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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    I looked at a Maenad Bard/Barbarian/Exotic Weapon Master/Pyrokineticist for a while but - perhaps ironically - dismissed it as being too likely to be the combination most used.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    Had a human ex druid/pyro/blighter/natures warrior. Flaming undead Dire Tiger silliness.

    Thri-kreen Fighter/Ranger/Battle Trickster/Pyro. Multi attack and multiweapon fighting chains. Had something like 17 attacks on a full attack. 14 fire lash, 2 tentacles and a bite.
    Those were actually two of the first things I thought of, so didn't use'em.

    Thri-kreen multi-fun is banned in my games to. It seems every time I run a psionic campaign someone wants to be like a thri-kreen monk doing all sorts of stuff that requires an hour with a calculator just to attack


    I'm really surprised nobody used a Catfolk. +4 Dex, +2 Cha and other coolness for +1 LA is nice.

    Jaebrin from MMV is also awesome for +2 Cha with quite a few tasty abilities.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-24 at 06:54 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    *coughMICpg102cough*
    If you are referring to the Gauntlets of Energy Transformation, there's several problems with that...

    1) it only works 3/day. Considering how common Fire is, that's not enough.

    2) it only works on weapons you wield. Just fine for Weapons Afire/Greater Weapons Afire, but not for changing the actual Flame Lash, much less any of the other class features

    3) It makes it... not fire. This does not bypass fire immunity, it makes you not a pyro. Totally unacceptable.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    A Searing Spell equivalent I'm sure has crossed some minds here, but that kinda thing just doesn't seem to go much with the fluff of psionics.

    Now, I can completely imagine a psion being able to ramp it up into plasma.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    My build was a Silverbrow Human Bard4/DragonShaman1/Monk2/PsyWar1/Pyro8/SeekeroftheSong4. The illegitimate son of a fire eyed bard and an abstinent monk ice princess. I used Dragon Shaman to turn the Dragonfire inspiration into cold damage, and Versatile Unarmed Strike along with Snowflake Wardance + Knowledge Devotion -- Using the fact that Monk's unarmed strike can be enhanced as natural and manufactured weapons. By level 16 his unarmed strikes did 1d8+7d6[Cold]+8d6[Fire]+KnowDev.

    Dragon Shaman's Fast Healing Aura + Song of Life (Wands of CLW earlier) made him sufficient for Out of Combat healing.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Think outside of the box. Even a fire immune foe will be affected by a burning building crashing down around them, heat turning the ground into molten glass and potential suffocation from all of the noxious gases produced. Of course that will effect the pyro as well, but if you're gonna play with fire...

    Otherwise, spam heat death until they fail their save. It is neither a (fire) or (death) effect. It should be able to take down most everything with a physical form as written, even corporeal undead and elementals.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    Otherwise, spam heat death until they fail their save. It is neither a (fire) or (death) effect. It should be able to take down most everything with a physical form as written, even corporeal undead and elementals.
    Everything with internal fluids that is. As a DM I'd rule out earth and fire elementals. Skeletons too, though zombies should be fair game.

    Edit: Undead are immune.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-24 at 09:44 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Everything with internal fluids that is. As a DM I'd rule out earth and fire elementals. Skeletons too, though zombies should be fair game.
    Bones burn.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Bones burn.
    Yup, so they take 4d6.

    However, since it requires a Fortitude save then they cannot be outright killed by it (outside of the 4d6 fire).

    So except for the 4d6, undead and constructs are immune.

    Skeletons don't have internal fluids anyways.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-24 at 09:40 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    A couple of extra points. Once you have fire resistance (even one point), you are unaffected by lava and similar fluids. It still poses a drowning hazard.

    The elemental rime poison from complete scoundrel, gives targets a vulnerability to cold for a short time. That could potentially override immunity. It is expensive though, so make friends with a Shaper or Conjurer with the creation line of spells. It is described as naturally occuring...Just not on the Prime.

    edit: Flesh, Brain and Blood Golems would be succeptable to heat death. Stone and Iron, probably not. All depends on whether the power can effect objects. I can totally see spontaneous combustion...Unfortunately, that is not how it is written.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-07-24 at 09:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    edit: Flesh, Brain and Blood Golems would be succeptable to heat death. Stone and Iron, probably not.
    A pyrokineticist who reaches 9th level can expend her psionic focus and take a full attack action to raise the internal temperature of one living creature within 30 feet to lethal levels.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-24 at 09:47 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    Otherwise, spam heat death until they fail their save. It is neither a (fire) or (death) effect. It should be able to take down most everything with a physical form as written, even corporeal undead and elementals.
    A pyrokineticist who reaches 9th level can expend her psionic focus and take a full attack action to raise the internal temperature of one living creature within 30 feet to lethal levels.
    No.
    (Lurk'd)
    And Gauntlets of Energy Transformation totally work with the Lash. You're wielding it, and we've decided to treat it like a whip for everything except the literal "ranged touch attack" part. Thus, it qualifies as a melee weapon you are holding, and changes one type of elemental damage produced into another.
    Limited uses is overcome in the simplest way possible: Lots of pairs of gauntlets. At the absurdly low cost of 1000 gp/pair, you can get a lot of them, and each can last up to 3 rounds.
    The last objection is mildly harder to overcome. Consider burning your foe with acid, or simply biting the bullet.

    Consecrate Spell-like Ability doesn't quite work, lacking the qualifying text of Empower and Quicken Spell-Like ability that lets them function with psi-like abilities. Tragic. If it did, half damage is divine, and slices through immunity.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2010-07-24 at 09:48 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Technically, the golems are alive. The elemental spirit that animates them anyway...Unfortunately, flavour text is trumped by their statistics.

    You are correct. I forgot about the living creature clause.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    So to clarify, only nonliving, fire-immune creatures are the bane of the high level Pyrokeniticist?

    edit: Upon reading the Conflagration ability, I understand my confusion. That ability does not specify a living creature. It is a (fire) effect that kills creatures. Technically, those immune to (death) effects would be succeptible. How the psi-like abilities of the Pyro fuction against creatures with spell resistance or magic immunity is still a mystery. The class itself has no caster or manifester level. The assumption has to be made that the abilities ignore spell/psi resistance.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-07-24 at 10:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Man, I'm kinda glad I didn't get my entry in, because it was a lot like the Forgotten.

    Hellbred, Charisma focus, Paladin and the like. I just focused more on the Charisma synergy and TWF aspect - Lurk/Paladin of Freedom into Pyrokineticist and ending with Elemental Warrior (Fire) because there is no such a thing as too much fire damage.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    How the psi-like abilities of the Pyro fuction against creatures with spell resistance or magic immunity is still a mystery. The class itself has no caster or manifester level. The assumption has to be made that the abilities ignore spell/psi resistance.
    They're like any other creature's inherent abilities. Other creatures produce fire that spell resistance doesn't apply to because there is no spells being cast.

    You're your own fire elemental.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-24 at 11:08 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    As an aside, I'm not sure that the Ordered Chaos feat works the way people thinks it does. I was going to use it for Kensai on one of my builds, but noticed that it only allows you to be considered chaotic for Abyssal Heritor feats. Was there some errata or something?
    RAW for OrderedChaos

    Benefit: Your alignment is not affected by the Abyssal heritor feats you possess. Spells and effects that are keyed to alignment affect you as if you were chaotic, as well as your actual alignment. For example, you become immune to spells such as chaos hammer and word of chaos, you could wield an anarchic weapon without fear of gaining a negative level, and you could take the Primordial Scion feat despite its chaotic alignment prerequisite.
    The last section of that, about Primordial Scion, seems to suggest it means you ignore, or are treated as Chaotic for, "Chaotic Alignment" prereqs. It specifies your alignment isn't affected by heritor feats, but that refers to the separate rule that once you get two Heritor feats you become Chaotic no matter what. No-where does it say that the 'affect you as if you were chaotic' ability only refers to that subset of feats.

    Sure, it's a liberal interpretation of the wording, but IMO it works RAW, and it facilitates a fairly arbitrary requirement at the cost of a feat. It's up to the judges to decide if it's too cheesy or not
    Last edited by IdleMuse; 2010-07-24 at 01:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    It's not a mechanical prerequisite but a personal one. To properly flame you have to have a little chaos in your soul.

    If you take a feat so that you seem to have chaos, that doesn't mean you have a chaotic personality, just your heritage gives you overtones of it.

    I'd personally knock the teeth out of anyone who tried that nonsense in a game I DM'd

    Why not a monk rogue for flurry of sneak attacks while we're at it? That is just pure abuse in my mind, and a really weak one at that

    Edit: Oh, I see now that it was used in the competition... well, no offense to the author then. Mostly. Sort of. Kinda.
    Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble; 2010-07-24 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Edit: Oh, I see now that it was used in the competition... well, no offense to the author then. Mostly. Sort of. Kinda.
    Talk about fumbling a diplomacy check, Vorpal ^^
    Also, Rogues could easily flurry sneak attacks via Shou Disciple, Exotic Weapon Master or Eagle's Claw Flurry.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Talk about fumbling a diplomacy check, Vorpal ^^
    Do I at least get a bonus to an Intimidate check?

    Also, Rogues could easily flurry sneak attacks via Shou Disciple, Exotic Weapon Master or Eagle's Claw Flurry.
    Yeah, yeah, but my point is still made

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    And Gauntlets of Energy Transformation totally work with the Lash. You're wielding it, and we've decided to treat it like a whip for everything except the literal "ranged touch attack" part. Thus, it qualifies as a melee weapon you are holding, and changes one type of elemental damage produced into another.
    Nope. They affect the elemental damage done by weapon enhancements. Not the base weapons themselves, much less PLA's. It would affect the Weapon Afire on the lash, but not the lash itself.
    Limited uses is overcome in the simplest way possible: Lots of pairs of gauntlets. At the absurdly low cost of 1000 gp/pair, you can get a lot of them, and each can last up to 3 rounds.
    I'd prefer to not have an entire haversack full of nothing but pairs of gloves. and I'd prefer to not have to switch out my gloves mid-fight. Considering how long it takes, it wouldn't be... practical.
    The last objection is mildly harder to overcome. Consider burning your foe with acid, or simply biting the bullet.
    A poor substitute at best, and you still aren't burning things...
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-07-24 at 05:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    I did have a warlock/ jaunter/ pyrokineticist, the whole point of the build was to bounce around and use area affects like Miasmic Cloud and Conflagration to hinder and hurt multiple opponents at the same time.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Yeah, yeah, I'll post scores in a day or two. Life has been... an issue recently.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Are all judge sits filled? I couldn't get my build done but I'd still like to participate.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Nope. They affect the elemental damage done by weapon enhancements. Not the base weapons themselves, much less PLA's. It would affect the Weapon Afire on the lash, but not the lash itself.
    When you activate the gauntlets, you change one type of energy damage produced by a melee weapon you hold into another type of energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, or fire) for 1 round
    I'm not seeing anything to do with weapon enhancements there.

    I'd prefer to not have an entire haversack full of nothing but pairs of gloves. and I'd prefer to not have to switch out my gloves mid-fight. Considering how long it takes, it wouldn't be... practical.
    You could use a different pair of gloves each encounter, for 3 rounds/fight of immunity penetration. Better than nothing, and at a cheap price.

    A poor substitute at best, and you still aren't burning things...
    You can't burn fire elementals without Searing Spell or Consecrate spell. And the latter is just holy damage, not fire.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    You could use a different pair of gloves each encounter, for 3 rounds/fight of immunity penetration. Better than nothing, and at a cheap price.
    Only it's not immunity penetration, it's changing the elemental flavor. Which is not the same thing at all. It would likely score you 0 from the judges in both Elegance AND Use of Secret Ingredient, so I don't see as how anyone in the contest would be interested in it.

    Sometimes, you just want to light a fireproof cigar. Not freeze it, or shock it, or smash it. And even if you would settle for it, you are generally wanting to do it more than three times per encounter.

    Sorry, but your suggestion is about as sound as offering a suggestion for someone to take 11 levels in Monk when they ask for some way to increase their damage output... citing the higher unarmed damage and flurry numbers as reasons.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Only it's not immunity penetration, it's changing the elemental flavor. Which is not the same thing at all. It would likely score you 0 from the judges in both Elegance AND Use of Secret Ingredient, so I don't see as how anyone in the contest would be interested in it.

    Sometimes, you just want to light a fireproof cigar. Not freeze it, or shock it, or smash it. And even if you would settle for it, you are generally wanting to do it more than three times per encounter.

    Sorry, but your suggestion is about as sound as offering a suggestion for someone to take 11 levels in Monk when they ask for some way to increase their damage output... citing the higher unarmed damage and flurry numbers as reasons.
    I really wouldn't go that far. It's not ideal, but it's still simply a way to work around the mechanical deficiencies of the class. As long as it's merely presented as such and isn't a core feature of the build, it's not a huge issue (at least to me, but I'm just a spectator this round).

    Also, the fact that the web content adaptations aren't allowed doesn't mean that the pyrokineticist can't ever use anything but fire, ever, at all. The decision to exclude them was, to my understanding, an issue of the facts that:
    a) All the energy variants aren't of the same effective utility at higher levels of optimization
    b) The contest would likely have seen a rather large number of Sonokineticists and Acetokineticists relative to the core class.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-07-25 at 12:10 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Elemental Rime bestows vulnerability to fire. It is a contact poison, so it will not affect some creatures, but worth the cost for a high level Pyro.

    I am sure there are other means of bestowing vulnerability. If the energy substitution feat could be applied to spells, then that would benefit a Pyro. Unfortunately, that would require a lot of dumpster diving to gather all of the spells that could be modified. Relying on an energy substitution wand or scroll puts you in the same boat as relying on gauntlets of energy transformation. The theme of the character is compromised a little bit less though.

    I am not too fussed though. Within it's focus, the Pyrokineticist is a strong prestige class. It has a few methods of circumventing Resistances or Immunities via it's capstone, but is still very reliant on dealing one type of damage. It is not CoDzilla strong or as versatile as Batman, but I am ok with that.

    edit: I flipped though my books and could find nothing that gives energy vulnerability. Not with the spells I looked at anyway. There may be some Psionics that allow this, or some spells in splatbooks I do not own. Bestow Curse might bestow a vulnerabilty, or remove Immunity, but that would be DM discretion. I know I have seen it somewhere...

    edit 2: Energy Vulnerability, PHB 2. Cleic 3, Sor/Wiz 3. Delivery via Scroll, Wand, Potion or Spell storing weapon. Only affects 1HD per caster level. Energy Manipulation, CPsi. Psion/Wilder 5. Target creatures energy abilities are suppressed/cause it untyped damage when it uses them. Still retains it's type though.
    Last edited by WinWin; 2010-07-25 at 02:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    I really wouldn't go that far. It's not ideal, but it's still simply a way to work around the mechanical deficiencies of the class. As long as it's merely presented as such and isn't a core feature of the build, it's not a huge issue (at least to me, but I'm just a spectator this round).
    I agree with this.
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