I Need A Charisma mechanic

[Melayl]

Wis = will makes sense because that's how it works in real life. The mature adult has a lot more will power then the little kid. Adults, by age alone, have a wisdom bonus over kids.

I'd have to disagree with this one. Yes, adults generally have more wisdom than children. Willpower, however, is something else. My own children, for example, are at least as stubborn as I am (and that's saying a lot). I've met many children with more willpower than their parents (every one of them spoiled rotten...). I've also met a lot of very weak-willed adults (who were, otherwise, quite wise).

Age and wisdom do not automatically equal willpower.

[Peregrine]

A character doesn't behave like Elan thanks to any particular charisma score, only because they have low wisdom and low intelligence.

In reality, Elan's behaviour is only tolerated because of his high charisma -- a lower-charisma character who acted that way would be perceived as incredibly annoying, whereas in Elan's case that same behaviour comes across as mildly endearing (at least, to some characters).

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying... so why does it still feel like you're disagreeing with me?

(If it's because you think I'm saying that "Elan's annoying behaviour is because of his high Cha" or "Elan is representative of all high Cha characters", I'm not. Two characters with identical scores, even identical alignments, may still be very different. Elan just makes a good example of a high-Cha character, especially since I'm looking for an example of a character who, to me anyway, illustrates why Charisma should not be the [default] driving stat behind Will saves.)

Ooh, another way to sum it up: Low Wisdom = naive. Naive = easily taken in by deception, illusion... and mind-bending magic.

[For Valor]

Ooh, another way to sum it up: Low Wisdom = naive. Naive = easily taken in by deception, illusion... and mind-bending magic.

I believe mind-bending magic is the biggest concern in this argument. A strong force of personality is what people would use to combat mind-bending. Someone here said that Wis=defense willpower and Cha=offensive willpower, and I think that seems to sum it up quite nicely.

On the subject of crunch...

Str: Damage, and physical to-hit (2)
Dex: Rfx, Init, ranged to-hit (3)
Con: HP, Fort (2)
Int: Skill points (1)
Wis: Will save (1)
Cha: Nil (0)

Each of the physical stats get 2 benefits, and it looks like the mental stats should get 1. For the sake of crunch, how does moving Will saves to Cha and moving Initiative to Wis sound? My only qualm is that Wisdom will stay prioritized in the future, since items can boost saves and emulate low skill points in, but can't really cover for initiative... speaking of which, maybe there should be initiative-boosting items...

[Mulletmanalive]

In reality, Elan's behaviour is only tolerated because of his high charisma -- a lower-charisma character who acted that way would be perceived as incredibly annoying, whereas in Elan's case that same behaviour comes across as mildly endearing (at least, to some characters).

So...Belkar then?

I'd posit that a lot of folks with a high charisma score come off as nice people, at least while they're steamrolling your lower charisma self with their personality. It's later that you damn his eyes!

[imp_fireball]

are at least as stubborn as I am

That's not will power dude, that's emotion. If you hit them upside the head, would they cry? Yes they would. If your wife hit you upside the head, would you cry? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not one to judge. Your kids are probably more likely to cry then you though, because they have less will power - as in, control over their own thoughts and actions and emotions. That's why compulsion spells require a will save, because it's attempting to override your own control over your thoughts and actions and emotions.

It's later that you damn his eyes!

True. Once you get to know someone, their charisma doesn't help as much against you. Unless you're trying to hold a contest of who can humiliate the other the most.

I've also met a lot of very weak-willed adults (who were, otherwise, quite wise).

You'd have to define 'weak willed' for me. If by that, you mean "I don't wanna get up and go for a jog today", that's probably a result of poor diet and adaptation to lazy living conditions (and partly constitution too). Even people with high will saves will be prone to do what they feel like - it's human.

People with high will saves can get something done if they really wanna do it though. For high charisma low-will people, that's heroic surge - or it's the fact that the person just seems like he has high charisma because he's being presented in the format that the medium feels is digestible for an audience - ie. Ash Ketchum from the poke'mon cartoon anime speaks really loudly is always incredibly enthusiastic and endearing - this translates to high charisma but compared to other characters, he doesn't accomplish much. The anime presents him as a high charismatic but plot-wise his charisma is actually low (the poke'mon are always teasing him; Charizard specifically burns him whenever it can). It's just the format of presentation.

Field commanders would, in my opinion, have to have a good balance of all three mental stats -- and Cha would be a good candidate for the lowest.

Exactly - field commanders are obeyed out of logic, not because they can lead followers. They don't need the leadership feat - merely tactical knowledge and the willingness to make tough decisions (which requires wisdom to perceive; wisdom helps in perceiving right and wrong, which adults generally have an easier time with than children, but it no way relates to alignment).

The technicians who obey the field commanders use their high Int to carry out said orders in the most efficient way possible. The assistants sketch out the most effective plans, which also require Int.
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As for the yoga master comparison - the yoga master has wisdom. They use it to supplement their willingness to endure pain, demonstrate patience, etc.

A strong force of personality is what people would use to combat mind-bending.

Um... I don't think so. Usually, the strong force of personality wins because the author doesn't like to kill off those characters that they 'worked harder' on creating.

speaking of which, maybe there should be initiative-boosting items...

There's already Dex boosting items.

Also, seeing as AC isn't really all that valuable later on, Dex should still apply to 'offensive intiative checks' - that is checks where you gain the surprise round and then roll initiative afterwards. This helps out rogues a fair bit since they don't usually buffer wisdom and aren't always inclined to dump charisma due to the fact that feigning requires bluff.

Wisdom helps mostly in reacting to changes and stimuli - so defensive initiative checks.

If wisdom will saves are 'defensive' (something I don't wanna agree on) that pretty much means will saves period since 'offensive will' would be casting mind magic and telepathy (which already uses charisma if you're a psion who took the telepathy discipline) and applying charisma to it - and perhaps in rare cases where creatures make opposed will saves.

[Zeta Kai]

That's not will power dude, that's emotion. If you hit them upside the head, would they cry? Yes they would. If your wife hit you upside the head, would you cry? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not one to judge. Your kids are probably more likely to cry then you though, because they have less will power - as in, control over their own thoughts and actions and emotions. That's why compulsion spells require a will save, because it's attempting to override your own control over your thoughts and actions and emotions.

Your perseverance on this issue is certainly a display of willpower. I doubt the game's designers themselves are as invested in the way things are as you seem to be. Why can't you entertain the notion of there being another way of doing things?

[imp_fireball]

Your perseverance on this issue is certainly a display of willpower. I doubt the game's designers themselves are as invested in the way things are as you seem to be. Why can't you entertain the notion of there being another way of doing things?

Because you haven't given me a good reason why I should. Will is a very broad category of the mind - to will something is to express conscious decision. Will in itself is very general.

Will power is something else entirely. Just because charisma means you can assert your will on others does not mean that will is strong - you just know how to transmit it well.

My inability to convince people on this issue reflects my low charisma - hence the only people who can realize it are those who have thought about and figured it out themselves.

[Temotei]

My inability to convince people on this issue reflects my low charisma - hence the only people who can realize it are those who have thought about and figured it out themselves.

That or, you know, they disagree. People can disagree and be right at the same time you're right or wrong.

I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but, just in case.

[Dust]

SHAZAM!

Knew I was keeping that in my favorites for some reason. Hope that solves your issue, mate!

[imp_fireball]

Those rules also have something about haggling. Attempting to buy low would be diplomacy, but I think for people functioning as salesmen trying to sell high, they'd be using intimidate, either to combat hagglers or just convince in general.

Note that a car salemen only seems friendly, but he actually is there to make you feel uncomfortable until you do what he wants. It's effectively intimidation.

Selling high with diplomacy would be PR - you use it to represent your company at a seminar or whatever. This is all to increase your reputation whereas intimidate affects it negatively, and that's why car salesmen usually work commission and not corporate side or whatever.

[Melayl]

That's not will power dude, that's emotion. If you hit them upside the head, would they cry? Yes they would. If your wife hit you upside the head, would you cry? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not one to judge. Your kids are probably more likely to cry then you though, because they have less will power - as in, control over their own thoughts and actions and emotions. That's why compulsion spells require a will save, because it's attempting to override your own control over your thoughts and actions and emotions.

Stubbornness is not in any way related to being emotional. Many highly emotional people are also highly flighty and lack any sense of willpower.

A child will cry when hit because: 1) it hurts, and their history of dealing with pain is usually much less than an adult's, so their pain tolerance is usually less 2) they are not as mentally or emotionally developed as adults are, and so will react to many negative encounters with tears.

Beyond that, relating willpower to not crying after being hit is rather off the mark. How, in any way, do they relate?

You'd have to define 'weak willed' for me. If by that, you mean "I don't wanna get up and go for a jog today", that's probably a result of poor diet and adaptation to lazy living conditions (and partly constitution too). Even people with high will saves will be prone to do what they feel like - it's human.

It can be exactly that, especially if they are supposed to be getting up and running (part of a team, part of a new resolution, etc). That would not be related to diet or living conditions, or constitution at all. It can be doing anything they don't want to do, or not doing something they do want to do. As examples:

Spoiler

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As a nurse, I've taken care of many patients like the following two:

Patient A is a 65 year old farmwife who had a total knee replacement the previous day. She is 5' 4" and weighs 100 pounds. Even though her pain scale level is a 7 (10 being the worst), she dutifully gets up for physical therapy and walks well, even though it makes her pain worse, because she knows she should.

Patient B is a 65 year old former college professor who also had a total knee replacement the previous day. He is 6' 2" and weighs 225 pounds and is in good overall physical shape. His pain scale level is also a 7, but he does not get up for physical therapy because he does not want his pain to increase. He knows that he must get up if he wishes to recover, but he doesn't want to, so he doesn't.

I don't know that any of this will change your mind, and quite frankly it doesn't matter. I just needed to speak my mind about those two points.

[For Valor]

@imp_fireball concerning strong personality:

Imagine, if you will, that a man sits in his meditation room and sends his thoughts probing across the globe. When he finds someone he wants to control, he uses his mind-control tactics.

According to D&D, Charisma is force of personality and Wisdom is how well one is attuned to the world. In a battle of pure mental energy, force of personality is a better weapon than being attuned. Charisma is your raw power, and D&D mechanics even reinforce that by associating everything to do with personal magic (which comes from yourself. It is your personal power).

Therefore, when someone tries to take over your mind, you use Charisma to fend them off. That "main character" bullsh*t is about as valid as "it's a fantasy game".

Honestly.

And I'm going to ignore that strawman you made about Init-boosting items.

[imp_fireball]

Alright, 'personality power' is related to charisma because usually the person already has the power and all they need to do is convince it to work for them. It's not 'them' or 'their soul' that they are projecting. Their soul is all three of their mental stats plus their actual role played personality and nothing more (and maybe if using a soul to empower something it probably considers ECL).

Many highly emotional people are also highly flighty and lack any sense of willpower.

There is a very wide range of emotions. Stubborness is an emotion, sorry.

In a battle of pure mental energy, force of personality is a better weapon than being attuned.

Depends on what the rules say. Sometimes 'pure mental energy' is raw brain power, hence Int. Sometimes it's the ability to 'not lose it', hence Wis. Sometimes it's 'force of personality', hence Cha.

Your arguments are pretty strawman too, dude. I mean really. Your just wrapping words into supposed synonyms as if 'force of personality' and 'will power' were the same thing.

Did you know that charisma is a human quality that has hardly been studied? Wikipedia refers to it as a supernatural way with people.

Therefore, when someone tries to take over your mind, you use Charisma to fend them off. That "main character" bullsh*t is about as valid as "it's a fantasy game".

Someone who tries to take over your mind has already gotten into your mind (because they know how to do it; otherwise they wouldn't have done it (or they would have been interrupted by an effect like 'mind blank'). Now, they are warping your reality around you. How do you grow accustomed to this? By saying 'stop it!' really loud? Because that's what charisma is.

For wisdom, you are actually fighting through the pain and not trying to humiliate whoever is attacking you.

[Kuma Kode]

There is a very wide range of emotions. Stubborness is an emotion, sorry.

Yeeeaaahhh, no. I'm gonna have to disagree there. Stubbornness is a character trait. Stubborn is an emotion in the same way curly is a hair color.

[imp_fireball]

Yeeeaaahhh, no. I'm gonna have to disagree there. Stubbornness is a character trait. Stubborn is an emotion in the same way curly is a hair color.

No, it's an emotion brought on by a trait. Talk to a psychologist. The state of being stubborn is an emotional state. Just like curly hair is a hair state. Just like colored items can have texture that can be smoothed, stretched or made coarser.

I know that kidnergarten taught you that the human brain is as easy as pie to figure out and popular psychiatry reinforced this with easy to understand fictional characters, but emotions are actually more complex then happy and sad. There are what we call 'emotional layers'. Stubborn factors into a different layer then 'happy or sad'. It tends to remain until people casually begin referring to it as a 'trait'. And besides, a 'trait' just describes a person. It's not something that they were branded with at birth like a wisdom score is (note I'm not necessarily referring to D&D's traits).

The less perceptive among us, may not fully perceive every emotion that we are feeling except the most surface ones (ever heard of 'bottled up' emotions?).

Therefore, when someone tries to take over your mind, you use Charisma to fend them off. That "main character" bullsh*t is about as valid as "it's a fantasy game".

I think the main source of confusion here is that people tend to believe that someone attacking you mentally is like them having a conversation with you in the recesses of your mind. It could be, but I consider it more like stabbing pain than an actual conversation. They are trying to override your senses - not just say hello.

[For Valor]

I think the main source of confusion here is that people tend to believe that someone attacking you mentally is like them having a conversation with you in the recesses of your mind. It could be, but I consider it more like stabbing pain than an actual conversation. They are trying to override your senses - not just say hello.

And here's where we get to the point when I ask you, "So, you know what mind control feels like?" and you say "No". All of a sudden, realism is thrown out the window, and Charisma is viable for Will Saves!!!

Unless you've got a counter-argument to my "Mind control doesn't exist in real life" argument, I think the best strategy is to now award Will Saves to Charisma and translate either Rfx Saves or Init to Wisdom. Of course, the realism of both those decisions also bothers me...

[Peregrine]

And here's where we get to the point when I ask you, "So, you know what mind control feels like?" and you say "No". All of a sudden, realism is thrown out the window, and Charisma is viable for Will Saves!!!

Unless you've got a counter-argument to my "Mind control doesn't exist in real life" argument [snip]

Sure it does, as brainwashing and other forms. But unless someone can tell us how real techniques to resist such things best map to D&D, your point stands: the "best" ability score is what makes the most sense to each of us within our individually-constructed game concepts.

Mine remains Wisdom, because I see it as mental groundedness and resilience. I see using Charisma instead as saying "the best defence is a good offence" -- a valid perspective, and (as I said) eminently suitable for a feat, but the default defence is still "a good defence".

[For Valor]

Sure it does, as brainwashing and other forms. But unless someone can tell us how real techniques to resist such things best map to D&D, your point stands: the "best" ability score is what makes the most sense to each of us within our individually-constructed game concepts.

Mine remains Wisdom, because I see it as mental groundedness and resilience. I see using Charisma instead as saying "the best defence is a good offence" -- a valid perspective, and (as I said) eminently suitable for a feat, but the default defence is still "a good defence".

Alright, so you've decided that personal opinion is what is going to direct you. Now, as nice as that is, it's not as important as crunch.

My point was that you can't say what mental attribute is best for fighting mental control, so no one should argue about it. The only other thing to be concerned about, in the end, is the crunch. And the crunch says that Charisma is too weak.

[zugschef]

dobu and me have designed a new skill system using skill groups, which makes every attribute a potential skill point source. this actually takes intelligence and charisma to the same level.

(you can still housrule wis and cha to will, dex and int to ref and str and con to fort, if you like...)

[Peregrine]

Alright, so you've decided that personal opinion is what is going to direct you. Now, as nice as that is, it's not as important as crunch.

Beg to differ. If crunch doesn't match up to expectations, it won't feel "right" or "realistic"*, and players will call the game designers on it. Which this thread ought to amply demonstrate!

* As these forums have taught me, it's not "realism", it's "verisimilitude".

I don't believe that the crunch of Charisma is really as useless as it's made out to be. It's actually comparable to Strength in some ways; useful for certain character classes, safe dump stat otherwise. (Though Charisma is huge when matching stats to roleplaying; Strength is not.) And nobody complains about the uselessness of Strength!

For this reason, I feel the list you posted earlier is misleading; physical attack/damage might look important, but it just isn't for a lot of characters. Let's try a more comprehensive table -- just for the core rules, mind you!

{table=head]Benefit|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha
Attacks|Melee, grapple|Ranged|--|--|--|--
Damage|Melee, some ranged|--|--|--|--|--
AC|No|Yes|No|Duelist only|Monk only|Incorporeal creatures
Saves|--|Ref|Fort|--|Will|--
Points|--|--|HP|Skill points|--|--
Skills|3|9|1|8|6|8
Ability checks|breaking, bull rush, overrun, trip|vs. overrun, vs. trip|vs. various hazards|spot scrying sensor, talk to ettin, vs. contact other plane, vs. maze|failed Decipher Script, failed scroll use, control subjective gravity, identify poison, remember lycanthropy|control golem, various planar binding aspects, resist corporeal instability, vs. all charms, vs. enthrall
Feats|7|17|0|5|2|1
Spells|--|--|--|Wiz|Clr, Drd, Pal, Rgr|Sor, Brd
Features|--|--|Rage|--|monk AC, quivering palm|divine grace, lay on hands, suggestion, smite evil, turn undead, wild empathy
Special attacks|Several|Few|Heaps|None|Few|Heaps
Misc|Encumbrance|Initiative|--|--|--|--
Roleplaying|Low|Low|Low|Very high|High|Very high[/table]

The "Roleplaying" line indicates an ability score's importance to how a character is roleplayed. Naturally this is highly subjective and based on my personal experience. But I think most people would agree that all the mental ability scores are important here and the physical ability scores are not.

The "Feats" line gives a tally of feats that either have an ability score as a prerequisite, or chiefly benefit from that score. It should be noted that almost every feat with such a dependency is for combat use.

This table (and the reading that went into making it) tells me three things.

One, Charisma is definitely underrated -- who remembers that you can make a Charisma check to resist out-of-the-ordinary commands when charmed? That's awesome!

Two, Charisma could still do with some shoring up. There are a lot of effects where your arguments about force of will are spot on: several things should use a Charisma check instead of a Will save. (Resisting intelligent items' Ego, for instance.)

And three, Wisdom cannot afford to lose Will saves, or it will become the new Charisma. One party member will take responsibility for the Wis skills, some characters will depend on it for spells or class features, and everyone else will dump it with glee.

[For Valor]

On Your Points:
One, Charisma is rated pretty much where it deserves to be. Its use outside of spellcasting is situational at best. Honestly, golem control and resisting corporeal instability?

Two, you agree with my argument.. 'k

Three is a point I understand. However, the arguments given acknowledge that point and look towards putting Wis in Initiative or Rfx. I'm more of a fan of Initiative myself...

...however, I'm starting to lean towards action points now. I'm thinking about giving each tier of balance a certain number of action points per day, and adding Charisma to that number.