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    Default Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

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    Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition



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    Change Log
    7/19/2010 - Additions in Red. Changes in Strikeout. Address real problem driving Heroic Edition. Announce major class revisions. Dragon Shaman up in Homebrew!


    Tier 1 Spellcasters can break the game. It's a brute fact. The problems with the Tier 1's aren't the classes themselves, it's their spells. Being able to end or avoid an encounter with a single action is unbalanced and it's a problem when playing in mixed Tier parties with a great disparity bewteen the characters classes. Non-spellcasters can be forced to wear magic items like christmas trees in order to compete somewhere near the casters power level.

    The problem doesn't lie solely in the spells themselves, however. If you examine other non-Tier 1 primary spellcasting classes one of the main differences is the flexibility of the spellcaster. The Wizard is tops because he can learn any Sorcerer or Wizard spell. There is no limit to the characters options, whereas other classes and even other spellcasters have set limits on how many spells they know. Some of the most balanced "primary spellcaster" classes, such as the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, have a very limited number of spells known but are more free in using them.

    This is the idea that the Heroic Edition will try to emulate. Characters have power sources that grant them a limited number of abilities but they are able to bring those abilities into play more often. I will strive to create, modify, or destroy abilities so that while each class shines where it's supposed to, it doesn't make other classes obsolete. That's one of the key components to an enjoyable game - everyone gets to play their part and feel they accomplished something. It's not the same when the Fighter gets that feeling solely because the Wizard held back and let the Fighter have the spotlight. The idea that characters should be designed to work together is one of the core concepts I'm working with.


    So let's get rid of the limitless spells and the mundane magic items and give each class abilities that it can use to actually be useful and fun. Of course, any class can be fun. Enjoying the game is not necessarily dependent on having an optimized character. But having a poorly designed character class can lead to not-fun when the character is teamed up with classes that are more powerful by default.

    It's not Iron Heroes because there is Magic that doesn't try to kill the character when they use it. Each character has their own magic. I suppose it's similar in concept to 4E where each class has a power source, but this isn't as specifically tailored to each class as that system is. What I'm doing here isn't surgery that detailed. More like hacking something apart then sticking it to something else and holding it for five minutes, hoping it will stick when you let go.

    My initial thoughts have changed from simply adding incarnum and initiating to every class. I'll concede it as my first attempt to fix the system. What I think will work better is redesigned classes so that they have unique, special abilities that fit their niche without overshadowing another classes spot.
    There are five basic magic systems at work here. Auras, Bindings, Invocations, Maneuvers, and Meldshaping. No spells. No Magic Marts.

    With Band-Aid Clerics gone the damage and healing rules will need revision. Easy. We're using the Reserve Points variant and some classes have the ability to heal. Abilities that granted a bonus against spells will be changed to grant a bonus versus the above magic systems. Also easy.

    Before we get into the details of how the adaptions will work here's a brief overview of what is removed and what is added.

    {table=head]Removed|Added
    Spells|Redesigning classes
    Magic Marts|Limited Magic Items
    Primary Spellcasters|Reserve Points
    [/table]

    Rules of the Game. (SRD)


    Taking Class.

    There are no Archivists, Beguilers, Clerics, Dread Necromancers, Factotums, Favored Souls, Sorcerers, Spellthiefs, Warmages or Wizards. No Psionics either. (At least for now. The psionics ban isn't permanent, just until we get the base classes sorted out.)

    There are Barbarians, Bards, Binders, Crusaders, Dragon Shamans, Dragonfire Adepts, Druids, Duskblade, Hexblades, Knights, Marshalls, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Scouts, Swordsages, Warblades & Warlocks.


    Making Saves.

    That +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spell and spell-like effects that Dwarves get? It applies now to all spell-like or supernatural abilities. Any other saving throw bonus against spells or spell-like effects works the same way (Hexblades Arcane Resistance, for example).


    Avoiding Damage.

    Characters receive half their Base Attack Bonus as a Dodge bonus to their Armor Class.

    Optionally DM's may use Armor As Damage Reduction variant in addition to the Dodge bonus.


    Healing Damage. (Reserve Points)

    If a character receives any magical healing, that healing is applied first to the character’s lost hit points. Any excess healing left over after the character’s hit points are restored to full normal is applied to increase the character’s current reserve point total (up to its normal maximum). Fast Healing does not heal Reserve Points.

    Ability Drain does not exist. All abilities that reference Ability Drain instead do Ability Damage.


    Magic Items See Post #18 for proposed changes to this.

    There are four kinds of magic items. Magic weapons, armor (& shields), ability score enhancement items, and skill bonus enhancement items. Weapons and Armor may have special abilities in place of enhancement bonuses.

    Here's how magic items are created. Remove all the Item Creation feats. The ability to make a magic item depends on your ranks in the appropriate Craft skill. Weaponsmithing allows you to enhance weapons, Armorsmithing allows you to enhance armors and shields, Wondrous Item allows you to enhance clothing and other items to provide ability and skill enhancement bonuses.

    Crafting the base item follows the standard rules for crafting. Enhancing the item follows a modified version of the magic item creation rules.
    • 1 day per 1,000gp in the item's base price, at least 1 day.
    • Weapon, Armor, & Shield enhancement bonuses require the creater to have at least 4 times the enhancement bonus in ranks in the appropriate craft skill. (+2 Armor requires 8 ranks in Craft: Armorsmithing).
    • Ability enhancement bonuses require the creator to have a minimum number of ranks in craft depending on the enhancement bonus. +2 requires 8 ranks, +4 requires 12 ranks, +6 requires 16 ranks.
    • Skill enhancement bonuses require the creator to have at least 3 times the enhancement bonus in ranks in Craft: Wondrous Item. (+3 bonus to Hide requires 9 ranks).


    There is no XP cost component. Magic items cost half the base price to enhance an item. To improve a magic item's enhancement, find the difference between the new cost and the current cost. Half that difference is the cost to improve the enhancement and it takes 1 day per 1,000gp of the total difference in cost, at least 1 day.

    The DM may choose to include other magic items (rings of evasion, bracers of archery, etc). These items should be rare and cannot be created by the characters.


    Getting Skilled.

    Increase all class skill points by 2. Fighter gets 4, Rogue gets all of them 10. Use Magic Device doesn't exist.


    Fixing Stances.

    The stance acquisition progression for the Crusader & Warblade doesn't work right. A single classed Crusader can't even learn his highest level stance without taking the Martial Stance feat. Crusaders & Warblades now learn new stances at 1st, 5th, 10th, & 16th level.


    Revising Classes

    Classes that need to be redesigned will be modified to fit with the concept of Heroic Edition - everyone has a niche and is good at it, but their class abilities don't render another class obsolete.

    Two changes for the Warlock. Deceive Item is now simply Deceive and allows the Warlock to take 10 on Bluff checks. Imbue Item instead allows the Warlock to enhance magic items as if he had (warlock level +3) number of ranks in the required Craft skill.



    Get Your Magic On.

    This list of abilities will change, but I'll leave it for now as a placeholder.



    List of classes.


    Awaiting Revision.
    Barbarian, Druid, Knight, Marshall, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Scout.

    Playing the Game.

    Soulmelds and Maneuvers/Stances allow the non-casters to compete with the few remaining caster classes, which are limited in scope and function. Each caster class has a specific focus and specific abilities, eliminating the broad access regular spellcasters had. Binders can still choose among the Vestiges, but are still restricted by having a limited amount of abilities to use at a single time.

    There are no Magic Marts because the types of magic items are very limited. Any skilled crafter can enhance an item without paying XP, which means that the characters can enhance items themselves as they gain levels. Reflavor it as strengthening the bond with the item, or being able to invest more soul energy into it, or what have you.

    Without all the spells that characters normally needed to be able to defend against there is a reduction in the need to skyrocket the characters saving throws and defenses. Armor class and attack bonuses between characters should be within reasonable levels of achievment without having to rely on a lucky shot.

    The changes require some foresight by the DM. If none of the characters can Fly or fight at range, a flying creature attacking from range will probably TPK the party. Know what the party can do and what they are able to overcome. Doesn't mean you should make encounters a push-over; they should be challenging but do able. And fun.

    Characters should be able to heal a limited amount, enough to get through two or three encounters. No magic restores Reserve Points, so they are the limiting factor in how many encounters a day the party can handle. Particularly tough encounters, like against opponents that deal ability damage or energy drain, will be hard for the party as there aren't any Clerics around to instantly heal/remove the effect.

    The game is intended to have powerful characters that can do amazing things without some characters being inherently more powerful than others to the point where they break the game. While the addition of meldshaping and initating increase the numbers and options part of the game, removing spells and most magic items helps to reduce it. Hopefully there's a balance. So take these rules and try them out if your group wants to play D&D without worrying about having to balance the Wizards vs the Monk in the party, or wearing 10 different magic items and carrying another dozen or so in your bag of holding. Go out there and slay the monsters, rescue the princess, and get carried through the streets. And take this magic sword. It's dangerous to go alone.

    If you run a PbP game here using these rules please use the [3.5/Heroic] tag, and let me know about it!

    Please comment and let me know what you think!
    Possible questions to ponder:
    • What about the rule changes do you agree with?
    • What about them do you disagree with?
    • Is there a part that doesn't make sense or isn't clearly explained?
    • Any character builds immediately come to mind that break the game?
    • Given these rules what character would you like to play and what type of game would you like to play in?
    Last edited by Chambers; 2013-07-24 at 11:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Does the Fighter still gets all his bonus feats?

    How do racial sub levels and class variants work with this?
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    Does the Fighter still gets all his bonus feats?

    How do racial sub levels and class variants work with this?
    D'oh! All regular class abilities are retained (fighter bonus feats, ranger favored enemy, barbarian rage, etc).

    Substitution levels and class variants replace the standard class abilities, not the additions (either meldshaping or initiating)
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by unnamedhero View Post
    D'oh! All regular class abilities are retained (fighter bonus feats, ranger favored enemy, barbarian rage, etc).

    Substitution levels and class variants replace the standard class abilities, not the additions (either meldshaping or initiating)
    Yeah, figured so from this all, but felt like asking anyway. When it comes to the Fighter, I'm more interested in alterations to the class.

    I see, very well. This all would make for a rather interesting campaign. I like the healing, not too sure about all the class changes since it makes quite many of them alike one another. And Psychic Warrior isn't heroic? Also, magic items don't ever give special abilities, neither passive nor active ones then? Well, I suppose DMs could still throw those in anyways and say those were gifts from the gods, like in many heroic tales of old...
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    Yeah, figured so from this all, but felt like asking anyway. When it comes to the Fighter, I'm more interested in alterations to the class.

    I see, very well. This all would make for a rather interesting campaign. I like the healing, not too sure about all the class changes since it makes quite many of them alike one another. And Psychic Warrior isn't heroic? Also, magic items don't ever give special abilities, neither passive nor active ones then? Well, I suppose DMs could still throw those in anyways and say those were gifts from the gods, like in many heroic tales of old...
    Psionics...could fit. Not sure how to though, since as far as I know there's no Warlock equivalent to the psionics classes.

    Magic Items. Yeah. Forgot to put that in there too. The magic items listed above are what characters can make and find reliably in the world. Other magic items (of the standard 3.5 type) may be rarely placed in the game if the DM wants too.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by unnamedhero View Post
    Psionics...could fit. Not sure how to though, since as far as I know there's no Warlock equivalent to the psionics classes.

    Magic Items. Yeah. Forgot to put that in there too. The magic items listed above are what characters can make and find reliably in the world. Other magic items (of the standard 3.5 type) may be rarely placed in the game if the DM wants too.
    Yeah, I myself thought the complete incarnum/initiating implementation was a bit extreme perhaps, especially with the dumping of tons of other classes. Those that don't get 9th-level spells or powers in the end would need to get booted for this of course, but Duskblade, Psychic Warrior and Lurk could find their place.

    It's a bit unfair to give the Marshal extra stuff while neglecting the Dragon Shaman though. They got a lot of similar things, though Marshal is used more for dips and Dragon Shaman more compared to Dragonfire Adept and called weak in that comparison. Perhaps you could grant them something extra too?

    And I see. Fair enough, those you already mentioned are easier and less head-breaking to make anyway, so people tend to throw those in more in games, unless they got a good bunch of experience (and enough wealth or luck).
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    Yeah, I myself thought the complete incarnum/initiating implementation was a bit extreme perhaps, especially with the dumping of tons of other classes. Those that don't get 9th-level spells or powers in the end would need to get booted for this of course, but Duskblade, Psychic Warrior and Lurk could find their place.

    It's a bit unfair to give the Marshal extra stuff while neglecting the Dragon Shaman though. They got a lot of similar things, though Marshal is used more for dips and Dragon Shaman more compared to Dragonfire Adept and called weak in that comparison. Perhaps you could grant them something extra too?

    And I see. Fair enough, those you already mentioned are easier and less head-breaking to make anyway, so people tend to throw those in more in games, unless they got a good bunch of experience (and enough wealth or luck).
    Without his spells a Duskblade has a lot of useless class features (cast in armor, quick cast, spell power, etc). Adding maneuvers would make it another warrior of which there are plenty already. Same for Psychic Warrior, although maybe both of those classes could be some kind of dual meldshaping/initiating class. I dunno, not sure about the balance on that, or the amount of work needed. Trying to keep as many things as simple as possible.

    Dragon Shamans....Yeah. They're kinda underpowered. What would really be neat would be a revision of the Aura system, both for the Marshall & Dragon Shaman. Then the Marshall wouldn't need maneuvers. Any links to possible Aura homebrews?
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    No beguilers or factotums? I am sad.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    I think this is awesome. But I'd think it was awesomer if I knew anything about Incarnum...

    I dunno any Aura homebrews, by the way. You could look at some revised Marshals, but I don't think many of them did much to the Marshal's aura's except the increase the aura power and the amount of auras known... Most of them just add other abilities or tack on maneuvers.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    I think this is awesome. But I'd think it was awesomer if I knew anything about Incarnum...

    I dunno any Aura homebrews, by the way. You could look at some revised Marshals, but I don't think many of them did much to the Marshal's aura's except the increase the aura power and the amount of auras known... Most of them just add other abilities or tack on maneuvers.
    I've got an idea on how to improve Auras. Expect major changes to be made to the Bard, Marshall, & Dragon Shaman.

    Also, while I like every class having scalable power sources (meldshaping & maneuvers) I don't like simply hacking them onto every class. Some will lose those power sources (the classes above) once I worked out how Auras are going to work.

    Zeta Kai

    Beguilers without spells are basically Rogues, so I didn't see any reason to bring them in. And Factotums could work but I'm not that familiar with them at the moment so I didn't know how to adapt them.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Dragon shaman revision is up! Linky!

    I'm considering dropping the Marshall. If it does stay it will receive a similar treatment as the dragon shaman.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Ok, if you have Binders, how about Shadowcasters?

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearan View Post
    Ok, if you have Binders, how about Shadowcasters?
    Don't have Tome of Magic so I'm not totally up on Shadowcasters, but aren't they use the 'uses per day' model of spellcaster? That's what I'm eliminating in this system.

    ---

    Also updated the main post. Talked about the concept behind Heroic Edition. Expect a lot of changes to the classes - working on the Bard now!
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Looks neat. I'm liking how the math's lining up for streamlined AC/magic items etc.

    As for classes: Leaving Marshal as you have it creates a pretty interesting character that's distinctly different from your dragon shaman. In essence, you've dropped a lot of supernatural flavor and even buffing abilities for higher combat prowess and more situational methods for helping allies (White Raven abuses action economy more than simple +stat. This makes a more situational and interesting party buffer).

    Paladin sticks out, though. As is written, it's a Crusader with slightly less interesting class features. I think it'd be better to give Crusaders Turn Undead and delete Pally entirely. Or go a different direction than ToB with it. For instance, Soulborn meldshaping access.

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    Looks neat. I'm liking how the math's lining up for streamlined AC/magic items etc.

    As for classes: Leaving Marshal as you have it creates a pretty interesting character that's distinctly different from your dragon shaman. In essence, you've dropped a lot of supernatural flavor and even buffing abilities for higher combat prowess and more situational methods for helping allies (White Raven abuses action economy more than simple +stat. This makes a more situational and interesting party buffer).

    Paladin sticks out, though. As is written, it's a Crusader with slightly less interesting class features. I think it'd be better to give Crusaders Turn Undead and delete Pally entirely. Or go a different direction than ToB with it. For instance, Soulborn meldshaping access.
    Here are my short notes for class revisions.

    Barbarian (totem rager)
    • Scrap the Totemist addition.
    • Rage at will, same duration as before.
    • Choose a totem animal and gain different abilities at higher levels that are active when you rage.


    Druid (natural warrior)
    • Scrap the Totemist addition.
    • Unknown other.


    Fighter (weapons master)


    Hexblade (single target melee debuff)
    • Scrap the maneuvers addition.
    • Enhanced Curse ability at will.
    • add benefits vs cursed targets


    Marshall (tactical expert)
    • Tactical Aura's/Motivations. Similar in concept to various stances.
    • add initiating (strikes, boosts, & counters only)


    Paladin (holy warrior)
    • Scrap the maneuvers addition.
    • Enhanced Smite ability at will
    • Add Blessings (personal & party buffs, similar to Aura's)


    Rogue (skillful, tricky)
    • Scrap Incarnate addition.
    • Fold Swashbuckler into Rogue.
    • Other...things. Not sure yet.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Bracers of archery are Wonderous items.

    So are they creatable or not?

    Because you say:
    the DM may choose to include other magic items (rings of evasion, bracers of archery, etc). These items should be rare and cannot be created by the characters.


    Rings aren't wonderous items so I understand that, but the sentence confuses me when you state wonderous items should be rare and not rare refering to the Bracers?

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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    By 'other items' I mean magic items other than the 4 kinds detailed. Items that are more than a magic weapon, armor or shield, stat booster, or skill booster.

    There's no item creation feats, so there's no game difference between magic items in terms of the feats Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Ring, Craft Wondrous Item, etc.

    Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term 'Wondrous Item' for the magic items that boost ability scores and skills. Here wondrous item does not mean what it means in regular D&D, so I think I should choose another term to avoid confusion.

    Edit:

    Been thinking about magic items and such. The consequence of this system means that each character can be reliably expected to craft their own magical gear, either by themselves or by someone in the party. Of course an avdenture can dictate not having the required downtime, but given time characters will simply have all their 4 types of magic items at half cost. With no other type of magic item to spend money on, they will probably spend the saved money on more stat & skill boosters, and now we're back in the same boat of characters wearing a dozen different magic items.

    So given the conclusion that characters will have the highest magical modifiers they can afford, which should be easy because of the lower cost of personally creating them, I think a solution would be revisit how magic items work.

    Thoughts.
    • The four types of magic items remain (weapon, armor, stat, & skill) and a new category is introduced. For now we'll call them Extraordinary.
    • Characters items of these kind automatically increase in power as the characters gain levels, according to the requirements for the Craft skill (number of required ranks to create effect). [rules for this below]
    • There is a lower limit to the number of magic items a character may wear (for example, 2 magic weapons, 1 armor & 1 shield, 2 stat boosters & 3 skill boosters).
    • Extraordinary magic items are magic items that are not magic weapons or armor or grant ability or skill boosts (ring of evasion, bracers of archery, wings of flying). These items generally do not have prices, do not have item creation rules and may not be created by the characters. The DM will adjudicate which items are placed in the campaign and the availability of the items.


    Effects of the above. (in no particular order)
    • Characters have reliable access to the base type of magic items.
    • Characters may have access to other Extraordinary magic items.
    • Characters don't need to spend thousands and thousands of gold to increase their magic items, which means they don't need to earn (read: kill and loot) thousands and thousands of gold. Characters can still be ridiculously rich, but it's no longer a game requirement.
    • Characters have a lower limit on magic items they can wear but can still customize their effects.


    Possible rules for enhancing magic items.



    {table=head]Levels|Weapon & Armor Enhancement
    1-3|+1
    4-8|+2
    9-12|+3
    13-16|+4
    17-20|+5
    [/table]

    {table=head]Levels|Ability Enhancement
    1-4|0
    5-8|+2
    9-12|+4
    13-20|+6
    [/table]

    {table=head]Levels|Skill Enhancement
    1-2|+1
    3-5|+2
    6-8|+3
    9-11|+4
    12-14|+5
    15-17|+6
    18-20|+7
    [/table]

    Note: These are simply for evaluating the progression.

    Hmmm. It appears as though with this system you can't have an enhancement skill bonus higher than +7, or a weapon or armor enhancement higher than +5. I'm okay with that.

    How would this work out in play?

    Character is a level 2 fighter. He's got his grandfathers ancestral longsword (+1 weapon), his exceptional chain shirt he received when he graduated fighters college (+1 armor) and his old pair of riding chaps from when he spent that summer on his grandfathers farm (+1 ride).

    After a few adventures he gains a level. He's now level 3 and the bonus his riding chaps provides increase to +2. Neither his weapons nor armor increase. During one of his adventures he found he himself having to climb a lot, so he took some time and crafted some climbing gloves and shoes. They are really nice (masterwork) so they provide a +2 circumstance bonus and he has taken a special liking to them (the player decides to designate them as one of his magic items) so they grant the skill enhancement bonus appropriate for his level, a +2 enhancement bonus.

    A few adventures later he gains another level and is now level 4. His skill items don't increase and he doesn't have an ability item yet, but his weapon and armor both increase. The player decides to keep the armor as a straight +2 enhancement bonus to armor class, but decides that the fighters ancestral sword has been reawakening itself in while wielded by the fighter and assigns a +1 special ability to it. The weapon is now a +1 Flaming (or any other +1 ability) longsword.

    ---

    That's a simple example but illustrates the process. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Chambers; 2010-07-19 at 09:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
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    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
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    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    I take a different tack towards spellcasting, namely prepared spellcastin than you. Namely I don't elminate it. Instead I modify it heavilly. Instead of spells per day I intend to use "spells prepared". A wizard or archivest may have upward's of seven spells, plus additional slots from feats, partially cast at any one time to be triggered. All spells are retained until cast and a new spell may be prepared in its place. However a single spell can be prepared only once at a time. That said any non-buffing and non-skill duplicating spell with a level equal to one third of the wizard's/archivest's level can be cast three times before being spent.

    {table=head]Level|Maximum spell level|Spells prepared
    1st|1|3
    2nd|1|3
    3rd|2|3
    4th|2|4
    5th|3|4
    6th|3|4
    7th|4|4
    8th|4|4
    9th|5|4
    10th|5|5
    11th|6|5
    12th|6|5
    13th|7|5
    14th|7|5
    15th|8|6
    16th|8|6
    17th|9|6
    18th|9|6
    19th|9|6
    20th|9|7
    [/table]

    On preparing spells.

    In the works of Jack Vance and Roger Zellzany spells wizards could cast could take up to a half-hour or full hour to cast due to the complex mathematical and scientific formulas required. This rendered them mostly useless in combat if it weren't for memorization. Basically in this system of spell casting if you wanted to memorize a spell that would take ten minutes to cast spontaneously you would spend nine minutes to nine minutes and 48 seconds pre-casting 90% to 98% of the spell in your head. The two round to one minute casting time (reserved for highly powerful/complex spells) would only be a fraction of the real casting time thus setting off the spell.

    {table=head]Level|Preparation time|Casting time
    0|
    30 seconds
    |free action
    1st-2nd|
    1 minute
    |standard action
    3rd-4th|
    5 minutes
    |one round, five rounds for non combat spells*
    5th-7th|
    10 minutes
    |two rounds, 1 minute for non combat spells
    8th|
    30 minutes
    |four rounds, 2 minutes for non combat spells
    9th|
    one hour
    |six rounds, 3 minutes for non combat spells
    [/table]

    Now I do plan to use a different spell slot method for wizards though which I'll post in a few hours.

    *Spells like gate, clone, the wish line and animate dead. Of course durations for certain spells would have to be lengthened too.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    I'm trying to stay away from the caster nerf of "spell-casting takes a lot longer/is harder to do." Casters shouldn't be punished for using their abilities; their abilities should be balanced so that they can use them regularly without breaking the game.
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    How is it punishing them to have more powerful take longer to prepare and cast? And by exactly how much would you try to balance spellcasters with non-spellcasters anyway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    How is it punishing them to have more powerful take longer to prepare and cast? And by exactly how much would you try to balance spellcasters with non-spellcasters anyway?
    That 9th level spell takes 6 rounds to cast. That's six rounds that the Wizard can get attacked and has to make concentration checks to maintain the spell. At levels where Wizards are casting 9th level spells it's not unreasonable to be dealing out 100pts of damage, possibly per attack. The Wizard isn't going to 1) Survive long enough to cast the spell and 2) Make the Concentration check DC of 10 + the damage taken to actually cast the spell once the six rounds have passed.

    In answer to your second question, I'm trying to blur the line between what spellcaster and non-spellcaster means. In Heroic Edition there are no spells per day. The spell-like abilities that classes get are modeled on the invocation / aura systems, pretty much. Each class will have one main ability/attack that scales with levels, in addition to other abilities that enhance their focus/concept.

    Each class gets their own version of spell-like abilities, so there isn't a single class that is a non-caster compared to the others. In short, to balance them I eliminated the distinction.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Duskblade Revision. Monk is next - and it will make you want to play a monk. Seriously.
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    Monk Revision. Got thoughts on the Paladin and Knight next.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    Very Interesting, if I do say so myself. Though I still can see the beguiler and Dread Necromancer working in your game if you altered them to be based on your system. How is this possible? Well, you've already managed to fix some spell-per day classes by giving them a system similar to a warlock, so why can't you do the same for Beguilers and DNs? DNs and beguilers both get other abilities besides spells, so, feasibly they could use a warlock-esc SLA based system and still be effective. You would just have to whip up some homebrew invocations, though. Heck, the warlock already gets an Invocation perfect for the DN, called "The Dead Walk" or something like that. And while these classes lack the spamable warlock blast, with an invocation/SLA based system they would still operate rather well since these classes can replace the spammable attack with their own class abilities.

    The reason I suggest this is because by taking out full casters, your losing some very iconic character types. While DNs and Beguilers are not as iconic as say a wizard, Necromancers and Illusionists are both iconic spellcaster types as far as fantasy goes. And while the warlock and dragonfire adapt are fine casters, some people may not like the "your ancestor had some fun with X magical creature, hence you got magic!" flavor of those classes and want to RP a more traditional spellcaster. The beguiler and DN can roughly simulate that kind of character.

    A Beguiler could easily be RPed out as a scholarly mage who uses illusions to confuse and manipulate his enemies. Yeah, he gets the rogue abilities, but that can still fit into the character concept. I mean, I've seen movies where mages have to actually get their hands dirty. Oh, and since wizardly types are typically not big and buff, they would be more apt to fight like a rogue if they ever had to mix it up in melee, so the beguiler can still replicate a "scholarly mage" type well, especially since she's an int based class(Something your game lacks ATM). As for the Dread Necromancer, he's an iconic villain type, and in general a well known type of caster. A Dread Necro even if using a warlock/Invocation "spell" system can be RPed as a student of the dark arts, and again, that provides an alternate flavor to magic beyond the "I got my magic power because my mom had a lot of fun with a dragon/fiend" flavor some people may be turned off by.

    A word of caution, though. If you decide to fix the DN, you should most definitely seriously nutter or outright get rid of Undead Mastery. The Dead walk would get rather insane with that class feature at it's current power level. I mean, there is little that is more overshadowing to everybody around you then having a massive undead army at your command. My take would be for the DN to be more like a warlock using the dead walk. He could get some undead out of his SLAs, but would be more focused on using debuffs, fear effects and hitting people with his scythe and/or damaging class features.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2010-07-30 at 10:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    I agree that with how I've been progressing it is feasible to revise some of the primary caster classes. The ones you mentioned specifically would be easier than straight cleric or wizard, simply because they already have a tighter focus.

    The main post is going to undergo a major revision once I get more of the classes done - formating clean up and revise some of the, er...rule revisions.
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    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition

    I would actually not even bother with the cleric and the wizard. I explained that a person can easily RP a typical scholarly mage character using a Beguiler. As for a cleric, I think the best route for simulating clerics is Paladins. Just allow Paladins variants for most alignments(Paladin of Tyranny, Freedom ect..) and say that Paladins are the official emissaries of their faiths as appose to clerics. You can even give them a limited number of SLAs to represent some divine magic. The actual priestly matters can be handled by typical, robe-wearing lay clergy NPCs. That makes the game more realistic anyway because, seriously, how many fantasy shows have you seen where a priest puts on some full plate and smashes people's heads in with a mace?
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2010-07-30 at 10:08 PM.
    Awesome evil Necro-Cleric Avatar created by Ceika

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    Level 3 Lawful Evil Half-Elf Cleric with the following ability scores...

    Strength- 11
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    Intelligence- 15
    Wisdom- 17
    Charisma- 16

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