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  1. - Top - End - #271

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    ...calling you rude is flaming?
    Fine.
    It is, in the strictest sense, criticism of my personal character unrelated to any of the issues of the thread topic. So yes, yes it is.

    when with that reasoning you don't need any class beyond core.
    I disagree completely. Many non-core classes improve the options, concepts, and gameplay for the players.

    Here's a thought; have you considered that there are people who LIKE making mechanics?
    I'm one of them. Heck, my homebrew work is mentioned repeatedly in the "What is the Best Homebrew You've Seen?" thread on this site.

    Mechanics aren't always a means to an end, they can easily be an end in themself.
    That's nice, but the guy asked me for my honest opinion on whether his mechanics were well designed or not, then you started making personal attacks and are now carrying on an argument that is not about the subject matter of improving homebrewing, but about why people should think I'm a rude person and defaming my character.

    You use exclamations and generally rude words.
    Such as?

    Like Gareth said, your issue seems to be more with the purpose of homebrewing than this class.
    Then you have completely misunderstood my point. I love homebrewing (and use tons of it in my game) and I have no idea where you would get that impression, any more than I have any idea where you would get the impression that I was being rude. I always encourage people to homebrew more.

    Good homebrew is homebrew that improves or expands the game. I was asked if this was good homebrew, and I believe it does not improve or expand the game because I can enact the concept of this homebrew class better through any number of other means. It is rather strictly inferior, in my mind, to the "original paladin" that I already get, such as, say, the Prestige Paladin. I don't know how I can clarify my position any more than that, but if you think I don't like homebrew in general, there's a serious failure to communicate going on.
    Last edited by Godless_Paladin; 2010-10-12 at 04:01 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    ...calling you rude is flaming?
    Fine.
    You call other people's opinions silly and generally act as if they don't matter. You essentially say 'By the way, you don't need to make this class.', when with that reasoning you don't need any class beyond core.
    Seconded, for what it's worth.
    Last edited by Calenestel; 2010-10-12 at 03:56 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Sorry Godless, but I gotta take Lord Gareth's side on this:

    EDIT: Eh, I had a response for two of your posts, Godless_Paladin, but you guys all type a bit too fast, and I can't finish in time. Also, my internet is eating my posts again. There is half-and-a-bit response in the spoiler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    I may be better off with this brew than with the standard pally, but that's like saying I'm better off with the Fighter than the CW Samurai. It doesn't matter, because I'm using a Warblade. You could make a dozen classes that were better than the CW Samurai and no one would care because being better than the CW Samurai isn't enough to make a cool class.

    I could say "just playing a Cleric" is a fix to the Paladin. And you'd be better off than playing the standard pally (just like you are with this class).
    As Lord Gareth has already stated, the Cleric (and similar) could already make a better anything than anything else. And as that is the case, what "good" homebrew would there be left? A Cleric even more powerful than the original Cleric in a certain definite yet infinite field (read: a more versatile Paladin that is better than the Cleric at being a Paladin)? Apart from the paradox, you're just one step away from breaking a game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    1: BAB isn't flavor. What your actual attack bonus and attacks look like in-game are. That's complete metagame silliness. Whether you got a +8 to hit from BAB or a +8 to hit from 3/4 and a +2 bonus somewhere (say, from Knowledge Devotion or from just rolling a bit higher on your stats) doesn't change the fact that when you swing your sword you get a +8. Not only that, but many clericadin builds still get 16+ BAB (for example, Ordained Champion gets full BAB. Prestige Paladin gets full BAB. Divine Abjurant Champion gets full BAB. Bone Knight gets full BAB. And so forth. And you only lose 1 point of to-hit vs a full BAB guy by the time you can prestige class into these things. So your comment about BAB is completely unfounded in every way.
    2: This Paladin homebrew has spells. I checked.[/QUOTE]

    Now, you've kust contradicted yourself a bit there.

    The reason why it does matter to many folks are because those folks are the same folks who can't figure out why Cleave and Steel Wind are basically the same thing, and think that one is irredeemably "anime" and thus will break the flavor of their game.

    I could appease those people by, as I mentioned previously, actually writing a "paladin fix" as actually a bunch of renamed options from a cleric build and those people seriously wouldn't know the difference. I mean, this isn't just conjecture or anything, people did this before on the old 3.5e WotC boards before WotC nuked their own database. They also did it for the Fighter.

    For example, remember the "Divine Sacrifice" spell the Paladin gets? Blade of Blood is practically the same thing, except with less number variation (5 self damage / 3d6 damage instead of 10 self damage / 5d6 damage).

    Heck, Clerics even have a Fall mechanic. If you want to be a real stickler you could just change it to "you can't deviate even one step." Bam. Paladin.

    Oh yeah. The Prestige Paladin also outdoes this one. It's in UA. Of course, that all falls under the heading of "Clericadin."

    What you have to understand is: You're not trying to compete with the core Paladin for the title of Real Holy Warrior any more than you're competing with the CW Samurai for True Knight. You're competing with something like an Ordained Champion / Prestige Paladin / Ruby Knight Vindicator (an example of something with pretty much full BAB, doesn't get access to 9th level spells, does everything this class can claim, has more additional fun paladin stuff on it than this class does) or any number of other viable clericadin builds. You don't need to make it as powerful or more powerful than that, but you at least have to make it as *cool* and *fun* as that, instead of walking around with a guy who just exists to be a vessel for passive bonuses all day and try to charge or turn things.

    Really, by far the biggest thing that this change does, beyond breaking charge damage harder or Turn The Heathen!, is just move up the spell list 4 levels.

    And thus you prove my point. That has nothing to do with flavor whatsoever. That has to do with arbitrary prejudice. Rename the Cleric class Paladin and you can put Paladin on your sheet. Nothing in the game will change.

    Of course it can. And that's what actual flavor is. What's actually happening inside the game world. The fact that it says "Full BAB" on your base class template doesn't actually MEAN anything. A guy with a +1 from, say, I don't know, weapon focus from the War Domain and 19 BAB from level 4 cleric = 16 levels of full BAB PrCs has the exact same full attack routine as the guy with the 20 BAB.

    Saying Paladin on your sheet isn't flavor. People calling you Paladin in the game world is flavor. Saying paladin on your sheet is just metagame nonsense. It's like saying that Miko can't be a samurai because she doesn't have Samurai on her sheet. It's absolutely absurd.

    And if that's all they care about, then, as I said before, you can just rename a selection of Cleric builds "Paladin" and call it a Paladin fix, and it will be a better paladin fix than this one.[/QUOTE]


    Anyhow, back to what this thread is about:

    Godless_Paladin has still made a good point, perhaps with Paladin needs a few more options. Gorgondantess, is there perhaps a way to incorporate "special attacks" (like trip, bullrush etc.) into the Paladin? Perhaps by way of another special ability, or maybe a different use of Swift Crusader? Or both? It isn't much, but it is a start. You've already made Paladin Archery and 2WF more competitive with Paladin 2HF (discounting uberchargers), perhaps make those special attacks more competitive in some way too?
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-10-12 at 04:05 AM.

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  4. - Top - End - #274

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    You call other people's opinions silly
    Quote Originally Posted by Calenestel View Post
    Seconded, for what it's worth.
    Well, actually, I called Lord_Gareth's opinion that a new Paladin class named Paladin is more worthwhile flavorwise as a Paladin than a class that wasn't because it's named Paladin and so forth was silly. And I will stand by that: I find that sentiment to be silly.

    I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to think someone's opinion is wrong and say so.

  5. - Top - End - #275

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    You call other people's opinions silly
    Quote Originally Posted by Calenestel View Post
    Seconded, for what it's worth.
    Well, actually, I called Lord_Gareth's opinion that a new Paladin class named Paladin is more worthwhile flavorwise as a Paladin than a class that wasn't because it's named Paladin and so forth was silly. And I will stand by that: I find that sentiment to be silly.

    I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to think someone's opinion is wrong and say so.

    I mean geez, I started out this conversation by asking "do you want to hear the parts of your design I disagree with and think are silly?" And then I get "Yes" and then people complain. I find that rather silly too. Pardon me if you think it's rude for saying so.

    Godless_Paladin has still made a good point, perhaps with Paladin needs a few more options.
    Thank you :)

    Not only that, but they need to be meaningfully different tactics and different paths he can use to reach his goals. A choice between, for example, 2 different abilities, one that adds +3 damage to evil people, and one that adds +1d6 damage to evil people, isn't really meaningful choices. Likewise, if you have abilities like "Get Magic Circle all day every day" and "Get Fast Healing all day every day" those are just choices *in build,* not *in game.*

    The paladin needs more meaningful choices to make in the actual game session. As is, the only real source of that is his expanded spontaneous spell list (Which, as I said, is great. That's definitely a step in the right direction! Something more Beguiler-like, but with a Fighter instead of a Rogue, would be solid). You want your class to be kinetic and engaging during the actual gameplay, not just in making build choices, and your class leaves a bit to be desired in this realm.
    Last edited by Godless_Paladin; 2010-10-12 at 04:12 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    Well, actually, I called Lord_Gareth's opinion that a new Paladin class named Paladin is more worthwhile flavorwise as a Paladin than a class that wasn't because it's named Paladin and so forth was silly. And I will stand by that: I find that sentiment to be silly.

    I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to think someone's opinion is wrong and say so.
    Nevertheless, the majority of the past few comments have been, as TVTropes says, natter. Debate over this issue would be better suited in its own thread, possibly in the RPG forum. I'm sure the OP would greatly appreciate us not cluttering up the thread with all of this pointless bickering.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    I mean geez, I started out this conversation by asking "do you want to hear the parts of your design I disagree with and think are silly?" And then I get "Yes" and then people complain.


    Nah, I think it was a bit of a misunderstanding on Lord_Gareth's part. Please do not regard me as flaming you, but I must point out that there are some instances where you sound a bit hostile in your arguments. Perhaps use some smilies?

    Aaannyhow (back on topic, second time I've said this to), what do you suggest to improve the versatility of and make better of the Paladin? I suggested extra bonuses to combat maneuvers (as in trip & bull rush, not steel wind and setting sun). But perhaps you have an idea?
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-10-12 at 04:12 AM.

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  8. - Top - End - #278

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post


    Please do not regard me as flaming you, but I must point out that there are some instances where you sound a bit hostile in your arguments.
    Well, I'm not trying to be hostile. I guess I just sound that way in "internet tone" to some people. I certainly don't feel hostile.
    Perhaps use some smilies?
    Does this help?

    No wait, that's not the right one. Here we go.

    Nah, I think it was a bit of a misunderstanding on Lord_Gareth's part.
    I got that sense too.

    Aaannyhow (back on topic, second time I've said this to), what do you suggest to improve the versatility of and make better of the Paladin? I suggested extra bonuses to combat maneuvers (as in trip & bull rush, not steel wind and setting sun). But perhaps you have an idea?
    Well, unfortunately, I save my choicer ideas for my own homebrew and indie game design projects.

    So, while I'm not really willing to actually write out a list of class features for you, I am willing to help point out various aspects of class design and game design theory.

    Anyways, the first thing you'll want to do is figure out exactly what kind of flavor you want from your paladin, and mark that down. For example, do you really want "make everything flee in terror from you or disintegrate" to be a large part of what defines the Paladin? Do you want the Paladin to be more "nonmagical"? Does the Paladin actually go and talk with his God on occasion, and that direct link, that Divine Call, is what seperates him from other Clerics? Should the Paladin be able to shoot lightning out of his sword, or is that out of the question? And so forth. I wouldn't want to say that you should go "I have the power!" and have a bolt of Thor's Lightning strike your Holy Sword and chain to other people around you if that's not the kind of thing you want to see your Paladin doing.

    Likewise, you want to ask yourself what you want to accomplish with this homebrew. What it actually adds to the game. What do you want your Paladin to do that the Cleric doesn't? Something like 'Have Spontaneous Casting' is a valid answer, but it'd be good to know why you want that, because the reason will probably expand naturally into other aspects of design.

    Tweaking the spell list to make sure you actually get things that are really relevant to actually be prepared at the level you get them would go a long way, though. :Thumbsup:

    However, if all you want is just a "pretty generic fix that makes the basic premise of a Paladin Holy Warrior workable," there are all kinds of ways to do that already that are actually pretty good and fun and a whole lot less work than designing a similarly interesting class (after all, writing 100 spells or maneuvers is some work ;)). Heck, the Prestige Paladin in UA is pretty solid. I could probably make a handbook about making a tier 1-3 holy warrior of various flavors, because it's something I do a lot (I'm a big fan of holy warriors). I could even reformat it as a "new class" that's named Paladin if that matters to anyone. In fact, if I were to try to make a Paladin with the mission statement in the OP (be competitive with CoDzilla, be a True Holy Warrior), I'd probably do exactly that and just tweak things around the edges and streamline the process so that anyone can recognize and use the possibilities, as opposed to optimizers who are thoroughly knowledgeable about the breadth of what you can build.
    Last edited by Godless_Paladin; 2010-10-12 at 04:36 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    I wouldn't want to say that you should go "I have the power!" and have a bolt of Thor's Lightning strike your Holy Sword and chain to other people around you if that's not the kind of thing you want to see your Paladin doing.
    I'll give you that that's a pretty cool image.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    Well, I'm not trying to be hostile. I guess I just sound that way in "internet tone" to some people. I certainly don't feel hostile.
    Yeah, that happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    Does this help?

    No wait, that's not the right one. Here we go.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    I got that sense too.
    :shrug:

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    Well, unfortunately, I save my choicer ideas for my own homebrew.

    Honestly though, the first thing you'll want to do is figure out exactly what kind of flavor you want from your paladin, and mark that down. For example, do you really *want* flashing street thugs with your holy symbol to make them crumble into dust and make that something that's happening every encounter? Do you want the Paladin to be more "nonmagical"? Does the Paladin talk with his God on occasion? Should the Paladin be able to shoot lightning out of his sword, or is that out of the question? And so forth. I wouldn't want to say that you should go "I have the power!" and have a bolt of Thor's Lightning strike your Holy Sword and chain to other people around you if that's not the kind of thing you want to see your Paladin doing.

    Tweaking the spell list to make sure you actually get things that are really relevant to actually be prepared at the level you get them would go a long way, though. :Thumbsup:
    Li'l hogger!

    But yes, that is a good suggestion. I shall leave Gorgondantess to respond to it, though, as it is his work.

    EDIT: Should we compile all the ideas into a single, formatted post so that the Author of this Homebrew does not have to dig through several very long posts of "animated discussion"? Might save Gorgondantess some time.
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-10-12 at 04:31 AM.

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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Prob'y a good idea. I think the useful parts were that it's a little heavy on damage and turning, and doesn't give many options.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  12. - Top - End - #282

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Prob'y a good idea. I think the useful parts were that it's a little heavy on damage and turning, and doesn't give many options.
    Those would be the key bits, yes, along with noting that things like "I have a bunch of my abilities on all day" isn't actually very fun because players like to have a sizable chunk of their usefulness stem from a choice of actions in the actual game itself (in addition to just picking things in the course of building). If you take all those defensive special abilities, for example, a lot of the paladin's contribution to the party comes from him just standing in their general vicinity.

    Even if you want most of your role to be "I hit that guy with a sword in order to deal damage," there are all kinds of ways you can diversify on that concept. Tome of Battle is a fine example. You can trip and hit people with a sword, you can bull rush and hit people with a sword, you can pick up your enemy's sword for a round and dual attack with your other sword then throw the enemy sword at a guy, you can charge over difficult terrain and hit people with a sword, you can jump really high and hit people with a sword, you can countercharge and hit people with a sword, you can lure an enemy into a flanking trap and hit them with a sword, you can distract your enemy and hit them with a sword, you can ignore DR and hit them with a sword, you can raise your defenses and hit them with a sword, you can risk vulnerability to hit them with a sword harder... and so on and so forth. And this is me listing off options from level 1 maneuvers!

    You'll notice none of those are "Just Deal Moar Damage." They all have some kind of tactical versatility and there's choices that would be better or worse than each other in different situations.

    The reason the Paladin is a poorly designed class isn't because it can't deal any damage. The very first game I ever played the actual Paladin class in a game (and I was kinda new to D&D at the time) I wasn't really trying to optimize or anything and I found myself doing some 100+ damage on a charge at level 6 with Rhino Rush (level 1 spell in Spell Compendium), and a rather random selection of feats like... I don't remember, Awesome Smite or some nonsense.

    And I still wasn't really that good, because charging in a straight unhindered line on the ground and smiting some guy with a sword was basically all I could do that was relevant to the party in any way (well, that and I carried around a cure wand) and it was kinda boring. Not at all like when I played a Crusader, or a Clericadin. I actually felt a lot more like a paragon of Good divine hero knight when I played a melee cleric build than I did when I played the same character as a Paladin (yes, I once rerolled my same character as a different class in a different campaign, so sue me), and (and this is the important part) no amount of extra damage will change that. You need new options that let you do new cool things. Extra damage is just the cool thing you always could do (charge and hit the evil guy with your sword), except more.
    Last edited by Godless_Paladin; 2010-10-12 at 05:00 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Dear Gorgondantess: A fishing out from the heated debate:
    Some of the most important constructive stuff from that page of debate. I hope you look here first before you spend hours reading the thousands of words over there.

    EDIT: Don't forget Godless_Paladin's post just before this one. I sorta got ninjaed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    Well, unfortunately, I save my choicer ideas for my own homebrew and indie game design projects.

    So, while I'm not really willing to actually write out a list of class features for you, I am willing to help point out various aspects of class design and game design theory.

    Anyways, the first thing you'll want to do is figure out exactly what kind of flavor you want from your paladin, and mark that down. For example, do you really want "make everything flee in terror from you or disintegrate" to be a large part of what defines the Paladin? Do you want the Paladin to be more "nonmagical"? Does the Paladin actually go and talk with his God on occasion, and that direct link, that Divine Call, is what seperates him from other Clerics? Should the Paladin be able to shoot lightning out of his sword, or is that out of the question? And so forth. I wouldn't want to say that you should go "I have the power!" and have a bolt of Thor's Lightning strike your Holy Sword and chain to other people around you if that's not the kind of thing you want to see your Paladin doing.

    Likewise, you want to ask yourself what you want to accomplish with this homebrew. What it actually adds to the game. What do you want your Paladin to do that the Cleric doesn't? Something like 'Have Spontaneous Casting' is a valid answer, but it'd be good to know why you want that, because the reason will probably expand naturally into other aspects of design.

    Tweaking the spell list to make sure you actually get things that are really relevant to actually be prepared at the level you get them would go a long way, though. :Thumbsup:

    However, if all you want is just a "pretty generic fix that makes the basic premise of a Paladin Holy Warrior workable," there are all kinds of ways to do that already that are actually pretty good and fun and a whole lot less work than designing a similarly interesting class (after all, writing 100 spells or maneuvers is some work ;)). Heck, the Prestige Paladin in UA is pretty solid. I could probably make a handbook about making a tier 1-3 holy warrior of various flavors, because it's something I do a lot (I'm a big fan of holy warriors). I could even reformat it as a "new class" that's named Paladin if that matters to anyone. In fact, if I were to try to make a Paladin with the mission statement in the OP (be competitive with CoDzilla, be a True Holy Warrior), I'd probably do exactly that and just tweak things around the edges and streamline the process so that anyone can recognize and use the possibilities, as opposed to optimizers who are thoroughly knowledgeable about the breadth of what you can build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    Godless_Paladin has still made a good point, perhaps with Paladin needs a few more options. Gorgondantess, is there perhaps a way to incorporate "special attacks" (like trip, bullrush etc.) into the Paladin? Perhaps by way of another special ability, or maybe a different use of Swift Crusader? Or both? It isn't much, but it is a start. You've already made Paladin Archery and 2WF more competitive with Paladin 2HF (discounting uberchargers), perhaps make those special attacks more competitive in some way too?


    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BladeofOblivion View Post
    Personally, I favor the Defender Tree of special abilities. If you pump Charisma, It makes you and everyone around you ridiculously tough, with high AC, free DR, A magic circle against evil and/or Chaos, and fast healing.
    And yet that's all stuff that's on all the time, and thus boring. Hence poor mechanical design. You need something a bit more active, kinetic, and tactical where the player has to make meaningful in-game choices and has more than one or two courses of action worthy of consideration (or at least POSSIBLE) at any given time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godless_Paladin View Post
    Seriously, pretty much all of the abilities granted fall into one of the following categories:

    1) Moar Damage! Not more ways to apply damage or more tactics or anything. Just Moar Damage When I Charge The Evil Thing! As if this was a problem for the Paladin before.
    2) Turn it! Turn it! Unless I can't yet!
    3) Piddly healing that's largely irrelevant when you get it, save in the sense it was relevant for the old paladin (I can use wands!). The best part is that you can have unlimited fast healing and thus heal everyone to full for free. But that's basically saying you're a more economic version of Cure Light Wounds.
    4) Decent to good passive resistances (Magic Circle all day every day? That's a darned good thing) that don't require me to do anything in-game except stay in the general vicinity of the party.

    It looks terribly boring to play and I could make a more fun paladin with other mechanics before I even start houseruling. And heck, if you think a clericadin is too potentially good, you can always intentionally make a worse build. It's easy peasy. For example, don't use Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell.
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-10-12 at 04:47 AM.

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  14. - Top - End - #284

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Also, it can be said that ubercharging is a rather unfun mechanic. This goes two ways:

    1) Either you charge, the thing takes 1000+1 points of damage, and it dies. The combat is over and no one else had fun.
    2) Ubercharging is countered by things like Steadfast Boots reach improved tripper or Solid Fog or whatever and you don't have fun.
    3) You do it over and over...

    Basically, it's rocket launcher tag or bust.

    Of course, there is some recourse to this in this Paladin, but not because of the expanded class features. It's entirely because of the improved spell progression and spontaneous casting. The class features are generally just defense/offense numbers inflation, or "you can use an ability you already have against an enemy tag you couldn't use it against before." (e.g. Smite chaotic people too! Turn the dolgrims too!) They're not new options, or even really new ways of using that ability, they just expand the restricted target list (like a Rogue grabbing a wand of Gravestrike or an augment crystal of Golembane for expanding the Sneak Attack target list)
    Last edited by Godless_Paladin; 2010-10-12 at 05:24 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by thegurullamen View Post
    Nevertheless, the majority of the past few comments have been, as TVTropes says, natter. Debate over this issue would be better suited in its own thread, possibly in the RPG forum. I'm sure the OP would greatly appreciate us not cluttering up the thread with all of this pointless bickering.
    This.
    I don't have time to totally rework this class because one person decided to pick it apart. I've generally heard very good things about this class over the past three months, so I'll stick with that. Is it perfect? No, I don't claim it to be. But I think it's good.
    Nevertheless, right now, this isn't worth my time- maybe I'll come back to it later, maybe not. If you really care so much, make your own paladin fix. If you don't, then stop clogging up my thread. Either way, I have some improved monster classes to get to.
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  16. - Top - End - #286

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I'll give you that that's a pretty cool image.
    The good news is that a clericadin can already do that. And a lot of other cool images that the default paladin has trouble with. You've got a lot more creative space to work with there, and you can just let the cool images flow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    If you really care so much, make your own paladin fix.
    I already did. Years ago. You may have noticed me mentioning it before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I don't have time to totally rework this class because one person decided to pick it apart.
    If you don't, then stop clogging up my thread. Either way, I have some improved monster classes to get to.
    So... you specifically asked for my input, not just in the general sense of the thread itself but specifically asked me to pick it apart (more than once, even. I asked if you were sure and you confirmed your desire to have me have at it), and then you get hostile. And say that you have no use for having flaws in your design pointed out because you have no time to work on or improive your class. If this is the case, I wonder why you specifically asked me for my opinion as a game designer in the first place.
    So much for PEACH, eh? Good luck on those monster classes.



    (Incidentally, another example of why giving the Paladin more damage isn't fixing much:
    http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=9673.0
    ^--that's nothing new. The Paladin was always able to smite for silly amounts of damage. That's not why people thought it was subpar. More damage isn't fixing the flaws of the Paladin class design)
    Last edited by Godless_Paladin; 2010-10-13 at 12:41 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Because in general you were rather rude, and you seem the person that, if I disagreed with openly (and I certainly disagree with you on 90% of your critique), I would get into a long argument with, and I just have the energy now to deal with that. I was expecting a respectful and thoughtful critique, not a bashing. You were looking to find things wrong with it, rather than just taking it as a whole, insinuating a certain ability was useless because for some reason you thought that's all it was capable of. I read your review, and I didn't like it. Not because you were saying my creation wasn't good, but because of your attitude. I would really love to give a point-by-point rebuttal, but, again, as I said, I don't have the time nor energy for that right now.
    Beyond that, suggesting a few revisions would've been okay, but saying that the whole damn class is just tripe is just as bad as saying it's perfect. I have time for a few revisions- I do not have time for a total rehaul, especially when there are many, many people on these forums who seemed to think it was fine as-is.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-10-13 at 10:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    especially when there are many people on these forums who seemed to think it was fine as-is.
    In simple point of fact, many, many people think the Fighter, Paladin, Monk, etc are fine as is and will argue endlessly to that point. In fact, vast numbers of people are utterly convinced that wildly contradictory things are true (be it contradicting the beliefs of some other vast number of people, or even their own), in all aspects of life. Even if you could validly claim that you have a significant number of fans for your version of the paladin as opposed to some of the more popular and widespread fixes (and you can't, really. Google "Paladin Homebrew" or whatever and look at which ones have made it onto dozens of sites (including foreign languages) due to their fans, some homebrews with hundreds of thousands of views), acting superior on the basis of bandwagon appeal isn't going to get you anywhere with me. Sorry.

    You were looking to find things wrong with it
    Not really. I was looking for the high points, there just weren't many in my wholly honest opinion. I mentioned the high points where I could find them, but you seem to have overlooked that in favor of pretending I did nothing but bash you because I said I thought it was an overall mediocre and less than groundbreaking revision at the end of an extensive point by point impression.

    1) 4+ int skill points and 2) an improved spell progression (though I thought you could have implemented it better, adjusting the spell list a bit more in accordance with what caster level you were actually getting when you got those spells) was pretty much the full extent of it, and really that's something all the paladin fixes have. And there are hundreds of them. They're a dime a dozen, and a lot of them also don't fix the paladin for much the same reasons yours doesn't (not seeming to really understand why Paladins were poorly designed to begin with). There were a few other things, but they just shifted the pros and cons around in my mind (for example, a TWF paladin is very clearly more viable now).

    The rest of your class was, as I mentioned

    1) Plain old damage bonuses. The paladin can already do thousands of damage on an attack, this isn't fixing her.
    2) Use the same abilities I already have, except with less type restrictions. Being able to turn an aberration at high levels or Smite chaotic people too doesn't really suddenly make me want to play your Paladin.
    3) Passive resistances. This adds little to the gameplay experience, as the player doesn't have to make any choices or anything. All she has to do is stay in the general vicinity of her party.

    These aren't just little niggling issues (Indeed, I have many issues with your class that I didn't bother to mention). That's really the entirety of your class. What the Paladin needs is some depth and versatility, not bigger numbers.

    To put it another way, you haven't accomplished your mission statement. Your class isn't competitive with the higher tier classes, let alone CoDzilla. All flavor, fun, gameplay, and design issues that I have with your class aside, what have you done to raise it above the definition of Tier 5?

    Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.
    Or Tier 4?

    Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.
    I really, honestly thought your class was inadequately designed and didn't really move the Paladin out of the lower tiers, and explained to you, point by point, why I felt that way, as well as general advice on how you could improve your work. And I gave you an extensive, thoughtful, and honest critique, and have made every effort to be respectful while you've been anything but to me (casually dismissing any points without addressing them and saying that I'm just bashing, and criticizing my character rather than any of my points, which I'm sure others will agree are entirely valid) in return for me taking a rather significant chunk of time out of my busy day to try and help you (at your request).

    So good day to you. Best of luck in future endeavors.
    Last edited by Godless_Paladin; 2010-10-13 at 12:48 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Well, here is some input from someone actually using the class here:

    I think it's freaking awesome. I've yet to try it out at higher levels but I have no qualms from what I have seen.

    Not a very large post here, no, but I think input from practical use takes precidence over theoretical number crunching input.

    As a note, I've taken a roll of Defender/Healer and it works deliciously.

  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    I'm using it in a game too. So far, it's tremendous fun. Sure, I don't have as many options as my typical characters, but since they're primarily Factotums and Archivists, that's to be expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    And two out of three leading anthropomorphic personifications of death agree on the matter.
    Avatar by Dogmantra. Huzzah!
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  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    I'll take a look at it too, however, I'm more interested in another thing:

    Gorgon, I see you made the Vis, vesa, sorry, forgot (really), that's supposed to be an evil guy and all. I like however the "bastion of competence" guy so much that I intend on using it as a kind of aligment-based holy warrior. While it's quite easy to adapt the aligment things to be from another aligment, what are the specific abilities you would suggest it I wanted to use good, chaos and law versions too?

    Also, I think I don't quite get the reason for invocations. Besides for power, and balance, and being a cool mechanic, what the reasons for invocations in this class?
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