Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

[Gorgondantess]

Text:

Spoiler

Show

So, by my opinion, the Paladin is easily one of the worst designed classes in D&D. The soulknife and samurai are both admittedly worse, but the paladin is the most... extreme example. Why? The mechanic of the fall.
Now, honestly, I like the fall. You could just do away with it, remove the alignment requirement and such, and then make the paladin simply a spiritual warrior, but I like it as is. I like the idea of a holy warrior who won't kill an innocent in order to save a whole town, in one of those contrived circumstances people on this forum tend to think up. It's not that the paladin doesn't realize that it would be better to save a town at the expense of the innocent, or doesn't care: it's that the paladin's unwavering faith, the thing that gives him power, tells him that there's another way, and forces him to find it.
So, I'm okay with the fall... but the point of the paladin is that he gains his powers from the fall, from his unwavering faith. In other words: he's powerful.

And this is where WotC failed. Back in AD&D, the paladin was just like the fighter, but flat out better. In 3.5, the paladin is kindof like the fighter, but it doesn't have stuff like the dungeoncrasher variant to make it usable. The point of the fall and the alignment restrictions is a penalty and a restriction to balance out the paladin being more powerful than other fighter type classes.

So, let's succeed where WotC failed. I've seen a lot of paladin fixes, but most of them bring it up to mid-high tier 4: I'm shooting for something that'll be competitive with a CoDzilla.
...Wish me luck.

The Real Paladin

Spoiler

Show

A paladin serves to destroy evil, even after death.

Alignment: A paladin must be lawful good. No exceptions.

In addition, the paladin has a code of conduct.
The Paladin must always act with honor, respect legitimate and just authority (so long as said authority does not command him to commit an evil act), help those in need, never under any circumstances harm an innocent or commit an evil act, and work to uphold the law at all times unless said law would go against the other tenets of the code. A paladin can't kill a baby to save a village. Unless it is justified under the law, killing someone just because they are evil is considered an evil act, and will cause the paladin to fall- all evil creatures deserve redemption. The paladin must have just reason to believe the evil creature in question is going to do him or an innocent harm to harm the evil creatures.
A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts.
A paladin may only kill a neutral creature if they are in the process of attacking the paladin, his allies, or an innocent, or doing something that would help bring about the harm of the paladin, his allies, or an innocent.
The paladin may, under no circumstances, kill a good creature.
Nonsentient creatures do not extend to this clause, though the paladin may not kill a nonsentient creature if it would be illegal to do so.
Any paladin who ceases to be lawful good or knowingly violates this code of conduct is considered to have a charisma score of 1 until proper atonement is made.

The very existence of paladins and a demonstrable cosmic Power of Good presupposes that Good is always possible. It is not possible that there is no better option than killing [a] child. That is the entirety of what it means to be a paladin, or indeed, for Paladins to exist. It means that evil is not necessary, however much the tyrant may delude himself. It means that there is always a Better Way.

It's like asking who would win in a fight between Jesus and Cthulhu--it's a meaningless question, because the existence of one in the universe would, almost by definition, preclude the existence of the other.If the world has paladins, then there is a third option that saves the child and the village. If there is no third option, then there can be no paladins, and it is meaningless to discuss 'falls'.

This is not meant to say that the paladin should always be able to save everyone. Sometimes, circumstances will make that impossible. But he should always try to save everybody, and he should never be required to take an evil action to advance the cause of Good. In a world where paladins are possible, 'necessary Evil' is a lie tempters tell to corrupt the righteous, and the corrupt tell themselves to hide from their own guilt.

So long as the paladin does not fall to such temptations- so long as the paladin tries to find the third option in these situations- the paladin should not fall. This doesn't mean the third option is practical, or even possible, but the paladin should always at least try.


This code may be altered in minor ways, subject to DM approval. In general, however, it must remain strongly lawful good, and be founded in ideals as opposed to practicality.


Abilities: Strength and constitution are important, as they are for any melee class. Wisdom now takes a backseat to charisma- in fact, wisdom has no place for the paladin, aside from skills & will saves.


HD: d12

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Holy Smite, Just Templar | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Turn Undead, Unwavering Devotion | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Divine Grace | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Swift Crusader 1/day, Special Ability | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Justiciar 1/day, Holy Strike | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Turn Demon | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Swift Crusader 2/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Sacrifice 1/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Justiciar 2/day, Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Turn Anarch | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Swift Crusader 3/day | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Special Ability | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Turn Mutant, Sacrifice 2/day | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Justiciar 3/day, Holy Sacrifice | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Swift Crusader 4/day, Special Ability | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Destroy The Destroyer | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Turn Evil | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Holy Surge, Special Ability, Sacrifice 3/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Ineffable Justiciar, Swift Crusader 5/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2[/table]

Class Skills: Concentration, Craft , Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Rope.

Skill Points per Level: 4+Int Modifier.

Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all armor and all shields (including tower shields). Paladins are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as the maul, warmace and bastard sword.

Spellcasting:

Spoiler

Show

A Paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When the table indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited. A paladin begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new paladin level, he gains two new spells drawn from the paladin spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level paladin spell, but could learn a 2nd level paladin spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a paladin knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third paladin level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the paladin "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level paladin spell the paladin can cast. A paladin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Spell List:

Spoiler

Show

Orisons: As a cleric.
1st-4th levels: as a WotC paladin, plus Order's Wrath & Holy Smite as 3rd level spells.
5th level: Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow, Hold Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Seeing, Wall of Fire.
6th level: Antimagic Field, Bull's Strength (mass), Crown of Glory, Dictum, Dispel Magic (greater), Eagle's Splendor (mass), Heal, Holy Word, Power Word: Blind, Sunbeam.

Aura of Good (ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. Any evil creature using detect good on the paladin must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are dazed for 1 round.

Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good. He can tell whether a creature is good or evil at a glance, and he can concentrate to gain the full effects of the spell.

Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level.

Just Templar: The Paladin is recognizable as a servant of justice: they gain a +4 bonus to all ability & skill checks made to sway a judge or otherwise as a part of the legal process.
Additionally, the paladin gains a bonus to diplomacy and sense motive checks equal to 1/2 his class levels: these bonuses stack.

Turn Undead (su): The Paladin may turn undead as a cleric. The paladin may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day. If the charisma modifier is negative, it will subtract from this amount, to a minimum of 0.

Unwavering Devotion (ex): The Paladin is immune to fear, and gains a +4 bonus versus charms and compulsions cast by evil creatures.

Divine Grace (su): The Paladin gains a bonus to all saves equal to her charisma modifier. The Paladin can have a penalty from low charisma.

Swift Crusader (su): a number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may either cast a spell that normally takes a standard action or turn undead (or anything else she can turn) as a swift action.
Additionally, the paladin may expend one use of Swift Crusader to channel a spell through a melee attack, during either a standard attack or a full attack action.

Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin gains a special ability chosen from the pool at the bottom of the page.

Justiciar (ex): A number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may, as a free action, consider any creatures evil until the end of the round for the purposes of spells or abilities originating from the paladin. For example, the paladin may expend a use to attack a non-evil enemy and still gain the bonus to damage from holy smite.
This does not extend to the paladin's code of conduct- for example, if he kills an innocent, good creature with this ability, the paladin will still fall.

Holy Strike (su): The paladin's weapon is guided by divine forces to evil foes. He gains a bonus equal to his charisma modifier to attack rolls against evil creatures. In addition, every time the paladin misses an evil creature due to concealment, he may reroll his miss chance percentile to see if he actually hits.
The bonus to attack can become a penalty from low charisma.

Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead.

Sacrifice: Starting at 9th level, once per day (and an additional once per day per 5 levels thereafter) the paladin may, as a free action, pour all of his life into his ideals. For a number of rounds equal to his charisma modifier, he glows with holy fire, ignited by his very life. This gives him a number of benefits.
First, he gains a +4 sacred bonus to strength & charisma for the duration (which extends the duration accordingly).
His weapons are considered one size category larger for purposes of damage, and the holy fires extend to the weapon, letting it deal an additional 1d12 damage per 5 paladin levels, up to 4d12 at level 20. Half of this damage is fire, and half is sacred.
Any spells with the evil descriptor, or SLAs from creatures with the evil subtype cast against the paladin that allow SR automatically fail.

At the end of this duration, the paladin collapses to the ground, at -1 hp and stable. If the paladin is of a type that would be destroyed at that hp total, he collapses to the ground at 1 hp and unconscious for a number of rounds equal to his sacrifice duration.

Turn Anarch: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the chaotic subtype as he would normally turn undead.

Turn Mutant: The Paladin may turn evil aligned aberrations as he would normally turn undead.

Holy Sacrifice: When the Sacrifice duration expires and the Paladin collapses, the fires surrounding him explode, washing over everything in the vicinity. Everything in a 10' radius is affected as if by a Holy Word or Dictum spell (Paladin's choice) cast at the Paladin's HD. The Paladin may end his Sacrifice prematurely in order to enjoy this effect; if he does so, the radius increases by 10' for every round he had remaining.

Destroy the Destroyer: The Paladin's bonus to attack and damage against evil creatures due to Holy Strike and Holy Smite is doubled when the creature in question is chaotic evil. In addition, the paladin's charisma modifier is doubled for the purposes of turning checks & turning damage against chaotic evil creatures.

Turn Evil: The Paladin may turn any evil aligned creature as he would turn undead.

Holy Surge: No more than once per day, the paladin may expel all his divine power in one surge: as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the paladin may cast both a miracle and wish spell with no xp cost. The paladin immediately "falls" as a part of this action: the atonement spell cast uses half the xp that would have been spent on the wish & miracle spell.
A paladin will often use this ability in times of dire need, such as when presented a scenario where, whatever the choice, he will fall. It may only be used in the pursuit of non-selfish purposes, and if the paladin attempts to use it for personal gain (using the wish to gain material wealth that will be kept by himself, using the miracle to cast an atonement to circumvent the fall, etc.) he simply falls and does not get the wish or the miracle.

Ineffable Justiciar: As Justiciar, but permanent. The bonuses presented from destroy the destroyer now extend to all actually evil creatures (not including creatures considered evil under Ineffable Justiciar).


Special Abilities:

Spoiler

Show

Exalted Paladin:
The paladin instantly gains a bonus exalted feat.

Special Mount:
The paladin adds phantom steed to his spell list. Instead of using the statistics for the phantom steed in the spell description, the paladin uses the statistics of a heavy warhorse or light warhorse (or war pony or riding dog, if a small sized paladin), modified as so. It gains all of the abilities from water walk on, but keeps its normal speed.

Defender:
All allies within a 30 ft. radius of the paladin gain a divine bonus to saving throws equal to 1/2 his charisma modifier.

Crusading Defender:
Requires Defender
The paladin and all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain DR/Good or Lawful equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.

Healing Defender:
Requires Defender
The Paladin & all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain fast healing equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.

Defending Daeva:
Requires Crusading Defender
The paladin gains the effects of a permanent magic circle against evil out to 30' as a supernatural ability. A paladin with Knight Templar also gains the effects of a magic circle against chaos.

Crusader's Mettle:
Gain an additional use per day of Swift Crusader.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.

Expanded Zeal:
The paladin may add any spell from the bard or cleric spell list to his spells known of a level no higher than his current highest paladin spell known. This spell is of a level one higher than normal: for example, if a paladin of at least 6th level took heroism from the bard spell list, he would cast it as a 3rd level spell.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spell.

Knight Templar:
All chaotic creatures are considered evil for the purposes of holy strike, holy smite, turn evil, and ineffable justiciar/destroy the destroyer. The paladin gains detect chaos as well as detect evil, and projects an aura of law as well as good.

Improved Turning:
The paladin gains +1 use of turning per day, +1 to turning checks, and +1 to turning damage.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.

Staggering Turn:
Requires: Improved Turning.
All creatures successfully turned have their movement speeds reduced by 10' for the duration.

Improved Staggering Turn:
Requires: Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are slowed, as the spell, for the duration.

Potent Turn:
Requires: Improved Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are dazed for the duration.

Unliving Healing:
Positive energy cast by the paladin heals good creatures regardless of their type. This effect extends to the paladin himself.

More to come.

New Feat:

Extra Special Ability:
Prerequisite:
At least one special ability.
Benefit:
Instantly gain the benefits of a special ability.
Special:
This feat may be taken more than once. Each time it is taken, it may apply either to another special ability, or to a stacking special ability.

Note: Now I'll be doing all sorts of alignment based warriors. I'll have at least three, and each one will have a PrC when the warrior loses his ideals. It's not necessarily an opposite alignment warrior, but a broken warrior. Here's a list!

Spoiler

Show

Paladin (LG): My remake of the original class, and what started this thread. It's in the OP, ya dengus!
And the TN Paladin-only PrC, The Pragmatic: when the Paladin falls on the scale of idealism vs. cynicism, it falls hard.

Next, the Vis Veris Vesica (NE): one who puts their idealism in themselves, completely focused on self empowerment.
The NG Vis Veris Vesica-only PrC, the Altruist: a Vis Veris Vesica who becomes disgusted with their deeds, coming to a level of redemption that they put the lives of others above their own.

Then we have the Anarch (CN of course): warrior of chaos embodied, master of both chaos incarnate, freedom, and entropy.
Sneak preview- The Pandemonia (CE), Anarch only PrC! Some crazy fun.

Comments:

Spoiler

Show

So, it's a pretty vanilla solution... but I think it's pretty good vanilla. You have some powerful, versatile turning ability (which can be expanded upon), powerful spellcasting, and some evil-killing stuff. It all scales rather linear-ly (with a bit of a quadratic element from the spellcasting) until 15th level, when you get access to the powerhouse spells and better abilities. Then it starts scaling better.
Anyways, all in all, it's meant to be competitive with a clericzilla: not a batman cleric, but one who buffs up then goes out and kills things. Actually, preferably a bit better than the clericzilla.

Anyways... thoughts?

[Roc Ness]

Holy Moly. Its certainly better than the original paladin, but I don't think it competes with CoDzilla, given the tales I've heard of it...

Maybe upper tier 3? I'm not a good judge, but it'll be similar to, probably slightly higher than, the martial initiators.


Also, I like the picture.

[Morph Bark]

Spoilerblock the picture, it's stretching the page.

[Kuma Kode]

...saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard's Charisma modifier.

...so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level bard spell...

Your copypasta is undercooked. :)

paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell:

Were you going to expand there?

Other than some minor typographical errors as nitpicked above.... quite simply... this makes me want to play a paladin. I might drop the hit die down to d10, but I really like how you did the abilities. It is most certainly stronger than the PHB Paladin, but I agree that's it's probably not tier 1... Solid 2-3, though. If someone played this in my game, I would likely be a bit more anal about the paladin's code than I normally am, considering there's actually stuff to lose with this class.

[BladeofOblivion]

I loved the paladin enough to play as is, so I endorse this product or service.

[Gorgondantess]

Holy Moly. Its certainly better than the original paladin, but I don't think it competes with CoDzilla, given the tales I've heard of it...

Maybe upper tier 3? I'm not a good judge, but it'll be similar to, probably slightly higher than, the martial initiators.

Maybe not Druidzilla, or DMM persist clericzilla, but if it's on the level of an initiator, I'm happy.

Also, I like the picture.

I do too!

Your copypasta is undercooked. :)

I have no idea what you're talking about. You obviously edited those "bard" things in. >.>

Were you going to expand there?

Nnnnnope.

Other than some minor typographical errors as nitpicked above.... quite simply... this makes me want to play a paladin. I might drop the hit die down to d10, but I really like how you did the abilities. It is most certainly stronger than the PHB Paladin, but I agree that's it's probably not tier 1... Solid 2-3, though. If someone played this in my game, I would likely be a bit more anal about the paladin's code than I normally am, considering there's actually stuff to lose with this class.

I was aiming for mid-high tier 3. It's not tier 2, trust me.
And great! I wanted people to want to play the paladin, the great champion of good, the last bastion of righteousness and purity in this world. I wanted it to be worth it, specifically.
And I did edit the paladin's code, note. But, yes, you're supposed to be strict with the code with this one: there should be some damned if you do, damned if you don't instances. That's what makes playing a paladin interesting.

[Mulletmanalive]

I kinda like the retained code but making that paragraph clearer is probably in order. Defining "Innocent" would be worthwhile and certain other things like that.

Does a paladin instantly know if they've struck an innocent by mistake? Can they, in any way, sense guilt or intention? It's possible for [if you read the spell description, i've used this on players before] a commoner under a powerful [Evil] descriptor spell to register as "very evil" under detections, for instance...

Do you suffer from the lost Cha? I know there's spellcasting, but do you suffer penalties to hit evil until you've made right? That would certainly be cool and a -5 penalty on one of your big uscle classes would be worth a race against time before the enemy found you...

[Robert Blackletter]

Not a great judge of balance but love this variant, i going see if my dm will let me play this. Also Holy Surge is awesome

[sdeligar]

This is pretty cool. So far I haven't found many homebrew I would be interested in trying but this one is. One thing shouldn't the spell list have prerequisites? Beyond that I don't have enough experience to suggest anything else.

[Gorgondantess]

I kinda like the retained code but making that paragraph clearer is probably in order. Defining "Innocent" would be worthwhile and certain other things like that.

Does a paladin instantly know if they've struck an innocent by mistake? Can they, in any way, sense guilt or intention? It's possible for [if you read the spell description, i've used this on players before] a commoner under a powerful [Evil] descriptor spell to register as "very evil" under detections, for instance...

Do you suffer from the lost Cha? I know there's spellcasting, but do you suffer penalties to hit evil until you've made right? That would certainly be cool and a -5 penalty on one of your big uscle classes would be worth a race against time before the enemy found you...

Honestly... this one's hard.
There's always DMs who will give you no-win situations and make you fall from that... The code is sortof loose, yes, but if the DM wants you to fall, you'll fall. I should include something about motivation.
And, yeah, you suffer from the lost charisma. Pretty much everything is based off of charisma... the only thing you'll retain is turning, unwavering devotion, and the more fluff based stuff, making this little better than a warrior. You can't cast spells, your turning will be abysmal, and you get no bonus against evil creatures.
I'm not going to make it a penalty, but being little better than a warrior should be pretty devastating.
I should include something about penalties, though...

@sdeligar, Robert Blackletter: Thanks!

[Juhn]

Well, I find Justicar somewhat terrifying, as that does mean you can start Smiting Good creatures with impunity.

I do assume doing that would cause a Fall, though, so perhaps it is not as bad as it looks.

[Gorgondantess]

Well, I find Justicar somewhat terrifying, as that does mean you can start Smiting Good creatures with impunity.

I do assume doing that would cause a Fall, though, so perhaps it is not as bad as it looks.

Yes, that would cause you to fall. It's just so that if the Paladin is facing a lot of neutral creatures- say, slaads, which by all rights he should be able to smite- he's not totally screwed. I don't like one trick ponies.

[Ouranos]

Saved. Very nice.

[Gorgondantess]

Well, I'm glad people like it. Any other comments?

[Fail]

Do you still intend to make it match a CoD, or did you find initiator-level enough?

[Gorgondantess]

Do you still intend to make it match a CoD, or did you find initiator-level enough?

Not match CoD, but be competitive with- as in, not outshined by. Specifically clericzilla. And not WTFBBQOP clericzilla, but a buffer, wade into melee type cleric. So semi-clericzilla. Really, though, if this is as balanced as an initiator, I'm happy. I know it'll never be as powerful as a tier 1 class, and that's fine by me.

[hamishspence]

I like the concept. And the approach to Falling seems like a good one- it limits the Fallen Paladin, but not as badly.

Dropping ideas like paladins being unable to multiclass, is also a good idea.

[Mulletmanalive]

I'm not going to make it a penalty, but being little better than a warrior should be pretty devastating.
I should include something about penalties, though...

I've only included stuff like that because of 'Smite everything evil" syndrome but i really meant whether the ''add cha to hit evil stuff" would still apply with a negative value, as i doesn't specifically say "min. +1"

[Gorgondantess]

I've only included stuff like that because of 'Smite everything evil" syndrome but i really meant whether the ''add cha to hit evil stuff" would still apply with a negative value, as i doesn't specifically say "min. +1"

Actually, it specifically says it can get into negatives. This may sound harsh, but really, if you don't have a charisma score of at least 12, this class is pointless.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Not to nitpick, but its JUSTICIAR, not justicar. The word justicar only really came about because fantasy writers and D&D players kept misspelling the word and it stuck. Sorry, but I am a stickler for proper spelling, especially of one of my favorite words. I'm REALLY miffed that they spelled it "justicar" in Mass Effect 2 as well.

[Gorgondantess]

Not to nitpick, but its JUSTICIAR, not justicar. The word justicar only really came about because fantasy writers and D&D players kept misspelling the word and it stuck. Sorry, but I am a stickler for proper spelling, especially of one of my favorite words. I'm REALLY miffed that they spelled it "justicar" in Mass Effect 2 as well.

Likewise, it's "tyger", not "tiger". The word "tiger" only came about because the english kept misspelling the word and it stuck.
...But, well, justiciar is in the dictionary, while justicar is not. I'll change it.

[Strudel110]

Ok first of all I have to thank you for nerfing wisdom. Now I gotta say everytime I look at paladin, I'm disappointed I read the PHB entry and thought wow this is lame. I was expecting a tough evil-smiting machine of holy death, what I saw was a low tier fighter with severely limited powers, and a fall mechanic that DMs will use just to screw over your mediocre class, I play planescape and grimdark settings, so 9 times out of ten I'm not fighting just evil, but neutral with bad intentions, or a drunkard, or someone under a dominate creature spell. So I appreciate this fix so that paladins will be more than a one-trick pony.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...51#post8958251Shameless self endorsement.

[DaragosKitsune]

Just a quick suggestion about the Extra Special Ability feat. Maybe make it accessible to rogues too, seeing as they have a similar mechanic to what you implemented here.

[Gorgondantess]

Just a quick suggestion about the Extra Special Ability feat. Maybe make it accessible to rogues too, seeing as they have a similar mechanic to what you implemented here.

I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\

@Strudel: Put the link in your sig: that way you can endorse yourself with some shame.

[Strudel110]

I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\

@Strudel: Put the link in your sig: that way you can endorse yourself with some shame.

Fixed lol. I'll be using this variant soon.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Likewise, it's "tyger", not "tiger". The word "tiger" only came about because the english kept misspelling the word and it stuck.
...But, well, justiciar is in the dictionary, while justicar is not. I'll change it.

To be fair, a lot of those discrepencies are because when Webster made his first dictionary, he deliberately altered the spellings of some words to make the words more "American," since it was during the Revolution. That's why we spell these words like this:

honor
dialog
theater

While the Brits spell them like this:

honour
dialogue
theatre

But "justicar" simply isn't a word. Thank you for fixing it and sorry for whining about it. Trying to qualify for the "Uptight English Teacher" prestige class as Durkon would say.

[Fail]

Not match CoD, but be competitive with- as in, not outshined by. Specifically clericzilla. And not WTFBBQOP clericzilla, but a buffer, wade into melee type cleric. So semi-clericzilla. Really, though, if this is as balanced as an initiator, I'm happy. I know it'll never be as powerful as a tier 1 class, and that's fine by me.

Having people look at cleric, then at this, then have doubts, is doable. Desirable to you, though?

Also: "this clause doesn't extend to nonsentient creatures".

[DracoDei]

Actually, it specifically says it can get into negatives. This may sound harsh, but really, if you don't have a charisma score of at least 12, this class is pointless.

ARe your remembering about the possibility of Drain, damage, and etc? (Note that I haven't even read the class, just seems like a point that might be useful to remember).

[Gorgondantess]

ARe your remembering about the possibility of Drain, damage, and etc? (Note that I haven't even read the class, just seems like a point that might be useful to remember).

Yeah. So, if the paladin gets charisma drain, ouch. Sortof like if the mid-level wizard gets enough intelligence damage to not be able to cast his best spells- ouch.

[Mando Knight]

Something I don't like: this is a purely offensive class by its features. No healing, no protection, just smashing into peoples' faces. When I think of Paladin, I think "Cecil Harvey" or such: warriors whose divine power is as much a shield to ward their allies as it is a sword with which to destroy their enemies.