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    Default [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Iron Tortoise

    Laine Blackwall, an Iron Tortoise disciple

    The discipline known as Iron Tortoise rose up from the need to protect one's self and allies from harm during wartime. Dwarven phalanx fighters knew that their shield protected them as much as their brother, and that a sturdy shield wall could repel almost any harm. Masters of this form of combat came together over the years and traded secrets to their forms and fighting styles that came from many kingdoms ranging from dwarves and men, and many wars, until at last a style of fighting was born. The Iron Tortoise, as it was called, was named this due to it's implacable defensive nature. Blades, arrows, and even spells can be turned aside by a master of this discipline, for both the martial adept and for his allies.

    Iron Tortoise disciples learn that their discipline requires their defensive stances to be perfect; they must not be budged from their spot unless they choose to move from them. Shield fighting being as it is, requires them to bear a stout shield in one hand and a swift weapon in the other to strike at their foes with. They also learn that they must be prepared for anything, as well as having perfect footing. To this end, the Iron Tortoise discipline's associated skill is Balance, and its associated weapons are the shield, shortsword, shortspear, handaxe, battle axe, dwarven waraxe, and the longsword.

    (Crusaders may replace Stone Dragon with this discipline)

    Author's Notes: All Iron Tortoise maneuvers require use of a shield in one hand. Animated shields are not allowed as they do not allow the full range of motions required to use these maneuvers. Tower shields may be used, but cannot be used to perform shield bash maneuvers.

    Addendum: This is a repost of this discipline; I've deleted the old one. I've done some significant edits to it, as the old thread became, well, old, I am reposting it. This is another Libram of Battle discipline, so understand it's meant as a replacement book for the Tome of Battle, and they will not interact together as intended by the author.
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-07-16 at 10:44 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB, Discipline]

    Maneuver List

    1st level
    Snapping Strike: Strike- Melee attack which deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.
    Angering Bite: Strike- Melee attack that causes opponent to suffer -4 to hit any target but you.
    Stance of the Defending Shell: Stance- Gain a bonus to shield AC based on initiator level (+1 AC/ 2IL, max +10)
    Iron Shell: Counter- Deflect an enemy melee or missile attack with shield with an opposed attack roll.

    2nd level
    Enraging Strike: Strike- Melee attack deals an additional 10 points of damage, chance to make target rage and attack you.
    Tortoise Trip: Strike- Melee attack allows a free trip attempt.
    Turtle Shell Wall: Counter- Provide shield bonus +4 to adjacent ally's AC.
    Tortoise Taunt: Boost- Point out a single enemy and take an aggressive posture forcing the enemy to attack you on a failed Will save.

    3rd level
    Greater Snapping Strike: Strike- Melee attack that inflicts an additional 4d6 points of damage, bypasses DR.
    Defensive Shell: Boost- Subtract 5ft of movement per +2 to AC.
    Mirror Shell: Counter- Make an opposed attack roll plus shield bonus to AC vs an enemy spellcaster's CL to deny the effects of a targeted spell on you.
    Iron Tortoise Stance: Stance- Increase reach for attacks of opportunity while in this stance by 5ft, make additional attacks of opportunity.

    4th level
    Smashing Shell: Strike- Make a shield bash that catches an opponent flat-footed, inflicts shield bash damage plus an additional 4d6 damage, chance to daze.
    Snapping Riposte: Counter- If an opponent misses an attack or is successfully countered, make a counter attack with a +2 bonus to hit.
    Taunting Turtle: Boost- All successful melee attacks this round incite a cumulative -4 penalty on attacks to attack any target other than you for the target's turn.

    5th level
    Vicious Snapping Strike: Strike- Melee attack inflicts an additional 5d6 points of damage, halves opponent's movement speed for their turn.
    Stance of the Turtle Knight: Stance- Stance that makes you difficult to move, grants improved uncanny dodge, and improves shield bonus by +2 so long as you do not move.
    Shell Shock: Strike- Make a powerful shield bash that inflicts an additional 4d6 points of damage and knocks opponent prone 20ft away.

    6th level
    Quick Snap: Counter- When struck in melee, may make an immediate counter attack and strike does double damage.
    Snapping Turtle Charge: Strike- Make a charge attack with your shield, strike inflicts an additional 8d6 points of damage and may knock opponent prone.
    Steel Shell: Counter- Make an opposed attack roll plus shield bonus against opponents attack to negate it, if failed gain DR 20/- against the attack.

    7th level
    Cyclonic Shell Crush: Strike- Make a shield bash attack against all adjacent enemies which inflicts an additional +4d6 points of damage and has the chance of dazing.
    Iron Defender's Riposte: Counter- Make an opposed attack roll plus shield bonus against a foe's attack against an ally; if successful then the attack is negated and you make a counter attack with shield at +4d6 points of damage.
    Unlimited Aggression: Boost- By assuming an aggressive posture, force all enemies within 60ft to attack you if they fail a Will save.

    8th level
    Glorious Shell Shock: Strike- Powerful shield bash that inflicts an additional +5d6 points of damage to up to three adjacent enemies and sends them hurtling 20ft away.
    Adamantine Shell: Counter- Make an opposed attack roll plus shield bonus against opponents attack to negate it, if failed gain DR 50/- against the attack.
    Adamantine Turtle Lord's Stance: Stance- Halved movement, but shield automatically blocks line and cone effects, +2 AC to shield bonus.

    9th level
    Invulnerable Shell of the Iron Tortoise: Counter- Negates any and all damage, spells, or harmful effects that would effect the initiator and his adjacent allies.
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-07-21 at 08:12 AM.
    Chris Bennett
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB, Discipline]

    Maneuver Descriptions

    1st level
    Spoiler
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    Snapping Strike
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature
    Duration: Instant

    Initiates of the Iron Tortoise school learn basics of the style, and that is to keep one’s shield high and one’s weapon low. By making a quick and vicious strike, the adept may drive home a potent blow. Make a melee attack, and if successful, this attack inflicts an additional 1d6 points of damage.

    Angering Bite
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature
    Duration: One round

    By making a quick shield bash, you taunt and aggravate your foe into striking at you solely. Make a melee shield bash attempt upon a creature, and if successful, they suffer a -4 penalty on attack rolls to attack any other target but yourself. Targets of this maneuver must possess an Intelligence score of 1 or more.

    Stance of the Defending Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Stance)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    An Iron Tortoise initiate learns a valuable stance that forms the core of their discipline, that being the nature of the Defending Shell. By focusing one’s attention to defense with their shield, their martial skill improves their defense. The martial adept gains an additional +1 bonus to his shield AC bonus for every 2 initiator levels he possesses (minimum of +1 to a maximum of +10).

    Iron Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You

    A shield is used for defense primarily, as is the shell of the humble turtle. It turns aside harm, and the shield of an initiate can do the same thing. Make an opposed attack roll using your shield (base attack bonus + Strength modifier + shield AC bonus) against your enemy’s attack roll to deflect a single enemy’s melee or missile attack (that is not a spell or power).


    2nd level

    Spoiler
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    Enraging Strike
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 2
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature of Intelligence 1 or higher.
    Saving Throw: Will save (partial)

    The defensive nature of the Iron Tortoise teaches the initiate to protect his allies, and to do so, he must focus the attentions of his foes on him. Make a melee attack, and if successful, the strikes inflicts an additional 10 points of damage. The aggravating pain of this wound can cause a foe to react violently at the initiator, forcing him to make a Will save (DC 12 + Intelligence modifier) or he must attack him at his next available action. This attack can be of the target’s choice, but he must attack the initiator. Additionally, he gains a +2 morale bonus to attack the initiator of this strike due to the anger incited by the character.

    Tortoise Trip
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 2
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature

    The turtle, when it on it’s back, is helpless to defend itself and is immobilized unless it can right itself. The disciple of this discipline learns to use this inspirational creature’s weakness as a potent weapon by making a low and powerful strike that may knock his opponent prone. If your melee attack is successful you automatically gain a free trip attempt against that target without provoking attacks of opportunity (on a failed trip attempt, the enemy also does not gain the ability to attempt to trip the initiator in return).

    Turtle Shell Wall
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 2
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: 5 feet
    Target: One adjacent ally

    The Iron Tortoise initiate has quick reflexes and a strong shield with which to defend his allies. Use of this counter allows you to provide your shield bonus to AC +4 to an adjacent ally’s AC as a shield bonus (which stacks with any shield bonus they may possess).

    Tortoise Taunt
    Iron Tortoise (Boost)
    Level: 2
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: 30ft
    Target: One creature of Intelligence 3 or higher.
    Saving Throw: Will negates

    The initiator points out an enemy on the field of battlefield and through words, postures, or gestures insults and infuriates the foe to attack him at his next available action with whatever means he possesses. The target makes a Will save (DC 12 + Intelligence modifier) or he must attack the initiator on his next action in some form or fashion. On a successful save, the target still suffers a -2 penalty to attack any other target but the initiator. This maneuver only effects creatures with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher.


    3rd level

    Spoiler
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    Greater Snapping Strike
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 3
    Prerequisites: 1 Iron Tortoise Maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature

    A decisive strike is often times what ends a battle or duel, and the adept of the Iron Tortoise knows to keep his wits about him and wait for the moment to strike hard and strike true. Make a melee attack, and if successful, this strike inflicts an additional 4d6 points of damage and ignores the creature’s damage reduction (if any).

    Defensive Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Boost)
    Level: 3
    Prerequisites: 1 Iron Tortoise Maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 round

    By focusing on defense, you sacrifice your movement speed. You may voluntarily reduce your movement speed by 5ft increments to increase your shield bonus to AC by +2 per 5ft reduced. You may reduce your movement speed by no more than half.

    Mirror Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 3
    Prerequisites: 1 Iron Tortoise Maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You

    By angling one’s shield correctly and stepping into an enemy spell’s effect, he may deflect the power of the spell that targets him. Spells or powers countered by this ability must be targeted spells (one cannot Mirror Shell a fireball as, for example, it must be specifically targeted at the character) with the martial adept as the target. The character makes an attack roll using his base attack bonus plus his shield bonus to AC opposing the enemy’s caster level check. If successful, the spell or effect is negated.

    Iron Tortoise Stance
    Iron Tortoise (Stance)
    Level: 3
    Prerequisites: 1 Iron Tortoise Maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    This stance allows the adept of the Iron Tortoise greater offensive ability while still remaining on the defensive, protecting himself and his charges. Like the extending neck of the snapping turtle, the reach of the martial adept increases to meet his foes as they try to evade him. The martial adept gains +5ft reach for making attacks of opportunity and may make a number of attacks of opportunity equal to his Intelligence modifier per round.


    4th level

    Spoiler
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    Smashing Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 4
    Prerequisites: 1 Iron Tortoise Maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature
    Saving Throw: Fortitude partial

    The Iron Tortoise adept is a master of using his shield both for offense and defense. By bringing his shield to bear and stepping in to meet a foe with a powerful and unexpected shield bash, the adept may daze his foe into defeat. The character makes a shield bash attempt against his opponent, if successful this strike inflicts an additional 4d6 points of damage and has a chance to daze the target on a failed Fortitude save (DC 14 + Intelligence modifier).

    Snapping Riposte
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 4
    Prerequisites: 1 Iron Tortoise Maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Target: One creature

    By searching for openings in an opponent’s defenses when they reach to attack, the Iron Tortoise adept learns to bite through this opening to score a vicious wound. If an attacking opponent misses you, you may make an immediate counter attack against them with a +2 bonus to hit.

    Taunting Turtle
    Iron Tortoise (Boost)
    Level: 4
    Prerequisites: 1 Iron Tortoise Maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 round

    By making aggravating wounds and aggressive, intimidating postures, your attacks for the round possess an unusual amount of threatening power. Each successful melee attack you make causes those hit by those attacks to suffer a -4 cumulative penalty on attack rolls against any target except you.


    5th level

    Spoiler
    Show
    Vicious Snapping Strike
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 5
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature

    A skilled adept of the Iron Tortoise knows the secrets to slowing his opponents down to match his heavily armored speed. By landing a powerful, mobility reducing blow, the martial adept keeps his enemy close. Make a melee attack, and if successful, the strike inflicts an additional 5d6 points of damage and halves the opponent’s movement speed for their turn (to a minimum of 5ft).

    Stance of the Turtle Knight
    Iron Tortoise (Stance)
    Level: 5
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    By planting his feet, staying low to the ground with his shield at the ready, the martial adept roots himself firmly in place, immovable. While in this stance, the character may not move from his spot, but gains several benefits for doing so. He gains a circumstance bonus equal to his initiator level to resist being bull rushed, tripped, or overrun, he gains the improved uncanny dodge special ability (with a rogue level equal to his initiator level), and his shield bonus to AC improves by +2. Voluntarily moving ends this stance. This stance ends immediately should the adept move (willingly or unwillingly).

    Shell Shock
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 5
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: One creature
    Saving Throw: Reflex (partial)

    The Iron Tortoise disciple has in his arsenal a stout shield and strong arms, and a will to decisively win a battle. By bringing all of his strength to bear, the Iron Tortoise disciple steps up to his foe with a devastating shield bash that sends him flying. Make a shield bash attempt, if successful, the attack inflicts an additional 4d6 points of damage and knocks the opponent up to 20-ft away where he will land prone (Reflex save DC 15 + Intelligence modifier negates the knock back effect). The initiator may only knock back opponents who are smaller than he, equal in size, or up to one size category larger. The direction to where his opponent is flung is decided by the character.


    6th level

    Spoiler
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    Quick Snap
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 6
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Target: One creature

    Inevitably, a warrior will receive a wound in battle, and when that happens, those skilled in the ways of the Iron Tortoise make the best of it. By briefly trapping an enemy’s weapon within his defenses, the martial adept may deliver a powerful counter attack. If struck in melee combat, the character may make an immediate counter attack which inflicts double damage.

    Snapping Turtle Charge
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 6
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: One melee charge attack
    Target: One creature
    Saving Throw: Reflex (partial)

    By charging forward to gain momentum, the martial adept may make a powerful shield bash that may knock his foes to the ground, crippled with injuries. The martial adept must make a charge attack using his shield, if successful, the strike inflicts an additional 8d6 points of damage and knocks his foe prone on a failed DC 16 + Intelligence modifier Reflex save.

    Steel Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 6
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You

    By steeling himself against an attack, an Iron Tortoise disciple may attempt to negate or reduce an incoming attack. Make an opposed attack roll using your base attack bonus plus shield bonus to AC against the opponent’s attack roll. If successful, negate the attack. If the opposed check is failed by the martial adept, instead gain DR 20/- to resist the attack.


    7th level

    Spoiler
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    Cyclonic Shell Crush
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 7
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: One melee attack
    Target: All adjacent foes
    Saving Throw: Fortitude (partial)

    By making a wide, spinning strike with his shield, the Iron Tortoise master may bash all foes who surround him, teaching them that while he may be surrounded, he will not give up without a fight. Make a shield bash attack against all adjacent foes, each successful attack inflicts an additional +4d6 points of damage and may daze the target on a failed DC 17 + Intelligence modifier Fortitude save.

    Iron Defender’s Riposte
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 7
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: One ally within 20-ft
    Target: One creature

    The Iron Tortoise master is wary of the danger to his charges that his enemies represent, and he is ready to spring into motion to defend them. By using this maneuver when an ally within 20-ft is attacked, the martial adept may rush up 20ft to become adjacent his ally. Once there, he may make an opposed attack roll using his base attack bonus plus his shield bonus to AC to negate the attack to his ally. If successful, the attack is negated and he may make an immediate counter attack against that foe which inflicts an additional +4d6 points of damage.

    Unlimited Aggression
    Iron Tortoise (Boost)
    Level: 7
    Prerequisites: 2 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: All enemies within 60ft with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher
    Saving Throw: Will (partial)

    By assuming an aggressive posture and taunting his foes, the Iron Tortoise challenges all foes to face him if they dare. All enemies within 60ft must make a Will save DC 17 + Intelligence modifier to resist attacking the Iron Tortoise master on their next available action. Victims who fail this saving throw are free to choose how they will attack the Iron Tortoise adept, but they must attack him. Those who successfully save against this maneuver still suffer a -4 penalty to attack any other target but the initiator.


    8th level

    Spoiler
    Show
    Glorious Shell Shock
    Iron Tortoise (Strike)
    Level: 8
    Prerequisites: 3 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: Up to three adjacent creatures
    Saving Throw: Reflex (partial)

    By sweeping his shield in a deadly arc, the martial adept may send up to three adjacent foes flying away with bone-shattering force. Make a single shield bash attempt and apply the attack roll to up to three adjacent foes (who must be adjucent to each other as well); any successful hits to these targets inflicts an additional +5d6 points of damage and sends them hurtling up to 20-ft away (Reflex save DC 18 + Intelligence modifier negates the knock back effect). The initiator may only knock back opponents who are smaller than he, equal in size, or up to one size category larger. The character determines which direction his foes are flung.

    Adamantine Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 8
    Prerequisites: 3 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You

    By seemingly empowering his shield with his will and perfectly setting himself against an attack, the Iron Tortoise master may attempt to render almost any attack against his person harmless. Make an opposed attack roll using your base attack bonus plus shield bonus to AC, if successful negate the attack. On a failed opposed attack roll, instead gain DR 50/- against that attack.

    Adamantine Turtle Lord's Stance
    Iron Tortoise (Stance)
    Level: 8
    Prerequisites: 3 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    This stance represents the Iron Tortoise warrior’s ability for self sacrifice for the defense of others. While in this stance, the character may set his shield against incoming cone and line effects, making an attack roll with his shield against the attack roll or caster level, or hit die of the creature of the ability which is being used (whichever applies, attack roll or hit die for breath weapons for example, or caster level for lightning bolt for another example), if successful, line attacks immediate end upon the character's shield. Cone effects are negated in a line behind the adept from the direction of the attack. Additionally, while in this stance the character gains a +2 bonus to his shield armor class bonus.


    9th level

    Spoiler
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    Invulnerable Shell of the Iron Tortoise
    Iron Tortoise (Counter)
    Level: 9
    Prerequisites: 4 Iron Tortoise Maneuvers
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You, plus any adjacent allies
    Duration: Instant

    The ultimate technique of the Iron Tortoise discipline, the master of this discipline learns to use his unbreakable will to bolster his shield to defend himself and his allies from any attack. He plants his feet holds his shield aloft against the oncoming attacks and weathers the storm, unbreakable. By initiating this counter, any and all damaging or harmful effects that could effect the character and any of his adjacent allies are instantly negated as he and his wards take shelter under his shield and unshakable will. The initiator of this maneuver must be aware of the attack to be able to counter it, thus he must not be caught flat-footed by it.
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-07-21 at 09:58 AM.
    Chris Bennett
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Alright, a while back I posted this discipline and I got some reviews, especially a very lengthy one from Proven Paradox, so I took to heart what he wrote and decided to go through it all and finally got it together enough to post it. Iron Tortoise has gotten some significant revisions to it, so please critique it and tell me what you think of it.

    Thank you!
    -X
    Chris Bennett
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    ...Anything? Sigh... I hate begging for feedback on something, but I'm really interested in seeing if there are holes in this discipline that I can't see as it's author. I am feeling like I have to make a Bleach d20 conversion for a little attention around here

    -X
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-07-18 at 01:46 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    It seems good as far as I can tell p.s. whats LoB ?
    I don't have birthdays. I level up
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by al'raith View Post
    It seems good as far as I can tell p.s. whats LoB ?
    Libram of Battle. It's the completely OGL Tome of Battle that is being written by myself a couple others. The idea is that we take the ToB and toss it in the trash, and instead write something that is going to be actually supported and kept alive, with around 20 different disciplines, new base classes and prestige classes, etc. In the end, I think we're going to end up making it a Pathfinder Compatibility Product, so we'll see in the end.

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    I was mostly fine with everything last time you posted, except for some creative differences. You've fixed the scaling problems with the lower level stances and such, which is good, but I think most of the other complaints about free daze effects and effective Wall of Blades at level 1 will still be there (I'm just fine with the Iron Shell myself).

    It would help if you linked back to the original thread in case someone who posted before wants to check with the old version (or spoiler an update summary in the first post). Additionally, if you've decided to balance against the Libram of Battle project instead of Tome of Battle itself, it would help to link to it, and I wouldn't expect as much response (I haven't been following it at all and had forgotten about it until you mentioned it, for example). I'm guessing since they're replacing the disciplines, the fact that Iron Tortoise steals some thunder from the original ToB disciplines is intentional, but that means people that aren't on that project aren't going to have a frame of reference.

    I'm still liking a shield based discipline and this has got all the basics even if one disagrees with parts of it. And you have an awesome picture.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    I love ToB, and I love homebrew disciplines for ToB. While you're remaking the book as a whole, sure, whatever, the base concept remains the same, and the base mechanics remain the same, so I am still a fan (and from the looks of things, they still overlap pretty concretely).

    Very small nitpicky and potentially frustrating edits:
    Stance of the Defending Shell should specify minimum +2. It looks like you may have meant that it is a bonus of +2, plus an additional +2 for every 5 initiator levels (that would get you a +10 bonus at 20th level, whereas right now you don't reach the +10 bonus until 25th).

    Iron Shell could use a touch of clarification: You define it as an attack roll, which implies you would add your Strength bonus as well. But from the description it sounds like it's a d20 roll, plus your BAB, plus your shield bonus to AC and that's all. This applies to a few other maneuvers as well.

    Instead of "One creature of Intelligence 1 or higher" I think it's slightly more accurate to say "One creature with an Intelligence score." But that's a particularly minor nitpick.

    Enraging Strike: that's 12 + Initiator's Intelligence modifier, yes? Right now, sentence structure implies that it's the target's Intelligence modifier (this applies to some other abilities as well). The +2 to hit bonus is regardless of whether he falls to the rage, right? Perhaps rephrase to make that more clear.

    Rephrase Tortoise Trip to 'If your melee attack is successful you' rather than 'Make a successful melee attack and'.

    Turtle Shell Wall says deflection bonus in the list, and shield bonus in the description. Should be shield in both, I expect.

    Tortoise Taunt: says Intelligence 2 or higher in the details block, but Intelligence 3 or higher in the description. The 2 should be a 3, I assume.

    Defensive Shell: Says +1 per 5 ft. in the small block, +2 per 5 ft. in the full description. I assume it should be +1. It's a little abusable, but not unless you are actively trying to abuse it by boosting your movement speed, so I'd say it's an acceptable (and entertaining) loophole and not worth trying to close. The half speed limit stops it from being actively abusable. Interesting proposal: also unable to take 5 foot steps?

    Mirror Shell is over-effective: your attack roll is, on average, 10.5 + BAB + Shield bonus. If you are, say, 8th level, that probably means something like 20 on average as a low estimate, whereas the caster has caster level 8. It should probably be this attack roll of yours against their caster level check, which might have been what you meant. That's more fair, and will still leave the adept winning the check the majority of the time.

    Iron Tortoise stance says one attack equal to his Intelligence modifier. Is that one extra AOO, or a number of extra AOOs equal to his Intelligence?

    Vicious Snapping Strike is awesome. Again, interesting proposal: target is unable to take 5 foot steps? Stops them from moving away easily, which seems fitting.

    Stance of the Turtle Knight: This should end when involuntarily moved as well.

    Shell Shock seems dangerous, because you can send someone flying off a cliff or whatnot with no save if you can score a hit (which is easier). But it feels kind of unnecessarily restrictive to give them a save as well. So I'm undecided about this one. I guess I'd say leave it as is, making this comment completely unnecessary. It should have a size limit: the target must be the same size or smaller as the initiator. Maybe up to one size bigger if you want.

    Steel Shell seems a little silly, as it does the same as the 1st level maneuver, plus DR 20/-. It feels a little simple/redundant. I like the idea, but I feel like it could be changed somehow to be made a little more different from the earlier maneuver. This goes for Adamantine Shell as well.

    I think Glorious Shell Shock should specify that the three foes must be adjacent to the initiator, and to each other.

    Adamantine Turtle Lord's Stance: I believe there are no cone or line effects which require an attack roll. Dragon breath weapons do not, I believe. Again, seems like it should be caster level check versus attack roll for balance. The shield bonus maybe could be +4 instead of +2, to boost it from the previous stance? Maybe not. (I love this ability. Stopping lines and breaking cones is really damn cool. Well done).




    I love this discipline. It's great. I love unusual weapon disciplines, like Fax's Falling Star archery discipline, and this as a good shield and weapon discipline. It's very well designed, and looks balanced to me. I love the final ability, and the line and cone-cutting defensive stance is a fantastic idea.

    I can really see an adept using Iron Defender's Riposte, and leaping across the field of battle, smashing an enemy's attack down out of the way of his ally, then swinging his shield back up for a crushing blow back up the opponent's head...

    All of the attention grabbing aggression maneuvers are great and well done, fitting, and useful. I have found that it is often a little sketchy how the DM has to usually stop particularly intelligent opponents from simply focusing fire on the squishy ones to avoid repeated, annoying, and anti-climactic deaths. This seems like a great solution.

    Overall, I quite love it. Lots of minor edits to make, but they're basically syntax and consistency issues, to be read over, and fixed, just to make a more usable copy of the class, not to make any real changes.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewalker View Post
    Steel Shell seems a little silly, as it does the same as the 1st level maneuver, plus DR 20/-. It feels a little simple/redundant. I like the idea, but I feel like it could be changed somehow to be made a little more different from the earlier maneuver. This goes for Adamantine Shell as well.
    I actually think it's one of the better parts of the discipline. Fully blocking attacks is the core of what I'd expect from a shield discipline, but there's really nowhere to go from "beat their roll". So instead, the better you get, the less damage you take even if you don't manage to fully block the blow.

    Adamantine Turtle Lord's Stance: I believe there are no cone or line effects which require an attack roll. Dragon breath weapons do not, I believe. Again, seems like it should be caster level check versus attack roll for balance. The shield bonus maybe could be +4 instead of +2, to boost it from the previous stance? Maybe not. (I love this ability. Stopping lines and breaking cones is really damn cool. Well done).
    Ah yes, this was something I should have brought up as well. I think the original version was a counter that didn't require a role, but for a continuous stance that's too much. I'd also limit it to once per round. "The adept may make a roll using his BAB +shield bonus once per round against the caster level of a spell, or against 1d20+HD of a creature using a supernatural ability, and if successful..."

    All of the attention grabbing aggression maneuvers are great and well done, fitting, and useful. I have found that it is often a little sketchy how the DM has to usually stop particularly intelligent opponents from simply focusing fire on the squishy ones to avoid repeated, annoying, and anti-climactic deaths. This seems like a great solution.
    Agreed. This discipline uses a combination of making it harder for foes to hit your allies, and striking back hard enough to make them consider you a major threat that needs dealing with, which are both needed if you want to be the tank.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Stances can't be replaced, and thus are usually supposed to remain useful (including by scaling), having a higher level stance that makes a previous one obsolete is therefore questionable. One concept would be to make the low level stance scale into the higher level one automatically (and gradually... I despise unnecessary granularity) and simply drop the higher level stances that are made redundant by this. Another would be to power up the higher level stances but make the lower level stances they replace as specific pre-requisites to them.

    EDIT September, 2010 (for cross-referencing purposes): Another Shield based discipline, Steel Mountain.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-08-28 at 04:02 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Is there a reason this isn't available to warblades? It would be so satisfying for them.
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    biggrin Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    I like shields. I hate animated shields, and I hate bucklers. Let's get to business. (prepare yourself. this is long)

    1st
    Iron Shell - Will this scale well? Is this intended? It may be better to word it as simply "make an opposed attack roll with your shield, as if making a shield bash" and then stating the shield bonus to AC is a bonus. But then, I suppose it's pretty easy for this character to eventually get +18 shield bonus to AC.

    2nd
    Tortoise Trip - Most abilities that grant trip attempts have a line exempting the user from counter-trips (the opportunity for the opponent to trip you if you fail to trip them). It'd be nice to specify one way or another for this.

    Turtle Shell Wall - As with Devoted Spirit's Shield Block, I'd suggest changing this to an untyped AC bonus. This way, you don't have to create an exemption for bonus stacking.

    Enraging Strike and Tortoise Taunt
    a Strike and a Boost version of the same thing. Not sure I'm a fan. I might suggest moving Enraging Strike up to level 3, removing the bonus to attacks, and in fact reversing it -- even if they succeed their save, they still take a -2 penalty on attacks directed against your allies.

    3rd
    greater snapping strike - damage seems kinda low. Maybe not.

    defensive shell - as a boost, there's no reason not to use this during full round actions (or any time you're not moving anyway). If you state you can only use this while taking actively moving, that's not such a problem. Maybe you intend it to be used when the player has no intentions of moving anyway.

    iron tortoise stance - needs cleaned up wording. typo of "neck" to "next", and I don't know what an extra attack of opportunity equal to his int mod means. You mean 1 additional per point of int mod?

    4th
    Taunting Turtle - following the example of White Raven's AoO-depriving abilities (Douse The Flames and Covering Strike), I think you should extend the penalties of this ability to 3 rounds. After the 1st round, you'd stop stop inflicting attack penalties, but those affected would suffer for them for 2 additional rounds.

    5th
    Shell Shock - this ability works on great wyrm dragons. The end.

    6th - nothing

    7th
    cyclonic shell crush - is silly. But functional and potent. And also silly.

    Iron Defender's Riposte - that's like the entire discipline in one move.

    8th
    Glorious Shell Shock - 3 dragons

    Adamantine Turtle Lord's Stance - I really like this. One big reason tanking tends to fail in D&D is because of how the necessity to be near your allies makes you a big target for AoE.


    -------

    Some thoughts. I think some of the counters are a bit redundant, but you can keep them all. I think some Save counters would not go amiss. One that gives you Mettle and Evasion for a single save might be nice, for instance. More importantly, I'd like to see a Stance or some Counters that help all nearby allies on saves. As I said above, I really like the help in shutting down AoEing your crowd of folks, but it comes very late. Some earlier and more passive stuff could work wonders. For instance, a stance that simply provides adjacent allies with save boosts. You can rationalize Reflex and Will pretty easily, so you may as well toss in Fortitude and say "all saves".

    I'm not a big fan of the many "taunt" type moves. Especially ones with relatively weak DCs (how many tanks can afford a high INT focus for their DCs?) I'd prefer to see more things that tank by virtue of practicality like Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. You have some of this, and I can't really help you with thinking up others. I at least urge you to put in a decent fail condition for the taunts. Basically, every taunt after 1st level should still hamper your foe even on a successful save.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-07-20 at 12:53 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    As before, reading this really makes me want to go play Kingdom of Loathing and play a Turtle Tamer again. Good work, as always.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    I concur with the thought that Warblades should get access to this... which would also sorta address the DC issue, since warblades are INT based.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Made some changes to many maneuvers as suggested by Pechvarry and Icewalker, though I did not agree with all of them (and did not change some of them because of it). I do however appreciate all of the suggestions made and the thumbs up for this discipline.

    As far as why Warblades are not getting this is because of a few reasons. One, the class this is intended for in the Libram of Battle is an Intelligence based warrior that has more in common with Crusader than Warblade. Secondly, the abuse possible with a couple warblades together with these maneuvers gets ridiculous, thus crusader recovery balances it more so. It's not like Martial Study doesn't exist or prestige classes that warblades could qualify for that would benefit from this. And lastly, this is the iconic/signature discipline for the LoB class, just as Jade Throne is a signature discipline for it's class. Think of it like Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart for Crusaders and Warblades.

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Ah... "Int-based class with crusader recovery" basically handles my objection.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Well, I'm not sure how to critique this, because it, like the rest of LoB, is well done but on slightly higher power level than the rest of the disciplines. Looks good though.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Well, I'm not sure how to critique this, because it, like the rest of LoB, is well done but on slightly higher power level than the rest of the disciplines. Looks good though.
    The disciplines are still in beta right now, we're doing beta testing for it in my game. Once the disciplines are completed and the base classes are written, then there will be more capability to balance them. I'm shooting for tier 3 over all.

    Btw, to any who are interested, my forum site is back up (LoB's home site, Sorcerer Studios). If you're interested in an account, sign up there and PM here, fastest way for me to get you verified.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Ah... "Int-based class with crusader recovery" basically handles my objection.
    I thought it might

    These are written with the new classes in mind, BUT they are 100% compatible with the Tome of Battle (at least they're intended as such).

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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

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    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Stance of the Defending Shell
    Iron Tortoise (Stance)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    An Iron Tortoise initiate learns a valuable stance that forms the core of their discipline, that being the nature of the Defending Shell. By focusing one’s attention to defense with their shield, their martial skill improves their defense. The martial adept gains an additional +2 bonus to his shield AC bonus for every 5 initiator levels he possesses (minimum of +2 to a maximum of +10).


    Seems really good at a very early level, but the /5 Initiator levels irks me when you mention a +10 maximum. This would have to make his Initiator level... oh come on brain do some basic math 25, in order to reach the cap? Most abilities in D&D are made in mind of a non-epic leveled campaign, and having it like this just kind of rubs me the wrong way.

    I really love this Homebrew though. Like, a lot.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Having something cap out in Epic just means Epic it doesn't blow up in high Epic... I wouldn't worry about removing it, even if it doesn't matter for pre-Epic play. Besides which I seem to remember some Core spells having caps in Epic.

    I would also consider adding a note that if being used with ToB and not you classes that the maneuvers are Cha based instead of Int based. I suspect everyone will house-rule it that way uf they aren't using your classes anyway, and it would work better with Age of Warriors I think.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Having something cap out in Epic just means Epic it doesn't blow up in high Epic... I wouldn't worry about removing it, even if it doesn't matter for pre-Epic play. Besides which I seem to remember some Core spells having caps in Epic.
    'Having something cap out in Epic just means Epic it doesn't blow up in high Epic'

    Err, I'm sorry could you repeat that?

    I didn't mention removing it, I was simply stating it irks me a little bit, to have a base class have an ability that maxes out in epic levels.

    I don't believe I've seen any spells that max out in Epic levels. I know of spells that continue advancing indefinitely. And beyond that, there are just Epic Spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    If you have a cap that is in Epic territory, then for non-Epic play it, in effect, doesn't have a cap (barring Initiator level boosters, which I can't remember if I have ever seen). The reasons those caps exist is to make things viable at levels past the cap. Adding that option hurts nothing.


    Also, for Core spells that cap out in Epic:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm <- caps out at caster level 25.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Iron Tortoise (v2), a shieldfighter's discipline [ToB/LoB, Discipline]

    I changed Stance of the Defending Shell (again), it's +1 AC for every 2 initiator levels so it will cap at +10 at 20th.

    Enjoy.

    -X

    Edit: Also forgot to add prereq's to the maneuvers, oops, added them!
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-07-21 at 09:58 AM.
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