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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    The Vorpal Tribble's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    *raises an eyebrow but remains silent*

  2. - Top - End - #302
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    lol. Be glad I'm not judging.

    by that I mean I would likely start scoring from -5 and work my way up.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-07-27 at 03:04 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Sorry I didn't post this sooner. Anyway, here are my scores. Similar to how Kesnit scored, I'll be starting each at 3, and adding or subtracting based on how well things fit my criteria (aka mostly on a whim).

    The Forgotten
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    Originality: 3.5
    It's a shock-trooper with some oddities, like the creator said. Not much there, although using Hellbred and Ordered Chaos were nice touches.
    Power: 3
    Again, it's a shock-trooper. Outside of hitting things really hard with a stick it can't really do much.
    Elegance: 3.5
    You managed to stick together a Chaotic only class and a Lawful only class and make it work. Not to mention you armed the guy with a Holy Unholy Anarchic Axiomatic weapon. You lose points for that last level of Paladin, which just seems slapped on.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2
    The use of the cryokineticist means you have another class doing essentially the same thing as the pyro. And all the pyro really brings to the build is a small source of extra damage.
    Total: 12 / 3

    Varholm Grimhide
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    Originality: 3
    As the creator said, he's not the first to do a Rayman build, but he did do it well.
    Power: 3.5
    He can do damage, and he can do it from more than just right next to his target. But outside of combat he can't really do anything.
    Elegance: 2
    The use of flaws kinda hurts in the elegance department.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
    The pyro is really just used for damage, but nothing really wrong with that. Nothing to take points away for, or give points to.
    Total: 11.5 / 2.875

    Tummo
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    Originality: 5
    I...I didn't expect any of what you put in front of me (save for the pyro, of course). I didn't expect any LA, and I didn't expect a soulknife.
    Power: 2.5
    You can do decent damage, but you only get 2 attacks, and that's only at ECL 20.
    Elegance: 3
    Nothing special here, really.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5
    As with the others, except that you actually end up using Heat Death.
    Total: 14 / 3.5

    Spiffy
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    Originality: 3
    The whole psychotic gnome bit has been done to death (at least in the groups I play with), but the illithids are a nice touch.
    Power: 3.5
    The damage is there, and you can do more than just kill things, although not much.
    Elegance: 3.5
    Nothing much to say here. The classes work well together, but there really isn't anything special.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
    Again, you're not really making much use of the pyro save for the bonus to damage.
    Total: 13 / 3.25

    Balko
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    Originality: 3.5
    Didn't expect to see a Shadowlord, which is quite nice.
    Power: 4
    Does a decent amount of damage, and Shadow Pounce means you can get more full attacks than you would otherwise.
    Elegance: 2
    I really don't like how you qualified for the Shadowlord.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2
    You really would've been better served to use pretty much any other class.
    Total: 11.5 / 2.875

    MiLaash
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    Originality: 4.5
    You used Binder, which I'd never expect to see with a pyrokineticist. Also, nice job at entering the pyro without taking any other psionic classes or using a race that grants a PP reserve.
    Power: 4
    Quite powerful both in and out of combat.
    Elegance: 3.5
    Everything fits together, but there's nothing really all that special.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5
    Nice job focusing on making Heat Death usable.
    Total: 15.5 / 3.875

    Taliesin
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    Originality: 3.5
    Using an Elder Evil was a nice touch.
    Power: 4
    It never really becomes superfluous at any point, and does decent damage and control.
    Elegance: 4
    It flows well, and I liked the use of the Elder Evil.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4
    All of your abilities fit together well.
    Total: 15.5 / 3.875

    Mirage
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    Originality: 4
    I like the use of the various Druid ACFs as well as the Killoren.
    Power: 2
    The power is really, really underwhelming, although it's certainly not unplayable.
    Elegance: 3.5
    Personally, I like the use of the ACFs, I feel they work together well.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
    Pyro fits thematically, but rather hurts the rest of the build.
    Total: 12.5 / 3.125

    D. Merwin Elbert
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    Originality: 4
    I like the use of JPM, which is one of my favorite classes but doesn't seem to get used much.
    Power: 2
    You're versatile, but pretty weak.
    Elegance: 4
    Everything fits together really well. I like it.
    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4
    See Elegance.
    Total: 14 / 3.5


    Also, I don't think I'm ever doing this again. I'm really not good at it.
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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    I thought your judging was fine Senrath. Thanks for volunteering the time to help the contest =)

    By the way, my own entry-in-the-making was going to be Succubus 11/Pyrokineticist 9 (1 LA buyoff), using Charisma optimization and focusing on the 9th level save-or-die to hit a DC 44ish save, as well as DC 35ish suggestion and charm SLAs, extra fire damage on claw attacks (and cha to attacks/dmg), and the usual stuff I like to pick up like intimidate optimization, darkstalker, mindsight, and flyby attack. I liked the idea of a succubus who was hot hot hot =P
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    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
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  5. - Top - End - #305
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    By the way, my own entry-in-the-making was going to be Succubus 11/Pyrokineticist 9 (1 LA buyoff), using Charisma optimization and focusing on the 9th level save-or-die to hit a DC 44ish save, as well as DC 35ish suggestion and charm SLAs, extra fire damage on claw attacks (and cha to attacks/dmg), and the usual stuff I like to pick up like intimidate optimization, darkstalker, mindsight, and flyby attack. I liked the idea of a succubus who was hot hot hot =P
    That doesn't work neatly. You couldn't buy off your LA until ECL 36 (24 class levels).
    While you could get your charisma up to.... 48, it won't go higher (not counting nimbus), and stack in ability focus... for a DC of 35. I could see issues trying to get that to work.
    I also considered dropping in some binder, maybe grabbing Improved Bind Vestige for Focalor, but couldn't fit the feats in, nor the levels. Ah, there are so many possibilities, but so few levels

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    That doesn't work neatly. You couldn't buy off your LA until ECL 36 (24 class levels).
    While you could get your charisma up to.... 48, it won't go higher (not counting nimbus), and stack in ability focus... for a DC of 35. I could see issues trying to get that to work.
    I also considered dropping in some binder, maybe grabbing Improved Bind Vestige for Focalor, but couldn't fit the feats in, nor the levels. Ah, there are so many possibilities, but so few levels
    Succubi are 6HD with 6LA - so you buy 1 off at 18th, leaving you with 6 HD/LA 5 (which is what I meant by Succubus 11).

    If it hasn't been mentioned yet, the Elemental Rime poison in C. Scoundrel gives vulnerability to fire 10. Handy for a lot of builds really.
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
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    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
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  7. - Top - End - #307
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    No. That doesn't work. Read the LA buyoff rules. They specify levels in a character class. RHD and LA don't count.
    Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    3 left to judge. I'm gonna go work out, then probably shower and go to sleep. I'll probably be able to finish tomorrow at work. This has been fun so far.
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  9. - Top - End - #309
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    No. That doesn't work. Read the LA buyoff rules. They specify levels in a character class. RHD and LA don't count.
    He is correct in this.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
    A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Ah, my mistake then. Good thing I didn't enter with the character then!
    Handbooks: (Hosted on BG)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    The Vorpal Tribble's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Ah, my mistake then. Good thing I didn't enter with the character then!
    Did you enter, Akal?

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Ah, my mistake then. Good thing I didn't enter with the character then!
    I had same trouble with my first idea. Githyanki was a good start, but I needed 21 levels to complete it and it would have negative elegance either. The good thing is this build will show up to my party very soon.
    (Good thing except for the party, I presume)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Did you enter, Akal?
    Don't guess in public. 'Cause I'm restraining myself to... "say something", and it would be unfair

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    By my unofficial calculations, these are the current standings after three judges have weighed in:

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    Taliesin: 15//3.75

    Merwin: 14.167//3.5417

    Tummo: 14//3.5

    MiLaash: 13.5//3.375

    Mirage: 12.167//3.0417

    Spiffy: 11.67//2.9167

    Balko, Varholm: 11.167//2.7917

    Forgotten: 11//2.75


    As you can see, it's still a pretty open contest for the lead.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV.

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  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    And...my judgements! For reference, I read through all of the entries, then judged them in order, then went back through and adjusted some scores up or down based on later judgement of other builds.

    The Forgotten
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    Originality: 3.5, I like the combination of Pyro and Cryo to make an Icy Hot combo. Cania, the 8th layer of Hell, is indeed a frozen wasteland surrounded by Hellfire. Kudos.

    Power: 3, Decent Cha synergy, but looks pretty lacking in defenses. Divine Grace doesnít come into play until level 20, and the Con penalty from Hellbred on what is arguably a melee character is painful. I donít see this character living past ~ECL7 in a mid-high op game, and there is no built in way to survive a Shocktrooper attack other than killing everything in an alpha-strike. No miss chance or retributive damage to discourage big Power Attack counter attacks.While the presence of 2 opposing elements is useful against things with an elemental subtype [Fire] or [Cold], it gets hit double by various outsiders who have Resistance 10 to both, which bites into your average damage significantly. Does ultimately reach 16/20 BAB, which is good for any melee build. I also see a significant investment in the Intimidate skill, but no abilities to capitalize on this investment. Also, there is no way to combine Bolt of Fire with Bolt of Cold, making the presence of one redundant to the other in most cases.

    Elegance: 1.5, poor layout, no summary of abilities at the level breaks to make it easier to chew. No stat block, or even mention of typical attack modes. Mentioned the ABILITY to use a Concordant Greatsword, but other than that, Iím not sure if heís primarily attacking with a manufactured weapon or his Fire Lash or some natural weapon Iím missing. Also missing is his Wilder powers known, and the lack of citation to CAdventurer for Leap Attack. More info would have resulted in a much higher score.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3, the duality between fire and ice is kinda cool, but seems kinda poorly executed. Other than the Cha focus, stacking +fire and +cold damage, and Ability Focus: Heat Death, doesnít make any attempt to synergize Pyro abilities in any impressive way.

    Varholm Grimhide
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    Originality: 3, I see a little martial adept goodness, which always warms my heart. AlsoÖshifters, not something you see oftenÖor ever. Probably good reason for that, more on this below.

    Power: 2, I like stacking Hands Afire with natural attacks. Unfortunately, without the Monk dip, you canít stack Hands Afire with Weapon Afire on your unarmed strikes. I see some issues with shifts/day, given the fact that you only have 1 shifter feat, and really, Beasthide Elite is one of the weakest X Elite feats out there. Warshaper makes up for some of it, but you only gain your Warshaper benefits when shifted, which again, is crippled by uses/day. Itís hard to make shifting your ďschtickĒ when itís so limited. I donít see a whole lot of versatility with this character, outside of bossing people around with intimidate, and again, I see no attempt at demoralization optimization to go with the invested ranks. Also missing is Sudden Leap to go with the Str focus and investment in Jump ranks. Sudden Leap would add MUCH more benefit at higher levels than Rabid Wolf Strike because youíll want to full attack more at higher levels, rather than waste your turn on a crappy low level strike. IMO, the Str focus is also lost on a 1:1 conversion with Unarmed Strikes, rather than the potential 2:1 conversion while PAing with Flame Lash.

    Elegance: 3, looks like you are trying to do much. Kensai and Pyro both give good stuff, and it looks like you were at odds as to which to take when. I just donít see a whole lot of synergy between stacking each class. Since the abilities lack more synergy, theyíll also lack staying power. I think the build would have been better without either Pyro or Kensai, or at the bare minimum a better attempt to synergize them (such as 2handed PA with Flame Lash).

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3, as I said, stacking UASs with Hands Afire is a pretty good use of Pyro. Bolt of Fire also makes a decent at-will ranged attack. I donít see a lot synergy with any of the other abilities though, namedly Flame Lash and Heat Death, two of the cooler abilities, IMO.

    Tummo of the Three Candles
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    Originality: 4.5, Oh, hey, random outsider. Neat. Probably the most unique entry of all. Story

    Power: 2.5, wow, this starts off weak. LA is brutal, and having 8 HP at level 5 is DANGEROUS even if you had something like a Pixieís perma-invis. But you donít. A stray fireball from a level 6 wizard has a good chance of 1 shotting you on a failed save straight to -10, do not pass go, do not stabilize, go straight to hell. IF and ONLY IF you survive level 5, youíll still be pretty fragile throughout your whole career. Even with the 20 Con, I donít see much in the way of other survivability abilities. A simple CR2 Ogre will tear through his DR and make quick work of his limited HP. At mid-high levels, the lack of BAB is troubling. Yea, you can make up for the to-hit chance with other abilities, but you canít make up for the loss of iteratives. The build doesnít gain its 2nd iterative until ECL14, and never gains the 3rd. This is remarkably crappy for a melee character who relies mostly on touch attacks and bonus damage, since damage increases geometrically with more attacks per round. As such, damage per round is gonna be miserably low, and even lower if you encounter anything with Fire Resist 10 or more. I see a straight human fighter being more powerful at nearly every ECL without ubercharger tricks.

    Elegance: 1, Iím sorry, Iím gonna blast you here for the use of that template. My biggest complaint is the stats. The rather spread out stat distribution is what makes the net total balanced. You condense this into the 3 stats you want. Thatís blatant abuse of intent. Just like you can build a PB character with straight 14s, or you can build one with straight 10s and 2 18s. The one with straight 14s has more total plusses, but the one with 2 18s is strictly stronger because you can put the 18s in the place they do the most good, and you lose the least penalty. Another complaint is the mix and matching SLAs to get what you want. Even dropping Blasphemy (normally good, but for you bad due to your lower HD) is replacing something weak with something really good. Psionic Dominate is strictly better than Poison 1/day, Deeper Darkness is strictly better than Contagion, Greater Teleport is strictly better than Blasphemy (in this case, due to HD), and Mind Probe is strictly better than Unhallow. Likewise, while I respect the attempt to synergize Cha, you also failed at that. You have exactly 1 bardic music attempt to use. You have Extra Music written in the table, but not on the feat list, and only 1 feat at ECL5 without flaws. You have to be using IC in order to start a Snowflake Wardance, which requires a 2nd music use. Thus, you canít even use SFWD without taking Extra Music at least once. If you do take Extra Music once, that still only gives you Inspire Courage 3/day, of which only 2 of them will contain SFWDs which really screws you if you have a 3-4 encounter day. Really, Iíd score this at 0, but I donít think its legal.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2, really, I think that Soulknife into Pyromancer should be a good feel, but in all actuality since a mindblade isnít material, you canít apply Weapon Afire to it, and Flame Lash is superior to Mind Blade in almost every regard anyway.

    Spiffy
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    Originality: 4, ISLURP!!!!!! That is all. It sounds like something Apple would market. I rofled greatly.

    Power: 2.5, when you get perfect positioning against a vulnerable foe, you can do an incredible amount of damage. If one of those elements is removed though, damage drops significantly. Tentacles wonít pierce DR/Magic or any DR/Material or DR/Alignment, whichíll absorb most of the SA damage attached to them. Fire Resistance 10 will hurt, but FR 15 or more will cripple you, and something like a fire elemental will knock you down to what, 20 damage per round at ECL20. DR is something you should definitely look into investing resources to circumvent, on top of crit immunity and fire resistance. Also, very squishy. No miss chance, crit immunity, attempt at DR, and a rather meager AC. Force Screen is actually gonna suck in this case, given its action cost, unless you are always aware of combat before combat is aware of you. With your high stealth and the Darkstalker feat, this is certainly possible, provided you can break away from your normally depressingly noisy party and their full plate shenanigans.

    Elegance: 3, you donít qualify for Deepspawn. It requires 1 other Aberrant feat other than Aberrant Blood. You donít have one. Darkstalker is NOT an Aberrant feat. Iíd recommend changing something around for Inhuman Reach, a GREAT middle Aberrant feat. Other than that, I love the synergy between high number of attacks and lots of bonus damage, although with that schtick, I would have opted to try to get a couple more natural attacks squeezed in.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3, Pyrokinetisist does well here, but I canít help but feel that more rogue or more assassin would have made it better. Splashing Pyro in as a source of cheap +damage is good, but it limits the character against DR, while higher SA would punch through DR. On the other side, itís a nice fallback against foes who are immune to SAs.

    Balko the Farmer
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    Originality: 3.5, I like Telflammar Shadowlord, I think it fits everything perfectly. Shadow Pounce is often cited, but seldom seen.

    Power: 3, Ardent is strong, and you picked a lot of powers that are either effecting with low augementations or donít need to be augemented. That said, Pyrokintisist does not advance anything Ardent oriented. This stings. Also, Hand of Death is a terrible feat to pick up with your 18th level Martial Study. Youíd have an IL of 9 at 18th level, giving you a 5th level maneuver, which should be Shadow Stride for a move action Shadow Pounce to get a 1/encounter round with 2 full attacks. Telflammar Shadowlord is also strong, but it comes WAY too late in the build to be effective. It would probably be best to bump it down a few levels to get Shadow Pounce by ECL12 or so, then hop back into Pyro.

    Elegance: 2, Its impossible for you to have Assassinís Stance where you have it. You have it in your 10th level stat block, but itís a 3rd level stance, meaning you need an IL of 5. Since none of your levels are initiator levels, your IL at level 10 will be 5, but you donít get a feat at 10, so youíd have to wait till level 12 to take Martial Stance: Assassin Stance. Also, you canít combine Spring Attack with Psionic Lionís Charge because you canít charge and use Spring Attack at the same time.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2, You could get a nearly similar, better character with more Swordsage and less Pyro. You donít synergize any of the abilities other than the obvious Weapon Afire ability, and barely even utilize the Flame Lash, arguably the strongest feature for this character.

    MiLaash
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    Originality: 3.5, I like the use of Binder and Hexblade. Optimized fear/debuff isnít terribly original, but effective in this combo. I also like the way youíve blended in some Incarnum. Its such a flexible system that splices easily into just about any build.

    Power: 5, this is the strongest build. The focus on debuff is a lifelong boost to the party casters, and once Heat Death comes online, living creatures best not stand too close or they get burned. Binder starts strong, and Pyro finishes strong for this build. I donít have a whole lot to comment on here, because it speaks for itself. You are little fragile in the HP department, and the odd Con is sloppy, but strong in saves and other defenses. I would have liked to see a bit more effort to optimize intimidate, such as with Dreadful Wrath or Intimidating Strike, or even a nod to Fearsome armor and the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Stacking fear is a -6 to saves, making Heat Death that much more potent.

    Elegance: 3, Iím not a huge fan of picking up LA at mid-high levels, especially not split up like that. The website states that half-fey is NORMALLY an inherited template, and you only mostly alluded to that. I guess I can see the abilities coming into play as you age, kinda like fairy puberty, but it would have been nice if you had expounded on this a touch more.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5, near perfect utilization of just about all of the Pyromancer abilities, weaving them together in a powerful way with other abilities to create a flaming tapestry of fiery deathÖthat is on fire.

    Taliesin Pyrain
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    Originality: 3, I like the Hexblade, even if there was a bit more of it than Iíd recommend. Blackguard makes a decent cap. The part I really like is the devotion to elder evils. Why settle for a ďlesserĒ evil. Go hard or go home.

    Power: 5, another really strong build focused on debuff. A tough more Hexblade than Iíd recommend, and the Binder dip would have been pretty remarkable here. Great resistances, and stacking fear helps prevent counterattacks. Dark Companion + Dreadful Wrath + Hex followed by Heat Death is serious business. Slightly better at the main trick than MiLaash, but lacking in the versatility that she has from Dim Hop and Firewalk with the augmented PP pool.

    Elegance: 4, everything ties together well. Again, probably would have been best to jump out of Hexblade at level 4, since 5 is pretty dead. The Cleave prereq from Blackguard actually goes nicely with the extended reach from Flame Lash. With your damage output, you should be able to drop a foe a round in most multi-foe encounters, allowing to you gain 2-3 cleave attacks in most fights, well worth a feat.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, you did a good job of stitching things together. I like the way that your Pyromancer abilities are enhanced and improved by nearly every other ability in the build. Well done.

    Mirage
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    Originality: 3, nothing too terribly impressive here, but druid was not expected. Kiloran was likewise a rather neat choice.

    Power: 2.5, started strong, then fell apart. Utilizing Scimitar of Sand or Flame Blade to make touch attacks is a great tactic, and you should have focused more on that. Build becomes unfocused and bogged down by action economy. It takes too many rounds to get going with this tactic. Also, by the time Wild Shape comes into play, the abilities you get are all WAY too weak, so that almost becomes more of a utility feature than a combat feature. The thing I do really like is the combo between Instant Clarity and Heat Death. If you had focused on this a little more, along with making Martial Strikes with your Flame Lash and/or Flame Blade, I would have scored this a couple points higher. As it is, those abilities donít come into play until the very end of the build. I see damage being low, survivability being rather low, and the lack of focus on Heat Death means its probably unlikely to hit much when you do finally get it. Setting the whole battlefield on fire is likewise a rather risky tactic, as likely to hurt your friends as your foes. Probably great for a BBEG, bad for a PC.

    Elegance: 2, I see a distinct lack of focus. Also, unless Iím missing something, you donít qualify for Arcane Hierophant without 2nd level arcane spells or some form of early entry shenanigans, which you lack. Duel progression PrCs are often rather weak when you focus on them, but this is taking focus and throwing out the window. You also fail to mention your spells known for sorcerer. Careful selection would allow you to salvage this, but without more info its tough to make a call.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2, I donít see a whole lot of mechanical synergy other than the above mentioned Instant Clarity + Heat Death combo, which I love. If you had brought that completed combo online at ECL13, I would have been a lot more impressed, but as it stands, weak execution.

    D. Merwin Elbert
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    Originality: 3, Swordsage was good, not really expecting Warmage though. Kinda a curious choice. Nothing particularly fascinating here, but nothing overly bland either.

    Power: 2.5, first level is about as good as youíd expect first level to be, but 2nd-5th is a bit laggy. I can see survivability being a bit of a problem, with d6 HP and a 12 Con at those levels. I also see a lot of MAD, but that gets better with JPM levels assuming that most warmage spell slots would likely be burnt at the alter of the JPM. The loss of casting from Pyromancer really defeats this concept, though, making it tough to keep up when you start really burning through spells. Also, Swordsages are the kings of using swift action boosts, but JPM requires your swift action to burn spells for damage. If you focus on strikes, tough, you lose out on damage potential. Also, after JPM levels kick in, Warmage Edge becomes a pretty dead feature. At that point, youíd probably be better off with Sorcerer levels for more SAD and versatility in taking physical combat related spells. You also opted for Psionic Meditation over Instant Clarity when you are already using ToB. IC is good, missing out on it is not. Decent damage though, with weapon afire and the sacrificed spell slots, but I canít help but wonder if youíd be better off with a little Power Attack to go with your touch attacks, which isnít really possible with your Str.

    Elegance: 3, everything is well tied together. I donít notice a huge amount of stacked synergy, though. Warmage Edge is kinda a dead feature past level 8 or so, especially when Bolt of Fire becomes your primary ranged weapon and you stop casting spells. Itís just kinda a jarring disconnect.

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5, not a whole lot of focus on using all of your other abilities to showcase your Pyromancer abilities. Heat Death is relatively unsupported, and attacks per round will be low, denying the real focus on Weapon Afire or Hands Afire. Also, I canít help but think that this build would be much better with more JPM and less Pyromancer, to the point where no Pyromancer would be a good amount. Its not a bad idea, just not handled in a way that really brings Pyromancer to the forefront of the build.


    Iíll let someone else do my totals...this was a lot of work! If you have any problems with my judging, feel free to PM me with your pyromancer flames.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-07-28 at 04:19 PM.
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    Keld's totals:
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    Forgotten 11
    Varholm 11
    Tummo 10
    Spiffy 12.5
    Balko 10.5
    MiLaash 16
    Talisien 17
    Mirage 9.5
    Merwin 11


    Running totals, arranged by score.
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    Taliesin: 62/80

    MiLaash: 57/80

    Merwin: 53.5/80

    Tummo: 52/80

    Spiffy: 47.5/80

    Mirage: 46/80

    Varholm: 44.5/80

    Balko: 44/80

    Forgotten: 44/80

    Overall average: 50.55/80, or average score of 3.16 of a potential 5.


    I'll try getting totals for categories as well. Time to trawl back a bit.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-29 at 02:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Um...I'm Keld, not Kurald...

    Also, unless I'm mistaken, you have MiLaash out of place. She should be 2nd.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Iíll let someone else do my totals...this was a lot of work! If you have any problems with my judging, feel free to PM me with your pyromancer flames.
    Actually, I think to avoid arguments (and avoid breaking anonymity) we're supposed to PM any objections to Prinny and let him pass them along. (Though, I don't know what he's planning to do with them ... I sent in some things that a previous judge missed, and haven't heard yet whether there will be any updating of scores due to his mistakes. Prinny?)
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Um...I'm Keld, not Kurald...

    Also, unless I'm mistaken, you have MiLaash out of place. She should be 2nd.
    Correct and correct. Sorry about that, I appear to be mixing up the ftagn-dazs with a dragon. I suppose I'm tired.

    Data: Don't open unless checking numbers. Contains judging data, arranged Senrath, Kesnit, Keld, Aethernox, each originality/power/elegance/UoSI
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    3.5/3/3.5/2 3/2.5/1.5/2 3.5/3/1.5/3 4/3.5/2/2.5 Forgotten

    3/3.5/2/3 3/2.5/2/2.5 3/2/3/3 3.5/3.5/1.5/3 Varholm

    5/2.5/3/3.5 4/4/3.5/3.5 4.5/2.5/1/2 5/2.5/2.5/3 Tummo

    3/3.5/3.5/3 2.5/2.5/2/2.5 4/2.5/3/3 3/3/3.5/3 Spiffy

    3.5/4/2/2 3/2/1.5/3 3.5/3/2/2 3.5/3.5/3/2.5 Balko

    4.5/4/3.5/3.5 4.5/2.5/2/2.5 3.5/5/3/4.5 4/4/3/3 MiLaash

    3.5/4/4/4 4.5/3.5/4/3.5 3/5/4/5 3.5/4/3.5/4 Talisien

    4/2/3.5/3 4.5/2.5/2/3.5 3/2.5/2/2 4/2/2.5/3 Mirage

    4/2/4/4 4.5/4/3.5/3 3/2.5/3/2.5 3.5/2/4/4 Ebert


    Totals:
    Originality/Power/Elegance/UoSI
    14/12/8.5/9.5 Forgotten
    12.5/11.5/8.5/11.5 Varholm
    18.5/11.5/10/10 Tummo
    12.5/11.5/12/11.5 Spiffy
    13.5/12.5/8.5/9.5 Balko
    16.5/15.5/11.5/13.5 MiLaash
    14.5/16.5/15.5/16.5 Talisien
    15.5/9/10/11.5 Mirage
    15/10.5/14.5/13.5 Ebert


    Originality: Average 13.33//3.3333
    Tummo: 18.5
    MiLaash: 16.5
    Mirage: 15.5
    Ebert: 15
    Talisien: 14.5
    Forgotten: 14
    Balko: 13.5
    Varholm/Spiffy: 12.5

    Power: Average 12.277//3.07
    Talisien: 16.5
    MiLaash: 15.5
    Balko: 12.5
    Forgotten: 12
    Varholm/Tummo/Spiffy: 11.5
    Ebert: 10.5
    Mirage: 9

    Elegance: 11//2.75
    Talisien: 15.5
    Ebert: 14.5
    Spiffy: 12
    MiLaash: 11.5
    Tummo/Mirage: 10
    Forgotten/Varholm/Balko: 8.5

    Use of Secret Ingredient: Average 10.388//2.6
    Talisien: 16.5
    Ebert/MiLaash: 13.5
    Mirage/Spiffy/Varholm: 11.5
    Tummo: 10
    Forgotten/Balko: 9.5

    EDIT: Change to MiLaash's elegance score accommodated for.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-29 at 02:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Thank you for keeping track of the numbers, Arbitrarity. You saved me a lot of trouble.

    Anyway, here are some responses to the judgings, sorted by judge and then the entrant concerned. I'll add in any more if I get them.

    To all judges
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    The Forgotten
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Forgotten
    In response to the discussion come up around the Ordered Chaos feat, I'd like to post the following into the thread anonymously:
    ----------------------------------

    The feat Ordered Chaos feat is rather oddly worded. The first bit states that you aren't affected by the alignment change of the Abyssal Heritor feats. The second bit says
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendish Codex I
    Spells and effects that are keyed to alignment affect you as if you were chaotic, as well as your actual alignment. For example... ...you could take the Primodial Scion feat despite its chaotic alignment prerequisite
    And I had no clue that Pyrokineticist had well known other elemental variants. I don't do psionics. If you look where I listed my sources, Frostburn is present and nothing else from the build is from the book.


    Merwin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merwin
    Primarily in response to Keld:
    The unusual choice of Warmage was there to improve Originality, mesh CHA synergy with Pyrokineticist, and to provide shield proficiency. Shield proficiency, as indicated in the build, is there to boost low level defenses and to allow more power points, which Firewalk eats like candy. Warmage is one of the only caster classes that expressly grants that needed shield proficiency. Using Warmage also allows for a greater variety of damage types for fire-immune enemies, which focusing exclusively on Heat Death would not. That said, CHA 30 without templates or other cheese that judges indicated would lose points. Scoring on Elegance indicated taking classes to reasonable break-points. The free Empower ability at JPM 4 was precisely that break-point.


    Kesnit
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    Grimhide
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimhide
    It's only a minor thing, so I don't mind if you ignore it, but Kesnit's judging for originality gave me a 3.0 for "I like how you used a psionic PrC rather than base class to meet the power point requirement. "

    Now, I'm perfectly happy with the score, but I didn't use a Psionic PrC other than Pyro... and others got a 4.5 for "As you said, you managed to take a psionic PrC without any classes that grant PP. " which was exactly the same trick I used...

    Again, I realise there's obviously more to a single score than one thing, I just thought I'd point it out since his explanation of why he gave that score mentions something that just doesn't exist in the build.


    MiLaash
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiLaash
    Hey, I have some objections to some oversights made by Kesnit ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    With respect to Use of Secret Ingredient, all entries used all 10 levels, so there was no need to mark anyone down for that.
    This might hurt my score, rather than helping it, but MiLaash only used 9 Pyro levels. Evidence that Kesnit wasn't quite meticulous enough ...

    MiLaash
    Power: 2.5. Another one-trick pony - attack. Bonus points for finding ways to debuff saves so your one-trick has a decent chance of working.
    I'm not sure if this counts as a "fact" or an "opinion," but I was annoyed that my build, with Half-Fey Spell-Like Abilities, was classified as a "one-trick attack pony" when another build was praised for the versatility granted to it by Half-Fiend Spell-Like Abilities.

    Elegance: 1.5. While I like the originality of qualifying for the class without dedicated PP, doing so relies strongly on your DM letting you pull that trick.
    This is my biggest objection. My build absolutely qualifies for Pyrokineticist via the 2 PP granted by the Hidden Talent feat, regardless of whether the Azure Talent/Psycarnum Infusion trick works. No DM fiat required for entering Pyro; only for using PP-based abilities more than 2/day.

    Your 3 levels of Half-Fey seem tacked on for the bonuses and extra abilities.
    It's two levels of Half-Fey. More evidence of the need for more editing.

    As far as Half-Fey being "tacked on," it's a valid opinion, but it does make me wonder if Kesnit read my backstory at all. The character's history is extremely involved with the Fey.


    aethernox
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    Tummo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tummo
    It's nice that you (and most other contestants) took the secret ingredient to its capstone, but the fact that your build relies on action points (which aren't always available)
    Just thought you might want to mention to Aethernox that Tummo's build does 'not' rely on action points. The last feat, that he gets at 20th level, needs action points, but that is it.

    Psionic Meditation requires a move action to attain psionic focus.

    Heroic Focus at 20th level just makes it a swift action if you use action points.

    The build was made purposely to have it at the last level so it 'wouldn't' be required
    Last edited by Private-Prinny; 2010-07-28 at 06:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Well, that doesn't affect my judgement. That's how I was reading that particular feat anyway.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    @ Merwin

    Don't get me wrong, 4 levels of JPM is a pretty decent time to jump out. You don't lose another point of BAB, you get a good ability, and whatnot. But thats mostly for jumping out to take something else, like AbjChamp or a level of Spellsword, not for moving into something completely unrelated. More JPM would have been WAY better than Pyrokinetisist at that point.

    In no way would Warmage have been better than Sorcerer as used in that build.

    Shield Proficiency isn't needed. Use a Mithril Buckler. Costs 1000g, has a -0 ACP (so non-proficiency doesn't matter) and has a -0 ASF. Almost no drawbacks. 1000g spent is better than taking the subpar Warmage.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Perhaps 'relies' was a bad term to use; I apologize, it was a bit late and over the course of several nights that I finished these. The fact that the build includes variant rules such as action points was what I meant to point out; I didn't mean to imply that Tummo requires the feat to function, and I'm entirely aware that it doesn't. It still is something of an awkward inclusion, in my opinion, and I'm sorry if you disagree.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    I just PM-ed Prinny my responses to the comments.

    Based on one of those comments (which clarified a misunderstanding on my part), I will be posting a new score for MiLaash's Elegance before long.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Since part of the reason I gave MiLaash a low Eligance score was a misunderstanding on my part, I am revising that score to 2.0, giving an overall score of 11.5 and an average of 2.875.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    During the competition, my second idea was to build an archer, using the weapon afire as bonus damage, since I noticed that it specified that it could be applied to projectiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon Afire
    Weapon Afire (Ps)

    At 4th level and higher, a pyrokineticist can activate this ability as a move-equivalent action. Flames that harm neither her nor the weapon engulf one weapon she holds (which can be a projectile such as a stone, bullet, arrow, or bolt). The weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The weapon retains this effect for as long as the pyrokineticist wields it.
    But, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out what would qualify as "Wielding" a projectile. Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on how to practically full attack with Weapon Afire'd arrows or bolts?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    If its like any other magical effect, it would cost you an action to augement up to 50 projectiles (since 50 ammunition = 1 weapon). Since the fire doesn't harm the weapon, or you (and your gear by extension), you'd just have a flaming quiver of fire, or whatever you keep your ammo loaded in.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    If its like any other magical effect, it would cost you an action to augement up to 50 projectiles (since 50 ammunition = 1 weapon). Since the fire doesn't harm the weapon, or you (and your gear by extension), you'd just have a flaming quiver of fire, or whatever you keep your ammo loaded in.
    I thought so at first, but it doesn't say you can do it 50 at a time, it says 1 projectile. That's not really a big deal, you can spend 50 move actions outside of combat if you need to. The thing is, it says that the effect lasts so long as the weapon is wielded, so for an arrow, I assume that means knocked and ready to fire, or maybe held in the hand.... How do you keep enough ammo charged for a full attack.

    I was thinking that a quick loading, self loading crossbow, might count, since all of the ammo is in the "hopper" of a weapon you are wielding, but it was too much of a long shot to stake my build on.

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    The weapon aflame ability is really only effective with one ranged attack at a time. A multi-armed critter may be able to wield more at once, setting themselves up for a 1 round full attack. You may also be able to work something with master thrower.

    A returning thrown weapon would be the best option. Or a Bloodstorm melee weapon. I doubt the Fire Lash could be thrown, though you could technically throw a whip with the throw anything feat.

    RE Ordered Chaos: It does not work like that. Alignment is not an effect or a spell. It is an attribute. Effects trigger off that attribute, but the feat does not change the attribute. It changes how spells and effects interact with alignment. Not how alignment interacts with prerequisites. The only prerequisites the feat description mentions, are those pertaining to Abyssal Heritor. I doubt that me bringing the matter up again is going to change anyone's opinion on the subject though.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Yea, I could see your point on that. Its kinda wonky, and not very well worded. Probably best to avoid that.

    I think, if I was trying to optimize Pyrokinetisist, I'd do some kind of Hexblade/Crusader/Pyro/Crusader build, focusing on interspered Martial Strikes with my Flame Lash and Heat Death attacks, using Instant Clarity to recover. Unfortunately, it looks like Instant Clarity is limited to 3x per day...could you take it again to gain 3 more uses?
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  30. - Top - End - #330
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    only one Instant Clarity feat. You would have to combine it with some other method of regaining focus in order to stretch it out for the day. That likely means a psionic class and a psycrystal.

    edit: Not sure about psionic items. Some may be able to hold a focus, though I could be thinking of 3rd party material.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-07-29 at 01:15 PM.

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