Why Pun-Pun Doesn't Work

[OracleofWuffing]

In which book does the "Pazuzu is especially chummy with tempting paladins" line appear? I wanna see if I can end-run around the rules with a guy named Paladin.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Fiendish Codex I, it is in his monster entry

[hamishspence]

Fiendish Codex 1 (though I think it also appeared in the Dragon article on Pazuzu)

In FC1:

Pazuzu particularly enjoys corrupting paladins and takes pains to ensure that the first time he helps a paladin, no evil comes as a result of his assistance, hoping to encourage the paladin to call on him again. Aid granted by Pazuzu is typically granted in the manner easiest for the demon prince to manifest, often in the form of his wish spell-like ability.

[OracleofWuffing]

Ah, yes, I see, thank you. I was going off a web enhancement somewhere that didn't have anything on paladins. Well, the lack of capitalization looks like I couldn't do the name trick, but I think I could get off just saying my character is a paladin in the same way Miko is a samurai or something.

[Yuki Akuma]

Pun-Pun is utterly impossible outside of Forgotten Realms.

The Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability only works on Scaled Ones native to Abeir-Toril. If the kobold is from, say, Oerth... tough luck, it doesn't work.

[hamishspence]

Hence "ask Pazuzu to cast Wish on you to turn you into a Scaled One native to Toril"

This based on the assumption that there's only one Abyss, that serves all the worlds that have "The Abyss" in their planar cosmology.

[Gametime]

Hence "ask Pazuzu to cast Wish on you to turn you into a Scaled One native to Toril"

And assuming that that's a valid use of Wish, and that your game's multiverse includes Toril. Plenty of settings just assume the one Material Plane exists, which would presumably make Toril-nativity shenanigans impossible.

At this point, though, it's less about what the rules say you can do and more about what the rules don't specifically exclude.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure if the Abyss and the Demon Princes actually exist in Eberron- it suggests using Demon Princes as Rakshasa Rajahs- so if you're playing an Eberron game, there may be no Pazuzu to contact (or he might be imprisoned and unable to answer the call).

[OracleofWuffing]

(or he might be imprisoned and unable to answer the call).

Nope, it says right there he always uses Sense Motive to try to determine whether the one who calls him is trying to entrap him.

For those who are not HTML6 compliant yet, yes, this post is a joke.

[Stompy]

Answering the OP concerns:

That's funny...where's Pazuzu? Why isn't he answering your summons, gosh darnit? You don't have all day.

Pazuzu, is well, not around anymore. Someone found the Pun Pun trick before you, ascended to godhood, then, just so no one could challenge him, viciously murdered Pazuzu until he turned into dust and vapor. Then the dust and vapor were viciously murdered into nothingness. Then Pun Pun ate the history behind Pazuzu, just so his iron grasp on 3.5 could not be challenged, ever. You don't want to know what happened to the Sarrukhs.

...you may not have all day, but Pun Pun does. And he knows that you are trying to take his power.

[The Big Dice]

At this point, though, it's less about what the rules say you can do and more about what the rules don't specifically exclude.

What the rules don't exclude is a scary, scary place to go.

After all, nowhere in the rules does it say that Kobolds can't fly. Which means flying Pun-Pun is perfectly legal without him having to do anything.

Also, the stat boosting trick for Pun-Pun takes time. That's when he's vulnerable. And because you're dealing wih finite numbers at every step of the way, to get infinite stats means taking an infinitely long time doing it.

Even with time loop shenanigans, infinitly long times are, well, they last for infinity. Better to settle for arbitrarily high numbers instead. And that's assuming Pazuzu hasn't simply trapped your hapless Kobold in a dream world that resembles the real one in every detail. Except for the part where you're playing Pun-Pun instead of being unconcious in a cave somewhere.

[DragoonWraith]

A. The rules do specify that Kobolds cannot fly.

B. Pun-Pun does not rely on assuming the absence of a rule to the contrary is the same as a rule to the opposite. Pazuzu is not important, the Candle of Invocation is not important, just the ability to get Manipulate Form and be able to use it on yourself. There are lots of ways to do it.

At some point, Pun Pun becomes truly unstoppable - his actual numbers cease to be important, because he can grant himself any ability imaginable as a Free action that can be taken out of turn. It is literally impossible for anything to happen that he doesn't like. It's impossible for anything to have happened that he doesn't like, for that matter...

[Gametime]

What the rules don't exclude is a scary, scary place to go.

I couldn't agree more.

Also, the stat boosting trick for Pun-Pun takes time. That's when he's vulnerable. And because you're dealing wih finite numbers at every step of the way, to get infinite stats means taking an infinitely long time doing it.

I am not clear on the means, but Doc Roc is quite the authority on the subject and he claims that Pun-Pun can achieve basically absolute power in something like one round.

Again, I really don't know how it works, and it's possible I'm misrepresenting the facts, but everything I've seen of Pun-Pun leads me to believe that he's even more terrifyingly powerful than the standard observer can glean from a cursory glance.

Even with time loop shenanigans, infinitly long times are, well, they last for infinity. Better to settle for arbitrarily high numbers instead. And that's assuming Pazuzu hasn't simply trapped your hapless Kobold in a dream world that resembles the real one in every detail. Except for the part where you're playing Pun-Pun instead of being unconcious in a cave somewhere.

I can't see Pazuzu doing that unless he realized you were going to try and become Pun-Pun, though.

Which is, honestly, the main problem with stopping Pun-Pun; there are certainly beings strong enough to, but are any of them constantly monitoring all the kobolds in the world just in case? The only beings who get free notifications on this stuff are deities, and Pun-Pun's ascension doesn't really fit neatly into any deific spheres of influence.

Unless, of course, you have an Overdeity like Ao with spheres of everything, but then Pun-Pun basically already exists anyway.

[tyckspoon]

Even with time loop shenanigans, infinitly long times are, well, they last for infinity. Better to settle for arbitrarily high numbers instead. And that's assuming Pazuzu hasn't simply trapped your hapless Kobold in a dream world that resembles the real one in every detail. Except for the part where you're playing Pun-Pun instead of being unconcious in a cave somewhere.

Better to be all-powerful in a fantasy than to be a level 1 Kobold Paladin in the 'real' world, really.

Focusing on the Pazuzu method is missing much of the point, anyway- there are a number of techniques that lead to Pun-Punitude. At its core, you can ascend with any ability that lets you turn into a Sarrukh and use Manipulate Form. The very first method was actually just another exercise in finding really silly broken things to do with Shapechange.

[Lamech]

Wait why are you getting a candle of invocation instead of a ring of three wishes? Calling an outsider with wish creates all sorts of problems, the ring does it with out any fuss.

[pingcode20]

Wait why are you getting a candle of invocation instead of a ring of three wishes? Calling an outsider with wish creates all sorts of problems, the ring does it with out any fuss.

Too expensive. Wish only makes magic items up to 15,000gp.

[NEO|Phyte]

Wait why are you getting a candle of invocation instead of a ring of three wishes? Calling an outsider with wish creates all sorts of problems, the ring does it with out any fuss.

What pingcode20 said, also, It's generally frowned upon when you use Wish to get more Wishes. Candle gets around that by not casting Wish.

[lesser_minion]

Wait why are you getting a candle of invocation instead of a ring of three wishes? Calling an outsider with wish creates all sorts of problems, the ring does it with out any fuss.

Surcharges.

Only a candle of invocation works, because any other magic item can't be used to make further magic items (a magic item that casts wish can only create another magic item if the original item's creator paid it, which is never the case).

[senrath]

Too expensive. Wish only makes magic items up to 15,000gp.

Nope. There is no gp limit to the magic items it can make.

[OracleofWuffing]

Too expensive. Wish only makes magic items up to 15,000gp.

The limit's 25,000, and that only applies to mundane items.

Only a candle of invocation works, because any other magic item can't be used to make further magic items.

The ring of wishes is provided by Pazuzu's spell. The wishes are then used for casting Polymorph Any Object. We're not using magic items to create magic items. In less Pun-Pun news, a Deck of Many Things is a magic item that can be used to make further magic items.

"It's not wishing for more wishes, it's wishing for a magic item! Seriously!"

[Criptfeind]

A. The rules do specify that Kobolds cannot fly.

Wait. Where?

[hamishspence]

Sarrukh exist in 4E Forgotten Realms- but they dropped the Manipulate Form ability.

Pazuzu is in 4E Demonomicon- without the ability to grant wishes to players as far as I know.

So, while the original parts for Pun-pun exist in 4E, I don't think you can do anything like Pun-pun if you begin in the 4E ruleset.

[Draxar]

This may seem like a silly question, but I can't recall ever seeing it answered...

Why is Pun-Pun called "Pun-Pun?" Why not "Blasted Kobold" or the like?

I believe it may be based on Bun-Bun from Sluggy Freelance, especially on said character's attempted ascension.

[Yuki Akuma]

Which is, honestly, the main problem with stopping Pun-Pun; there are certainly beings strong enough to, but are any of them constantly monitoring all the kobolds in the world just in case? The only beings who get free notifications on this stuff are deities, and Pun-Pun's ascension doesn't really fit neatly into any deific spheres of influence.

Unless, of course, you have an Overdeity like Ao with spheres of everything, but then Pun-Pun basically already exists anyway.

There is a God of Kobolds... whose name I can never spell.

Although I'm not sure he'd object to a Kobold gaining Real Ultimate Power.

Pun-Pun is named Pun-Pun because that's what his parents clan named him, duh.

[hamishspence]

There's more than one:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kurtulmak

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gaknulak

and if urds (winged kobolds) count:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kuraulyek

The kobold demigod Dakarnok isn't described there though.

[Yuki Akuma]

Right, that guy.

And if he's also a Dragonwrought Kobold, he also falls under the portfolio of Io, and possibly either Bahamut or Tiamat depending on his lineage.

[Boci]

Wait. Where?

Look at their speed.

[lesser_minion]

The ring of wishes is provided by Pazuzu's spell. The wishes are then used for casting Polymorph Any Object. We're not using magic items to create magic items. In less Pun-Pun news, a Deck of Many Things is a magic item that can be used to make further magic items.

You know what I meant.

You cannot create a magic item from a ring of wishes without paying extra XP to allow it to create items (basically, it's an optional effect that costs more XP than the base effect, so you can't do it because you didn't pay for it).

I'm not sure how many wishes you need, but it's worth giving yourself a backup plan, so the infinite loop option is more useful in real terms.

Sarrukh exist in 4E Forgotten Realms- but they dropped the Manipulate Form ability.

Manipulate Form is out-of-scope for 4th edition monsters (since it's a plot-crafting ability).

They still have it, it's just not listed on their stat blocks.

[Zen Master]

I can reveal why Pun-Pun doesn't work.

It doesn't work because of a number of faulty assumptions. Beginning with the assumption that npc's (Pazuzu, for instance, or the mentioned efreeti) are under player control. Further the assumption that wishes and magic items are under player control. And finally with the assumption that no one was clever enough to attempt this before in the entire multiverse and fail - after which the gods built in fail-safes of the order 'anyone who would ever try this later in life, dies at birth'.

You likely want to call that DM fiat. Fine by me. There's reasons for DM fiat to be desirable. There's really no reasoning in the world that could make player fiat so.

[sofawall]

There is absolutely no reason to even think about attacking Pun-Pun on the grounds of DM Fiat, because it is freely accepted that The DM Wins. Pun-Pun is an example of Theoretical Optimization. Theoretical Optimization is what is possible if the DM allowed everything as it is in the book, with no houserules. It is not meant to be played, it is not meant to be used. It is merely a mental exercise, someone saying "Hey, look at the knots I can bend the system into!". We all know it won't work in a game. That's part of the premise of the build! The creator, before even beginning to describe the build, says this. Emphasizes it. Iterates it, and reiterates it. Nobody cares how he works at your table. What he is designed to show is what is possible in the system.

That said, let's look at your criticisms in a TO framework, where Pun-PUn was made.

What you are saying is Pun-Pun is impossible either because NPCs and spells act totally different from how they are described in the book (taking this into house rule territory, and out of TO, therefore out of this discussion) or because Pun-Pun already exists. The first one can be discounted immediately, and, well, think about the second one.

EDIT: And let me just say this one more time. Saying Pun-Pun doesn't work outside of a TO environment is like saying a stealth submarine doesn't work in Kansas. Of course not, that not what is was made for.