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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Private-Prinny's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    I feel like it's time to answer some questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I will be going in as a contestant on this one, as this is one of my favorite classes.

    Before I do, I request some rules clarifications on this:

    1) It specifies that the Flame Lash is a Ranged Touch Attack. Does this mean it is inelegable for the following: Power Attack, STR to Damage, ability to wield it in two-hands, or does it operate as a Weapon-Like Spell (or in this case, Psi)-Like Ability in all regards?

    2) The entry for Flame Lash states that it may do damage to a target within 15'. Does this mean it can strike at 5' and 10' without penalty as well?

    3) How would a size increase of the wielder affect the size, reach, and damage of the Flame Lash?

    I've already got my build set up, should be fairly unique. I may take a hit on the Power category, but I should make it up in Originality and Elegance.
    1) The Fire Lash states that you can use any feat that may normally be used in conjunction with a regular whip. If Power Attack is one of them, it's fair game. Just keep in mind that all extra sources of damage are also fire damage.

    2) 5' and 10' are both within 15', and the normal whip can strike in that area as well, so yes, yes you can. But, as with a standard whip, those squares are not considered to be threatened.

    3) It would not. If a change in size is not specified by the ability description, I can only assume that a Gnome Pyro and a Goliath Pyro will be doing the same amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Hmm...Under what ability do Natural Attacks fall? Hands Afire, Weapons Afire, or neither?

    Also, what are the creation rules? Attributes, HP, Multiclassing, and so on.
    Weapon Afire for natural attacks.

    Character creation standard is 32 point buy. Most entrants assume average HP and multiclassing penalties are in play. I think they're stupid and remove them from all of my games, but this is not the time or place for houserules.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    multiclassing penalties are in play.
    Well that forced a rebuild. Ironically, this is going to increase the number of level dips dramatically.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Well, I can tell you that I don't care for that particular rule (multiclass penalties, that is), and probably won't be paying attention to it when I judge. For the most part, I'd rather see a build that suffers from the penalties than from one comprised of ten different classes.

    I probably should put that in my guideline post.
    Last edited by senrath; 2010-07-16 at 09:56 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    FAQ says:
    Can you use a whip with two hands, thus gaining 1.5 x
    Strength bonus?

    Given that the whip is a one-handed weapon, while it might
    appear awkward, the rules of the game are clear that this is
    certainly possible.

    Can you use the Power Attack feat in combination with
    a whip?

    Actually yes, this is also possible, since the whip is listed as
    a melee weapon.

    Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of
    fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str
    bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this
    special weapon?

    It would seem so. The wording in the description of this
    psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat
    that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of
    those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to
    apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well.
    Seem fair? Because I've just read the 9 page argument about if Fire Lash works with Trip attacks, Disarm attempts, Power Attack, and so forth, and it's really, really annoying. Since it's an RTA, anything that requires a melee attack doesn't function with it, RAW.
    Essentially:
    Fire Lash would get the benefit it it had the ability to trip, but it doesn't have the ability to trip, and having Improved Trip doesn't grant it the ability to trip. If and when you get the ability to trip with Fire Lash, you will have tangible access to the benefits you've had all along.
    NGHHAAAAA. Can we treat it like a whip for all purposes, i.e. melee weapon, except that hits require a ranged touch attack, or what?
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-16 at 10:36 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Most importantly, can I apply things that are not feats (like a warblade's maneuvers) to the fire whip?
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Or, for that matter, how does the whip's reach work if you increase your natural reach? Normal reach weapons just double your natural reach, but how does whip's 15 ft work with that?
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    I would like to toss my hat in the ring for this one.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Literal reading says no, because it's a ranged touch attack, and those really aren't in the purview of the feat exception.

    Oh, I assume you can't stack Hand Afire and Weapon Afire (i.e. with Monk Unarmed strike). Because that's broken.

    Oooh, can you make more than one Fire Lash at a time?
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-16 at 10:58 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Literal reading says no, because it's a ranged touch attack, and those really aren't in the purview of the feat exception.

    Oh, I assume you can't stack Hand Afire and Weapon Afire (i.e. with Monk Unarmed strike). Because that's broken.
    Actually, that might be legal. There are a lot of abilities which are unclear here.

    Can you threaten with the Fire Lash? You normally can't with a whip, but that is only because it deals non-lethal damage.
    Last edited by dextercorvia; 2010-07-16 at 10:53 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Or, for that matter, how does the whip's reach work if you increase your natural reach? Normal reach weapons just double your natural reach, but how does whip's 15 ft work with that?
    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    Actually, that might be legal. There are a lot of abilities which are unclear here.

    Can you threaten with the Fire Lash? You normally can't with a whip, but that is only because it deals non-lethal damage.
    I answered both of these questions already at the top of the page.
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    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Sorry about that. I read that post, but my eyes must have glazed across the part I didn't want to see.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    No, you don't threaten. The whip explicitly notes it doesn't threaten, which isn't at all related to its property of nonlethal damage. Saps threaten. Whips do not.

    I'm going to dig up my ToB.

    Ah, here we are. Now, examine the following.

    The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack
    This indicates the only allowed form of attack for the lash. That is, the lash is a ranged touch attack.

    Examine an arbitrary Strike. It likely has the text "When you use this maneuver, you make a melee attack against a single foe." (Foehammer), or words to that effect ("As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack") The lash is unable to make melee attacks. Thus, it cannot be used to deliver Strikes.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    No, you don't threaten. The whip explicitly notes it doesn't threaten, which isn't at all related to its property of nonlethal damage. Saps threaten. Whips do not.

    I'm going to dig up my ToB.

    Ah, here we are. Now, examine the following.



    This indicates the only allowed form of attack for the lash. That is, the lash is a ranged touch attack.

    Examine an arbitrary Strike. It likely has the text "When you use this maneuver, you make a melee attack against a single foe." (Foehammer), or words to that effect ("As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack") The lash is unable to make melee attacks. Thus, it cannot be used to deliver Strikes.
    Yeah, pretty much figured... now I need to go edit my plans.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Does anyone know how to make one of those pretty level by level charts? I was going to copy one out of the last contest, but it doesn't quote since it's in a spoiler.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Fax Celestis has a helpful guide

    Don't post in it though, god knows how old it is now.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    FAQ says:


    Seem fair? Because I've just read the 9 page argument about if Fire Lash works with Trip attacks, Disarm attempts, Power Attack, and so forth, and it's really, really annoying. Since it's an RTA, anything that requires a melee attack doesn't function with it, RAW.
    Essentially:


    NGHHAAAAA. Can we treat it like a whip for all purposes, i.e. melee weapon, except that hits require a ranged touch attack, or what?
    I'll leave that up to the judges. If they could weigh in collectively, that would be great. I would say it's a reasonable ruling, but that might just be my RAI sense tingling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I answered both of these questions already at the top of the page.
    No, you didn't. My question is related to how whip reach works when you increase natural reach, not whether whip can attack within 5 or 10 ft. If, for example, you increase your natural reach to 10 ft, what happens to your whip's reach? A normal reach weapon simply doubles reach, so you'd have 20 ft reach with 10 ft natural reach. Since a whip has nonstandard reach though, what happens then? Would it triple that to 30 ft? Double and then add 5 ft to the end for 25 ft? Not change at all?
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Private-Prinny View Post
    I'll leave that up to the judges. If they could weigh in collectively, that would be great. I would say it's a reasonable ruling, but that might just be my RAI sense tingling.
    I would rule that it works, as well.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    In 3), he said size increases would not effect the 15 feet at all.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    One size is given for the Flame Lash. No change to the size of the wielder is accommodated for by the ability. Therefore, a Flame Lash is always 15 ft. long and deals 1d8 fire damage on a successful ranged touch attack. I can only begin to imagine the ways to break that.
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    'Adding up numbers' is completely independent of roleplay. What you're saying makes as much sense as "peeling a banana is not a good way to drive."


  21. - Top - End - #111
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    So, the lash attack is treated as a melee slashing attack, but resolves as a ranged touch attack. This means that feats applying to whips and ranged touch attacks apply, and that powers and abilities applying to melee attacks and ranged attacks apply?

    Sooo... can I use power attack?
    Can I use Point Blank Shot? Rapid Shot?
    Can I use Diamond Nightmare Blade?
    Can I use Slashing Flurry?
    Can I use it while Pouncing?
    Can I trip?

    Eh. I'm not really using much Fire Lash, so I don't care that much. Honestly, Lash is a 1 level dip, and if it's build focus, look carefully to make sure you aren't playing Flaming Homer or similar.

    Personally, I'd like to just make it a melee touch attack which uses dexterity to hit and provokes like a ranged attack. Because this is too ambiguous. But that's waaay off RAW.

    Also, what do Horizon Goggles (Complete Mage) do to the lash? It looks like they'd increase the range by 50%, which is... interesting.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-16 at 11:25 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    In 3), he said size increases would not effect the 15 feet at all.
    I thought that was only in relation to damage. Well, time to build that Diminutive whip-wielder I always wanted to make.
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  23. - Top - End - #113

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Since a whip has nonstandard reach though, what happens then? Would it triple that to 30 ft? Double and then add 5 ft to the end for 25 ft? Not change at all?
    Or if you have a 20 ft. natural reach, does the whip still just have a 15 ft. reach?

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchers View Post
    Or if you have a 20 ft. natural reach, does the whip still just have a 15 ft. reach?
    Yes. I know it makes no sense. But
    The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack
    is quite unambiguous.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Guys, c'mon now. It extends 15 feet from your hand. If you have a 20 foot reach then you extend it 15 more feet. Its simple as that.

  26. - Top - End - #116

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    The fact that what the rules say and what you say are different things is why I am forced to ask these questions. Maybe the judges agree with you, maybe the judges see it the other way. I'd rather know beforehand.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Guys, c'mon now. It extends 15 feet from your hand. If you have a 20 foot reach then you extend it 15 more feet. Its simple as that.
    No. No it is not. Common sense is confusing, and leads to everyone disagreeing on legality.

    Also, your stated example conflicts with the default case of 5 ft reach, which only gives 15 ft reach. Your example would imply 20 ft reach. Should it be revised to grant 30 ft reach, instead of 35 ft? Where is the precedent here? Does it involve a colossal creature using a medium whip?

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    19 contestants! Controversy is obviously an attention grabber lol.

    I'm thinking that firelash is a special attack that is treated as a whip. It's actual size is irrelevant. If it was important, it would have been noted in the description. It does the same base damage regardless of whether you are dimunutive or gargantuan. I think that reach will still be in effect though. Whips are unusual weapons. Firelash is consequently an unusual ability.

    I forgot. As it is treated as an RTA, it will provoke if used against an adjacent opponent. I do not think that it can be used for AoO either. The Lasher prestige class from 3.0's Sword and Fist had some abilities negating these restrictions from memory.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-07-17 at 12:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    If it's not too late to sign up for it I'm more than willing to judge.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    For my judgments, I am reading Fire Lash as a 15-ft long, 1d8 fire damage, RTA-based, whip. It can do anything a whip can do, is always 15 ft long, and always does 1d8 fire damage. Makes sense to me (Occam's Razor and all that).

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