Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

[Amphetryon]

The Lasher prestige class from 3.0's Sword and Fist had some abilities negating these restrictions from memory.

IIRC, the Lasher is one of the PrCs that Exotic Weapon Master replaced in 3.5, rendering it an illegal choice for this contest.

[Kesnit]

As I'm reading the Lash, it can hit a creature within 15', regardless of the character's reach. Tiny or gargantuan, the range is still 15'.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

No. No it is not. Common sense is confusing, and leads to everyone disagreeing on legality.

Also, your stated example conflicts with the default case of 5 ft reach, which only gives 15 ft reach. Your example would imply 20 ft reach. Should it be revised to grant 30 ft reach, instead of 35 ft? Where is the precedent here? Does it involve a colossal creature using a medium whip?

Let me rephrase.

Medium-sized reach weapons extend 10 feet from you. You can reach 5 more feet than your normal reach. With the whip, you can reach 10 more.

I can see why there would be problems, but I'd still say the whip can reach 10 feet more than your normal reach.

[true_shinken]

Abot the Fire Lash, after dealing extensively with Eldritch Glaive in my guide to melee warlocks and reading a lot of CustServ rulings on glaive, I can say it is pretty much similar to Fire Lash.
This kind of 'spell/power/SLA/PLA-that-creates-a-weapon' has rules different from weapons. Complete Arcane deals with those. Now, the fire lash specifically says it is dealt with as a ranged touch attack and that whip feats apply to it. That makes it pretty clear to me it is not intended to be treated as a melee weapon, otherwise they could just say 'it is a melee attack, but you use your Dex score for that and you provoke when attacking'. Being ranged means you can't use melee shenanigans with it, which is probably what they intended (and by RAW what it works).
Basically, Fire Lash gives you a ranged (mid-ranged, probably) full-attack ability. Target is far away? Fire Bolt him. Target is within 15 foot? Full-attack him with fire lash. Target is closer? Full-attack him with melee weapon.
I think it is a lot safer to not presume on the rules here, since it can and most probably will cost you a lot of points from specific judges.
I recommend reading Complete Arcane and my guide to melee warlocks for more notes on similar effects.

[Watchers]

I recommend using whatever rules are established here, regardless of what the rules are perceived to be elsewhere.

[true_shinken]

I recommend using whatever rules are established here, regardless of what the rules are perceived to be elsewhere.

Well, if there were established rules here, I'd agree with you. Even Prinny said he is not sure about this, and he is the chairman.
If there were a set of established rules, I wouldn't mention Complete Arcane or my guide, but since it seems people are trying to establish rules, I think reading about the subject in question helps a lot.

[Arbitrarity]

Let me rephrase.

Medium-sized reach weapons extend 10 feet from you. You can reach 5 more feet than your normal reach. With the whip, you can reach 10 more.

I can see why there would be problems, but I'd still say the whip can reach 10 feet more than your normal reach.

Fair enough. Does that mean that tiny creatures using a lash have 10 ft reach?

Look, I don't have an issue with trying to adjudicate what's going on, because I don't care so much about the power, and it practically requires interpretation to be usable.
I do care about trying to hash out the most consistent, usable set of rules about how it works, so everyone has a clear understanding about what they can and can't do with the lash. I'd prefer that that set of rules be consistent with the RAW, because otherwise we're not quite optimizing Pyrokineticist, we're optimizing a houseruled pyrokineticist, who has abilities that function differently than the actual class.

[Amphetryon]

I'd prefer that that set of rules be consistent with the RAW, because otherwise we're not quite optimizing Pyrokineticist, we're optimizing a houseruled pyrokineticist, who has abilities that function differently than the actual class.

The fire lash is ambiguously worded to the point that I'm not entirely convinced that it's possible to create a Pyrokineticist that doesn't rely to some extent on the DM's house-ruling. That's just an observation, based on the combined oddity of functioning like a whip and being a ranged touch attack at the same time.

EDIT: Food for thought, and nothing more, here. In 3.0, a whip was a ranged weapon. The 3.0 Pyrokineticist's ranged touch attack and verbiage makes sense from that baseline. If, just for instance, there was a copy-pasta error to keep the fire lash as a ranged touch attack like its 3.0 predecessor, things become a wee bit clearer.

However Prinny rules on it is obviously the law of the land for this contest.

[Arbitrarity]

I said that in the part of my post you cut out

Technically, it only functions like a whip with regards to feats.
Whatever though. I have a single trick for lower levels that can make good use of it, but after that, it's rather redundant.

[true_shinken]

I do care about trying to hash out the most consistent, usable set of rules about how it works, so everyone has a clear understanding about what they can and can't do with the lash. I'd prefer that that set of rules be consistent with the RAW, because otherwise we're not quite optimizing Pyrokineticist, we're optimizing a houseruled pyrokineticist, who has abilities that function differently than the actual class.

Couldn't agree more with you.

[Pechvarry]

If 2-3 translations could be set out (and none of them too horrendously overpowered comparatively), maybe contestants could just specify in their entry how they're treating it? It wouldn't be the first time people unveiled builds with parts of the build open to interpretation.

I'm thinking 2 schools of thought: It's a whip that uses dex, or it's a weapon-like spell. I suppose the latter is nearly impossible to powergame, though?

[WinWin]

IMHO Fire Lash is the least interesting ability. It has some great utility, but loses effectiveness as the build progresses.

Any thoughts on Empowering the pyro's Greater Weapon Afire? Would it apply to all listed abilities? Or would your need Empower Spelllike Ability for each seperate class feature? Would you be able to stack Empowerment with multiple feats on the seperate Psi-Like Abilities?

[Private-Prinny]

I'm thinking 2 schools of thought: It's a whip that uses dex, or it's a weapon-like spell. I suppose the latter is nearly impossible to powergame, though?

I'm thinking a third. Is XPH 3.0 material? The differences could just be a byproduct of the whip being updated between 3.0 and 3.5.

[senrath]

Nope. XPH is 3.5, but it was intended as an update to the Psionics Handbook, which was 3.0.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Hmm, even though it says 'hand afire' need it be barred from some other natural attack?

[senrath]

The ruling is (at least for the purposes of this competition) that natural weapons need Weapons Afire, rather than Hand Afire.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

The ruling is (at least for the purposes of this competition) that natural weapons need Weapons Afire, rather than Hand Afire.

Ah, gotcha.

By the ruling of this competition can only one weapon be afire at the same time?

[WinWin]

Unfortunately the description of Hands Afire specifies the hand. If you have tentacles, you're out of luck. It does allow the attack to be treated as armed however. I guess it would deal subdual damage + fire damage. It would probably stack with cestus also.

I'm not sure if it would allow grappling without an AoO, but the fire damage should still apply to a successful grapple attempt.

edit: As for Weapons Afire, you can have as many as you can wield Afire. You just need to spend the time to activate the ability. For a chaotic monk...that is a lot of time. Flame on.

[senrath]

There's no language in the ability that suggests that you can only have one weapon affected at once. You probably can, provided you spend a move action to ignite each one.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

There's no language in the ability that suggests that you can only have one weapon affected at once. You probably can, provided you spend a move action to ignite each one.

*nods thoughtfully*

Edit: Um... ok, gotta ask. Is the 'fire lash' a weapon?

[MariettaGecko]

To be honest, I'm not particularly good at optimization. Mostly because I'm not familiar with the options available. As it currently stands, I think the idea I have may actually be way under-powered, and/or not work too well for this challenge. I may go ahead and get it going, but I'm not sure on this one...

[Ozymandias9]

Ooh-- this is a good one. I'm still buried in family issues, so I'll be unable to judge or compete, but I will be watching and being highly snobby and judgmental in a non-official sense. Best of luck to everyone.

[Arbitrarity]

Aha, I've found my problem. I optimize too much
Actually though, I have difficulty finding uses for most abilities because I set the bar a bit too high, which makes non-synergistic and not super-powerful abilities (Bolt of Fire, Heat Death) not especially useful.
Sooo... do I drop my external power level and be all "These abilities are awesome!", or do I drop my character concept and focus harder, which leads to less external synergy, probably less originality, and lower power anyways?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Yeah, I can think of a dozen flavorful uses, but optimized... pfffttt.

[Pechvarry]

but I will be watching and being highly snobby and judgmental in a non-official sense.

Just when I found my niche on these boards...

[true_shinken]

Just to clear things out. Dragon Magazine is not legal for this contest, right? How about Dragon Compendium? Or Wizards of the Coast official online material, like Swiftblade?

[arguskos]

Just to clear things out. Dragon Magazine is not legal for this contest, right? How about Dragon Compendium? Or Wizards of the Coast official online material, like Swiftblade?

Dragon Magazine has been confirmed to not be accepted. Dragon Compendium, due to being of fuzzier legality (it's technically an official WotC product, but since it's a compilation of Dragon material, many people dislike it), is debatable, but I won't look badly on it. Online material is acceptable, as far as I know.

[Ozymandias9]

Just to clear things out. Dragon Magazine is not legal for this contest, right? How about Dragon Compendium? Or Wizards of the Coast official online material, like Swiftblade?

Per prior rulings:
Material published online by WotC is fair game, but please link.
Dragon Magazine is out.
Dragon Compendium is "acceptable."

[The Vorpal Tribble]

And the thread fell into thoughtful silence...

[Keld Denar]

Waiting to follow the worms.