles, with magical senses to a range of one mile, and with empathic senses within her line of sight).
    • At 18th level, the void disciple gains two additional uses per day of Sense Void, and if she has at least 21 ranks in Spellcraft, she can exert mental senses: in addition to the senses above, the void disciple can use detect thoughts and probe thoughts as spell-like abilities at will. Using mental senses requires tremendous discipline; reduce the void disciple's Spellcraft check result by 30 when determining the maximum distance at which she can utilize mental senses (e.g. with a check result of 35, a void disciple could sense with physical senses to a range of 100 miles, with magical senses to a range of 10 miles, with empathic senses to a range of one mile, and with mental senses within her line of sight).

    Self/No Self: Upon reaching 11th level, a void disciple can meditate for 5 minutes to regain all spent void points. This ability can be used once per day. You may not spend void points or action points to gain additional daily uses of this ability.




    “What terrible fear causes Man to address the Void as Thou?”


    -- Edna St. Vincent Millay


    Spoiler: VOID DISCIPLE MYSTERIES
    Show
    FUNDAMENTALS

    Arcane Familiarity: Learn aura and duration of magical effects on your person.
    Mystic Reflections: As the spell detect magic.
    Olden Tales: Gain bonus on Knowledge checks
    Reach through the void: Remotely manipulate light objects nearby.
    Read the essence: Gain impressions from an object.
    Touch the emptiness: Your touch makes target [dazed] for one round.
    Witness the untold: While delaying, immediately ready an action and act.

    APPRENTICE PATH MYSTERIES

    Boundless Sight
    1 Detect Life: Detect nearby sources of life.
    2 Darkened Lore: Gain a quick flash of insight.
    3 Eight Directions Awareness: Sense living or concealed things nearby.

    One with All
    1 See Through Lies: Assess capabilities of opponent.
    2 Echoes in the Void: As the detect thoughts spell.
    3 Pry the Truth: Pry the truth out of the living or the dead.

    One with Nothing
    1 Drain Awareness: Steal one target's awareness of its surroundings.
    2 Living Ghost: Erase recent memories of yourself from one creature’s mind.
    3 Without a Trace: Disappear even from magical sight.

    There is no Mind
    1 Void’s Caress: Temporarily remove one condition.
    2 Moment of Clarity: Gain a skill or feat for one minute.
    3 Kharmic Intent: Share your void points with an ally.

    The Way of the Void
    1 Drawing the Void: Gain one void point.
    2 Contemplate the Void: Spend void points more effectively.
    3 Altering the Course: Spend any number of void points on a single roll.

    Touch of the Void
    1 Life Fades: Deal [nonlethal] damage and cause [fatigue].
    2 Flesh Fails: Deal minor ability damage.
    3 Void Strike: Inflict 1d4 negative levels.

    INITIATE PATH MYSTERIES

    Font of Emptiness
    4 There/Not There: Avoid detection by detect spells and [scrying] effects.
    5 Unfettered Soul: Spend more than one void point per round plus gain one free void point per round.
    6 Eyes of the Void Dragon: As the eyes of the oracle spell.

    Glimpse of the Void
    4 Drink of Your Essence: As see through lies, but multiple targets.
    5 Divine the Future: Ask one question about what fate has in store.
    6 Question the Void Dragon: void dragon answers one yes-no question.

    Secrets in the Void
    4 Forgotten Secret: Render one target immune to [divination] or make one fact harder to discover.
    5 Haunting Secrets: Foes are [confused] or [shaken] with terrible secrets as your mind fortifies itself. When the mystery fades, one final secret is left for you.
    6 Unearth Secrets: Learn the answer to one question about an object, question, or person you are familiar with.

    There is no Self
    4 Balance of the Elements: Temporarily remove negative conditions.
    5 Spiritual Presence: Ally gains ability score bonus while you concentrate, and you can spend void to improve ally’s actions.
    6 Void Release: Gain a quick flash of insight.

    Tug Upon the Weave
    4 Shadows Fade: As the spell dispel magic.
    5 Unravel Dweomer: As the spell break enchantment.
    6 Shadows Fade, Greater: As the spell greater dispel magic.

    Turn Fate’s Wheel
    4 Essence of the Void: Target is [paralyzed] while you concentrate.
    5 Void Suppression: Victim must use lowest ability modifier in place of higher, cannot spend void points.
    6 Unbound Essence: Gain a quick flash of insight.

    Whispers of the Void
    4 Ebon Premonition: Predict whether you will accomplish your goal.
    5 Answers Unbidden: When next you fail at a task, the elements grant unexpected aid.
    6 Spun of Myth: Recover old legends from the void.


    MASTER PATH MYSTERIES

    Breath of the Void
    7 Life Fades, Greater: As the mystery life fades, but more potent and affecting more subjects.
    8 Flesh Fails, Greater: As the mystery flesh fails, but more potent and affecting more subjects.
    9 Ephemeral Storm: Targets must save or die, success results in 5d6 damage.

    Embrace of No-Mind
    7 Touch the Void Dragon: Gain an enhancement to your ability scores according to the dominant element in the area.
    8 Clarity of the Void: Gain competence bonus to any roll equal to twice your void total.
    9 Rise from the Ashes: Remove a variety of negative conditions.

    Gaze Upon Emptiness
    7 Truth Revealed: As the spell true seeing, with additional, but possibly misleading, information.
    8 Far Sight: As the spell greater scrying, in conjunction with the mystery truth revealed.
    9 Reflections of Things to Come: Gain limited insight into the future.

    Penumbral Master
    7 Umbral Explosion: Use multiple mysteries simultaneously.
    8 Dark Transfiguration: Exchange daily uses of your mysteries.
    9 Shadow Absorption: Absorb spells and mysteries and harness their power.

    There is no Truth
    7 Maddening Truth: Impart a bit of the truth to all nearby, ruining their psyche and possibly driving them insane.
    8 Truth Beyond Truth: control the threads of fate, protecting yourself but with grave consequences.
    9 Absolute Truth: impart absolute truth to all who are nearby, killing or otherwise harming them.

    There is no World
    7 Thought of Oblivion: Destroy one item or construct.
    8 Unmake the World: Destroy target creature and disintegrate the ashes.
    9 Divide the Soul: You exist in two places at once.

    Unravel the Weave
    7 Draw Closed the Veil: As the spell dismissal, but affected creature is barred from dimensional travel.
    8 Severed from the Stream: Spellcasters must succeed at a caster level check to use magic near you.
    9Visage of the Void: You gain absolute immunity to magical detection.



    Spoiler: NEW VOID DISCIPLE FEATS
    Show
    Extra Void Points [General]
    Your pool of void points is larger than normal.
    Prerequisites: Void Use class feature
    Benefit: The size of your pool of void points increases by 2.
    Special: You may take this feat more than once. Its effects stack. You may not spend void points or action points to gain temporary access to this feat.

    FAVORED MYSTERY [Shadow, Void]
    The mystery you choose becomes easier to cast.
    Prerequisite: Ability to cast mysteries.
    Benefit: Choose a mystery you know. You cast that mystery as a supernatural ability instead of a spell-like ability. If you choose a mystery that you can already cast as a supernatural ability, or if you later gain the ability to cast that mystery as a supernatural ability, you gain an extra use of that mystery per day.
    Special: You can take this feat multiple times. When you take the feat again, you can choose to affect the same mystery or a different one.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-06-20 at 09:27 PM.
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    Innovative new mid-tier classes compatible with 3.x and 3.x Remix: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Looks awesome, nice artwork, and has a feel of someone who is "all and nothing" (which is kind of what I think of when I think of void).

    However I do have some critiques:

    1) Please either type out the name of whatever book you get a feat out of, include a list of the books you used, or type out a feat that way people know where to look (what book is RCS?).

    2) Same with the spells (you don't have to type it out after every on of them, just put a * next to them and assign it to a book title).

    3) I'm not sure about this invisible spell feat. I've never heard of it and I don't know what book CS is. Assuming that it does what it sounds like it does (making all visible effects of a spell invisible but leaving everything else [sounds, smells, tremors, etc] untouched) it might be a bit much right out of the gate. I'd suggest moving it to at least 5th level, maybe even 10th or 15th.

    4) When using Void Sense, can you "sense" everything in an area if that's what your focused on?

    For example: Could you see, hear, etc. EVERYTHING that is going on within a building that is within range (lets assume it's within the 1 mile range) since you can sense and area?

    If that's the case then it could be too powerful. I don't think that was your intent but be aware that anyone's work can be twisted by Min/Maxers.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    I'm guessing RCS is Rokugan Campaign Setting. Invisible spell is from Cityscape.

    Might want to spell it out though- CS can easily be mistaken for Complete Scoundrel.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    1 & 2) Good point. This class draws on some especially obscure sourcebooks too, so it's useful to have a key to the acronyms. I've added a spoilered section at the top of the class listing sources and acronyms.


    3) Invisible spell does exactly what you think it does. However, it's a +0 metamagic feat, so the only thing I'm letting the player get out of is the prerequisite, which is merely to have one other metamagic feat. Further, it's always on, and so less flexible, and the PC doesn't actually gain the feat, merely its benefits, so she can't, for example, use it on spells gained from another class or use it to qualify for other feats requiring one other metamagic feat.

    Moreover, the feat is less effective on the void disciple than on other casters, because most of a void disciple's spells don't have a visible effect anyhow. Its chief impact is to hide the rays created by the various ray spells. In that regard, it's mostly a cosmetic change intended to help me reflavor a lot of the spells whose effects are appropriate for void magic, but whose flavor or appearance didn't mesh.

    However, I'm open to the idea that there may be some loopholes for abuse I haven't considered. Are there any spells on the spell list that you think are made grossly more powerful by having invisible effects?


    4) Sense Void lets you perceive as if you were standing there. However "there" is wherever want it to be within range, provided you know where "there" is, and you can reposition your "self" as often as you want to while sensing. Sense Void is the flagship power of the Void Disciple and the reason that it's an extremely powerful class despite having a very limited spell list. I've actually nerfed it pretty hard by increasing the skill check DCs dramatically (on the original class, the highest DC was 25). However, I did allow the use of some additional spells at higher levels, to tie the void disciple spell list into the ability more closely. Do you think it's gone too far? Should I place some limits on sensing or establish some game elements like warding spells that will prevent sensing?

    Perhaps I could make each progressive level of sensation add +10 to the skill check DC, so that a DC 45 check will get you physical senses out to 1000 miles, or magic senses to 100 miles, or empathic senses to 10 miles, or mental senses to 1 mile? This would mean that mind-reading the BBEG from 101 - 1,000 miles away is a DC 75 check, which, while not impossible for a high-level void disciple, while require the expenditure of more resources in the form of void points, spells, or skill-boosting items.


    Edit: And more critiques, please! That's why I've posted it here. I've made quite a few classes over the past few months, and every single one of them has been greatly improved through feedback from the community. Not one was perfect when first posted, so I'm expecting and hoping for feedback on how to improve the void disciple.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-12 at 09:56 AM.
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    Innovative new mid-tier classes compatible with 3.x and 3.x Remix: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    You could have entered this into the current base class challenge. Oh well. It's interesting, but I have neither the Rokugan Campaign Setting nor the Spell Compendium, so I am less qualified than normal to critique this.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Didn't check right now if you changed things in the OP, but the first things I'd expect to see in the features of such a concept class are:
    - Invisibility
    - Init boost
    - Blind Sense
    - Guarded Mind (mask one's alignment, Scry resistance/immunity, etc)
    - Blind Sight

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    About Void Sense:

    It's not the DC, it's the fact that it seems vague. I mean for instance in our earlier example lets say you want to look into the central room on the 5th floor. You have never been inside this building, nor do you scry on anyone in particular.

    Do you perceive it like the Scry spell (an actual sensor is there and your perceiving it like most people do [they'd have to turn around to see what's going on behind them as if they were standing there])? Can the point from which you perceive move? Do you see out to line of sight or only a specific set range (like within 10 feet of where your perceiving)?

    Using the example above can the point go through doors, walls, and floors? Can you essentially "explore" the entire complex without having to go in there? Can the point be seen (like a scrying sensor)? Can someone detect it and realize someones looking ( great if your character is a voyeur )?

    If your looking into an area like an auditorium, do you first show up in the center of the area, by the entrance, or do you have to specifically state where it pops up (difficult if you've never been inside)?

    Now onto other things:

    One thing I've noticed about these elemental classes is that most seem to give increased sensory capabilities (things like blind sense, tremor sense, dark vision, and low light vision). The Void Disciple doesn't.

    I mean Sense Void would seem to fill that except that for the fact that you go into a coma like state and are helpless. So I'd give them blindsight or dark vision since without some way of perceiving in the dark, Sense Void takes a hit to it's usefulness (I'm assuming spells that give you stuff like dark vision fall under "magical senses" and therefore have to wait a bit before being able to be used reliably).

    If you wanted to give it something original, you could take a look in the Expanded Psionics Handbook has a power that lets you sort of "feel" everything within a certain area around you. You could write it up like this:

    Sight of the Void/Void Sight (I'm not good with names ):

    Your study of nothingness has progressed to your senses. You can feel the void out to such and such range (I'd start at like 5 or 10 feet and go from there). This lets you tell when there is "something" and "nothing" in a particular space. This negates many of the penalties of blindness and darkness. You suffer no reduction in speed, and you can tell if a creature is within a space. You can only tell the shape of objects while using this and cannot perceive fine features.

    Think of it like looking at the world if someone drew it with an etch a sketch, outlines and most details can be perceived, but not things like writing and color. However things such as painting on the wall couldn't be perceived, and writing or carving would only be perceived if it was either carved in deep or raised high.

    Heck you could have it so that they'd have to "turn off" their sight to be able to use this (inviting the void into their eyes or something like that) and can be used at will.

    On Invisible Spell:

    The only one of the top of my head would be Sphere of Ultimate Destruction since it requires people to see it to have a chance against it and since it stays for a couple rounds (I'd think that it would have some sort of effect on the environment).

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Didn't check right now if you changed things in the OP, but the first things I'd expect to see in the features of such a concept class are:
    - Invisibility
    - Init boost
    - Blind Sense
    - Guarded Mind (mask one's alignment, Scry resistance/immunity, etc)
    - Blind Sight
    1. Invisibility is an air power, and belongs to the storm lord. However, not being there is definitely a void power, which is why blink is on the list. I'd reluctantly taken out etherealness, swift etherealness, and ethereal jaunt when paring down the spell list. Since you also agree that we need MOAR ELUSIVENESS I'll make some hard decisions and find room to put those spells back in.
    2. Why does a void disciple have quick reflexes?
    3. Blindsense/blindsight is something I'm hearing from both of you. I'm not sure how to make it fit yet, but I'll find a way.
    4. Guarded mind: another good point. I had also scrubbed several spells that support this theme when trimming the spell list. I'll edit room for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by periscope69 View Post
    About Void Sense...

    Do you perceive like the Scry spell?
    Can the point from which you perceive move?
    Do you see out to line of sight?
    Can the point go through doors, walls, and floors?
    Can you essentially "explore" an entire complex without having to go in?
    Can the point be seen (like a scrying sensor)?
    Can someone detect it and realize someone's looking?
    Do you have to specifically state where it pops up?
    In order, yes, yes as a standard action, yes, yes as a standard action, yes, no, no not without magic, and yes but if you get it wrong you can reposition as a standard action. I've added several paragraphs of additional detail to the ability to more clearly define how it works and what it can and cannot do, and how it can be defended against.

    Make no mistake, however. Sense Void is really really strong - with it the void disciple is hands-down the best diviner in the game.

    ...stuff about how void disciple needs MOAR ESP...

    Without some way of perceiving in the dark, Sense Void takes a hit to its usefulness (I'm assuming spells that give you stuff like dark vision fall under "magical senses" and therefore have to wait a bit before being able to be used reliably).
    Hehehe ok, you and nonsi both want MOAR ESP! I'll add more.

    I'll hack into that psionic power and see what I can think of. I'm also considering creating a feat that would expend a use of Sense Void for defensive combat benefits, something that would be of interest to a void disciple gish (and yes, there's an elemental warrior PrC coming soon for these classes ).

    Of interest: darkvision and similar spells specifically will not work with Sense Void, ever. There are some limits, after all.

    On Invisible Spell:

    The only one of the top of my head would be Sphere of Ultimate Destruction since it requires people to see it to have a chance against it and since it stays for a couple rounds (I'd think that it would have some sort of effect on the environment).
    I can live with that.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-13 at 12:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Looks very nice. Just 2 comments.
    1: Are you sure it should be Int based? It seems like it should fit Wis much more.
    2: Spell list is kind of weird and limited. Not very many useful spells, especially at low levels. I would add some kind of Advanced Learning, since the void encompasses everything right? I mean seriously, after looking at that picture of the WoWlock, who doesn't want to shoot void lightning?

    All in all, I like this the best of your elemental casters. Nice work.
    Last edited by Tinydwarfman; 2010-07-13 at 05:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    1. Blindsense/blindsight is something I'm hearing from both of you. I'm not sure how to make it fit yet, but I'll find a way.


    Hehehe ok, you and nonsi both want MOAR ESP! I'll add more.

    I'll hack into that psionic power and see what I can think of. I'm also considering creating a feat that would expend a use of Sense Void for defensive combat benefits, something that would be of interest to a void disciple gish (and yes, there's an elemental warrior PrC coming soon for these classes ).

    Of interest: darkvision and similar spells specifically will not work with Sense Void, ever. There are some limits, after all. :smallbiggrin
    You could just give him darkvision or Blindsight and say it's from either mastery of the void or exposure to the void (with the Blindsight, don't run it off a specific sense, just that they "Know" where they are and where everything else is in the range, have it be supernatural and therefore subject to AMF's).

    There was a feat I saw that made it so that every time a specific opponent missed you, they took a penalty to attack roles (to a max of -5) but if they did hit you it reset. It also ended with the encounter (if you fought them again later they wouldn't start off with a penalty).

    You could have the defense feat run like that but add to the penalty with Void uses (to a max of -10).

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Added: additional swift etherealness, ethereal jaunt, nondetection, and the spell immunity series. Dropped several spells that were extremely specialized and didn't quite suite the theme.

    Added: Boundless Sight, a form of supernatural awareness that borrows the mechanics of the Lifesense feat.

    Added: Advanced Learning, with some extra tweaks to ensure that the acquired spells acquire a void flavoring and are compatible with void disciple class features.


    Opinions?



    Traditionally, Wisdom as a casting attribute is reserved for divine casters. Since the shugenja already solidly fills the role of a divine elemental caster, I'm trying to avoid that particular piece of intellectual real estate.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-15 at 09:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Humm, I completely forgot about lifesense, fits very nicely good job!

    Have to review everything else. Keep up the good work.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Traditionally, Wisdom as a casting attribute is reserved for divine casters. Since the shugenja already solidly fills the role of a divine elemental caster, I'm trying to avoid that particular piece of intellectual real estate.
    So what if I were to tell you that the Shugenja runs off of Charisma?

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Then I would cry a little, sigh deeply, and add rules for a Wisdom-based variant to the section on class variants I've already set aside for this purpose.

    It's coming right up once I finish my cry.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Three bonus feats at first level seems like a lot.

    I understand that Invisible Spell and Eschew Materials are mostly flavor over anything, but still. 3 feats is a lot.

    Free Silent and Still Spell at level 4 is also pretty insane.

    You should stipulate that Invisible Spell, Silent Spell, and Still Spell all don't count as metamagic feats. Otherwise, this class becomes a favorite for Arcane Thesis abuse.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Stipulations have been added.

    It does seem like a lot, but my perspective was:
    1. Eschew Materials is literally a feat that replaces a 5gp item. Many DMs ignore material components altogether. This feat is fluffier than Endurance.
    2. In Oriental Adventures Rokugan, Void Use is actually a buy-one, get-one-free feat. Every human is required to take an Ancestor feat, but can instead choose Void Use. If you take Void Use, you get an Ancestor feat with it for free.
    3. Invisible Spell is actually rather good.


    Still and Silent are likewise generally non-stellar feats.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    If nothing else, automatic still spells for all spells gives the Void Disciple a better version of the "Armored Mage: All" ability.

    Since ASF applies only to spells with somatic components, stilling all your spells lets you wear clockwork armor and dual-wield tower shields without penalty.

    And the strength of them is debatable, but you're essentially giving two epic bonus feats (Automatic Still & Silent spell) at 4th level, and then again at 8th and 14th level.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Hmm, I hadn't considered the avoidance of ASF. The void disciple isn't proficient with armor, and loses the benefit of mage armor and Wis to AC if he wears armor, but a gish character would be rocking it in mountain plate by level 5 if he really wanted to...that's not what I intended. How signficant do you think it is? A fighter 1/void disciple 5 is ready for most gish classes, and could wear plate mail and a heavy shield, gaining +11 AC w/12 Dex. Alternately, a fighter 1/void disciple 5 with mage armor and shield, and a 12 Dex and 12 Wis, would have +10 AC...although only +6 if he has no time to get his shield up.

    It's good defense...so is that a strength that makes the void disciple more versatile, or an imbalance that makes it overpowered?
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    I think it's a pretty powerful class as it is. Keep in mind that Still Spell is better than Armored Mage, though. You also can use it in grapples, and combined with silent spell, unless you have to use an expensive material component, nobody can identify what spells are being cast. Especially since the ones with visible effects are... well, invisible.

    If nothing else, you need to split those abilities up and move them further back. Perhaps at 1st level you get Eschew Materials, at 4th you get Invisible Spell, at 8th you get Still Spell, and at 12th you get Silent Spell or somesuch.

    It's just too front-loaded right now.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Alrighty, slower progression it is then. Spread it out over 12 levels per your recommendation. Any other suggestions, perhaps with the spell list?
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Higher levels have a nice balance of spells, but low levels, especially 1 and 2, have very few spells that are regularly useful. Low level casters should still be able to contribute effectively in combat.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Swapped in ray of enfeeblement at 1st level. You think backbiter, ray of enfeeblement, and daze monster (learned at 1st level instead of 2nd) is enough to get by until ray of weakness, shadow spray, and vertigo come on line at 4th level? If not, can you suggest any combat spells that would be thematically appropriate?
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    This is pretty nifty; I'm a big fan of RCS, so I liked seeing this.

    One question, though. The Sense Void says you can cast X spell "at will" - is that only while using Sense Void?
    Drew

    This is for everyone who squints hard at stuff in the hope they'll spontaneously develop telekinesis.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Correct, it's only while using Sense Void, and it doesn't consume any of your spell slots. Really you aren't casting the spell at all, you're just perceiving the Void in your target and deducing their qualities and attributes, but the spellcasting mechanic seems to be the most straightforward method of representing this in the game. Compare to some of the transformational spells in Spell Compendium that let you use a small menu of low-level spells at while while you're transformed.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    As clarification: The original class let you cast spell while using Sense Void, by RAW. Can you still do that?

    (it was one of the reasons that the class was considered either broken or terrible.)

    Also, any reason why you can't bestow Epic feats upon yourself or party members?
    Last edited by Tinydwarfman; 2010-07-21 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    My intent was that you could not. I'll add that in explicitly.

    As written, you could bestow Epic feats. My first thought was, "you get the feat for one minute, how much harm could it do?" But this is D&D. I'd better sit down and review the epic feats.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    My intent was that you could not. I'll add that in explicitly.

    As written, you could bestow Epic feats. My first thought was, "you get the feat for one minute, how much harm could it do?" But this is D&D. I'd better sit down and review the epic feats.
    The only ones that should cause problems are the magic ones of course. Auto-Quicken for example, would be really bad/good.
    Last edited by Tinydwarfman; 2010-07-24 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    You know, I think I'd be ok with it if the epic feats for casters and noncasters were comparable, but as-is, it just exacerbates an already severe balance problem. I'll restrict the granting of epic feats to epic void disciples.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    You know, I think I'd be ok with it if the epic feats for casters and noncasters were comparable, but as-is, it just exacerbates an already severe balance problem. I'll restrict the granting of epic feats to epic void disciples.
    Nooo, just ban the casting feats! I love giving my melee Dire Charge, or the archer Distant Shot.

    But seriously, just fluff it as the Void Disciple not being able to grant magical power or something.

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Ok, the DM must now specifically approve an epic feat for use with Moment of Clarity, and can extend or retract that permission at any time. This pushes the ability (ever so slightly) in the direction of being more story-oriented, and allows the player and DM to work together in deciding what is or is not balanced for the game at a particular point.
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