New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 211 to 240 of 291
  1. - Top - End - #211
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Mopalot View Post
    Secondly, I like it, but some of the stuff, like especially Chaos the power of! is a little too fiddly. Like, I'd need a lot of cheat sheets to run a character like that, so that's a mark against it. Interrupt (and the special ability that gives you more uses) seems really powerful. Also: We don't have enough special abilities to run a 20th level Anarch.
    Well, for the first ability, it's meant to only be used very rarely. It's dangerous, and comes with some repercussions... Which I forgot to put in! Will do so.
    Interrupt is powerful. The class is powerful. Cool beans! As long as it doesn't get to the point where it's broken, I'm happy.
    As for the special abilities, I also forgot to put in "more to come".

    As far as the others, the paladin is my favorite piece of homebrew ever. I'm playing one soon, and I'll post my impressions once I have some.
    Thank you.

    I think it should go to mention that a lot of paladins that face these situations are expected to die in suicidal combat when they take the third option. If they don't, they fall. They're like samurai in that sense.
    Yep. That's why I wanted to make it more powerful. That's also why I added the Holy Surge & Sacrifice abilities, as a nice middle finger to any DMs who decided to pull that one.

    Can your paladin turn undead? If not, it should be 'as a cleric turns undead'.
    Yes, it can. 2nd level.

    What's the specifics? Is it the same as WotC? At-will? Aura?
    Well, it's a detect evil spell, and he gets a permanent one. I really don't see any room for other interpretation.

    I always thought that smite evil should've just been expanded to 1d6*levels in paladin. This is alright too. But maybe, with a concentration check or whatever, they could apply charisma modifier and 1d6*levels in paladin damage, standard action?
    A simple, non-TWFing, hasted paladin could then deal 100d6 damage in a full attack. No. Though I might add that as a standard action special ability, ala hideous blow.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    A simple, non-TWFing, hasted paladin could then deal 100d6 damage in a full attack. No. Though I might add that as a standard action special ability, ala hideous blow.


    Um... I'm one for doing that. After my DM approves the class first, of course

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kobold-Bard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Now the Anarch is finished, I thought I'd give a little poke to the healing special ability you said you'd add to the Paladin a while back.

    Otherwise the Anarch seems to kicks ass, though CtPo is unbelelievably complex (something I often see people critisized for in homebrew), and the last two abilities need an ex, su, sp tag.
    Piratebold-Bard by Elder Tsofu | Backer #121 of the Giantitp Kickstarter | My homebrew
    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordJ View Post
    New law: Obey me or you'll be crushed by a MOUNTAIN.

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Now the Anarch is finished, I thought I'd give a little poke to the healing special ability you said you'd add to the Paladin a while back.
    Done. Sortof. I figured the Paladin needs its standard actions.

    Otherwise the Anarch seems to kicks ass, though CtPo is unbelelievably complex (something I often see people critisized for in homebrew), and the last two abilities need an ex, su, sp tag.
    It's not going to be used a lot, and when it's used, each roll of the die is going to be cause for bated breath. I happen to like its complexity.

    Anyways!
    Does anyone have any ideas for Anarch or even Vis Veris Vesica special abilities? Anything they'd like to see a powermonger or insane anarchist get?
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lix Lorn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Usaki City, Syona
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Anyways!
    Does anyone have any ideas for Anarch or even Vis Veris Vesica special abilities? Anything they'd like to see a powermonger or insane anarchist get?
    Seduction!
    Oh, wait, it already fits me. (Giggles)
    Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
    Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
    Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your nightmares!!!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    This class......this class makes me want to play an LG character! Oh my god this paladin looks awesome. I love the bardic spell casting progression. I also love the features of Swift Crusader. I was playing a Duskblade and generally not enjoying it, but this class looks so much better!

    I do have to ask though, why give them 3 exotic weapon proficiencies? That did seem a bit unbalanced to me. I think maybe giving them a choice of one seems a bit more fair.

    Though, that is only an opinion and not in any way meant to be a criticism. Overall, it looks amazing!
    Currently Playing:
    Rikard Loghaine in [4E] Grandpre Academy

    Antivian Qualinyr in [4E] Keep on the Shadowfell

    Avatar by the talented and generous Grinner!!!!

    Check out this awesome website for D&D, MTG, Anime, Music, Movies, and more!!!



  7. - Top - End - #217
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arq Kujos View Post
    I do have to ask though, why give them 3 exotic weapon proficiencies? That did seem a bit unbalanced to me. I think maybe giving them a choice of one seems a bit more fair.
    It's 3 of the worst exotic weapons in the game, all 3 of them are virtually identical, and you're STILL better off using a 2 handed weapon. Well, probably: this class does have less of a focus on pure melee. Anyways, it just makes sword & board a viable option. Trust me, giving it those 3 proficiencies in no way added to its power- just made for more build options.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your nightmares!!!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Ehh, good point. I had not considered that. It is still so hard for me to keep in perspective the power of a tier 3 class. These concepts are so foreign to me. For the longest time, it was either "Full Caster" or "Fail".
    Currently Playing:
    Rikard Loghaine in [4E] Grandpre Academy

    Antivian Qualinyr in [4E] Keep on the Shadowfell

    Avatar by the talented and generous Grinner!!!!

    Check out this awesome website for D&D, MTG, Anime, Music, Movies, and more!!!



  9. - Top - End - #219
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your nightmares!!!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Also, have you been able to playtest this yet? I'm going to in a couple weeks and I'd love so pro tips from someone who has played this class.
    Currently Playing:
    Rikard Loghaine in [4E] Grandpre Academy

    Antivian Qualinyr in [4E] Keep on the Shadowfell

    Avatar by the talented and generous Grinner!!!!

    Check out this awesome website for D&D, MTG, Anime, Music, Movies, and more!!!



  10. - Top - End - #220
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arq Kujos View Post
    Also, have you been able to playtest this yet? I'm going to in a couple weeks and I'd love so pro tips from someone who has played this class.
    Actually, I have not... but my hubris is such that I believe I can judge its balance at a glance.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  11. - Top - End - #221
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Roc Ness's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arq Kujos View Post
    Also, have you been able to playtest this yet? I'm going to in a couple weeks and I'd love so pro tips from someone who has played this class.
    Hey Arq! If you try to convince our DM to let Lethren take levels in this class, I will back you the whole way through.
    Just Sayin'

    Anyhow, I don't have any pro tips for this, but I have done some sorta simulation battles with it at different levels, so I could give you some general tips.

    Spoiler
    Show
    1) The Spell Compedium has heaps of ridiculously cool and useful paladin spells you can use with this class. Two of note are Knight's Move, which allows a teleport at a swift action, and Righteous Aura, which grants a sacred bonus to Charisma (so it stacks with pretty much anything, except Sacrifice, sadly) for hours and makes you self-destruct upon death, healing your allies and hurting your enemies. The down side is that afterwards you can only be raised with True Ressurection.

    2) Turn undead on this Paladin is actually really, really useful. When being mobbed by lots of undead, fiends and the like, a swift-action turn can thin the crowd very well and make your life a bit easier. It gets even more useful at level 18 (or was it 19?) when you can turn anything evil. If you are going to use it a lot, the Turn-Undead special abilities are reccommended. You could still use it to do divine metamagic like the clerics do, except most of spells aren't as useful to you persisted.

    3) Undead paladins can't use sacrifice without literally sacrificing themselves at the end of it. Undead paladins now need to make sure that whoever heals [harms] them has a good way of restoring mobility at the same time. They also will have a bit of trouble healing themselves without using a Special Ability to get negative energy spells. Construct paladins will simply have touble healing at all, as the Repair spells are not part of the Cleric or Bard spell line. Unliving and Construct Paladins are advised to take the Unliving Healing ability so as to be able to heal themselves at early levels without needing to invest in UMD items or sinking Special Abilities into negative energy spells.

    4) Use Sacrifice carefully, and only when you are sure allies nearby can get to you immediately when you reach -1. Readied actions are very useful for this, you can move next to an ally with a readied Heal, collapse, and be immediately put back on your feet by said ally.

    5) A paladin with a mount companion with spirited charge and a lance is very, very deadly.

    6) If you have lots of Allies, get the defensive aura special abilities. These become even greater if you have gestalt levels in Marshal or Dragon Shaman, or if you are dragonblooded and have the Draconic Aura feat, as all your allies simply need to stay within 6 squares of you to reap double benefits.

    7) Thanks to the endless Paladin level to Damage vs Evil, Two weapon fighting are actually a little bit viable, as you get double that Holy Strike damage. However, you will still be useless if you can't find ways to Full-Attack. Also, you still are a bit feat-starved, and might have trouble fulfilling the ability requirements of certain feats.

    8) As No. 7, but with Archery. Unlike TWF, you can full-attack (and gain many, many extra attacks) easily for a lot of damage. With Archery, you could be even more feat-starved than with TWF, though, asides from having the same requirement-filling problem.

    9) Note that Holy Strike applies to all damage from the paladin. Hitting a Zombie with a Cure Light Wounds will also net extra damage. Throwing Alchemist's fire will generate Holy Strike damage with all enemies hit with splash damage.

    10) There are a fair few spells that gain deal ridiculous damage when channeled via Swift Crusader, however, most of them are high-level and not really viable until then. Of note are Bolt of Glory, up to 15d6 untyped no-save damage to an undead or evil outsider, and Heal and Harm (gained via special ability), both of which deal up to 150hp damage (Will save for half). In addition, of note is that you can combine this channelling ability with a full-attack to affect two or more allies (or one ally more than twice) with a single spell. A full-attack on an ally with a channelled Heal spell could heal 600-damage hit points.

    11) Never forget the Justiciar ability, if you ever need to subdue a violent or sadistic Neutral being. The Subduing Strike feat allows you to deal non-lethal damage with absolute ease should you be required to subdue non-evil beings often.

    That's pretty much all I can think of. This Paladin is best unmulticlassed, but if you are going to multiclass the best levels to exit Paladin are 3, 5, 7 and possibly 11. If you are going to play this Paladin in a Gestalt game, I recommend a class with lots of Charisma synergy (obviously). The Marshal is a good dip (you can get Charisma to Initiative using the Motivate Charisma aura), Sorcerer is good if you don't mind not wearing heavy armor, and from sorcerer you can take levels in the Abjurant Champion (+9 AC Shield, Swiftblade (Charisma to Initiative, huge benefits while hasted like extra actions) or Arcane Duelist (Charisma to AC in a 2-level dip) PRCs. Bard is also good if you would like the Snowflake Wardance feat and can ignore alignment restrictions. Martial Initiators are always good, as usual. Rogue and Scout are okay if you just want extra Skill Points. Rogue is better than Scout in general (plus Rogues have that variant is fighter bonus feats), but Scout fits better thematically (a Paladin shouldn't be a rogue!). Ranger is a very viable class if you want to play a TWF/Archery Paladin, thanks to bonus feats that don't require you to have X insane unpaladinish Dex, and you can combine Ranger with Scout for a Swift Hunter build. Ranger has little ability synergy, however. Favored Soul and Cleric are good, but the abilities you get are a bit redundant, they eat up action economy a bit and unlike the Sorcerer they don't really have all that many PRCs that could grant new benefits to the Paladin.

    If you want good homebrew classes to multiclass/Gestalt with, I could suggest Lix Lorn's Proud Warrior and Dragoonwraith's Swordmage, off the top of my head. Both because they have good Charisma synergy.
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-10-05 at 11:32 PM.

    Pokedex #999: Roc Ness
    Avvie by Serpentine.

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Beautiful thing about turning with this paladin is that it's actually good for turning (having many uses for it, and potential buffs) while it's mediocre for DMM (having less uses than the standard cleric).
    Also, didn't notice that about the undead paladin & sacrifice... good point though! I'll have to do something about that.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your nightmares!!!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Roc, you are one of my favorite people right now.

    Allow me to retort, good sir.

    Spoiler
    Show

    1) I love the Spell Compedium. As you said, there are more goodies there than some of us know what to do with. I am only level 3 right now, but so far this is amazingly tempting.

    2) I love Turn undead. It is an incredible and this class is such a great class for that. I mean, who needs the ability to turn undead more than a Paladin? And the added turning at later levels in amazing.

    3) Never planned on playing an Undead Paladin, unless 4is111 has something WAY off the mark in store for me.

    4) Sacrifice is something I would save for a combat finisher. Thanks for the advice though.

    5) Truly, enough said. Plus, Lethren needs the move help and badly.

    6) I like the idea of gestaulting in Marshall or Dragon Shaman, but I need to run some numbers first.

    7) As nice as TWFing is, Lethren has a 7 in Dex. Remember?

    8) See Number 7.

    9) Holy Strike makes my mouth water it is so good. Though, we have been fighting a lot of neutral lately.

    If I was to take a class like this, I would never leave it.

    As far as Gestault is concerned, I think I would probably stay with Favored Soul, though Warmage for the boom is nice, or maybe the Sorcerer sounds good.
    Last edited by Arq Kujos; 2010-10-05 at 11:04 PM.
    Currently Playing:
    Rikard Loghaine in [4E] Grandpre Academy

    Antivian Qualinyr in [4E] Keep on the Shadowfell

    Avatar by the talented and generous Grinner!!!!

    Check out this awesome website for D&D, MTG, Anime, Music, Movies, and more!!!



  14. - Top - End - #224
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Roc Ness's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arq Kujos View Post
    Roc, you are one of my favorite people right now.

    Allow me to retort, good sir.

    Spoiler
    Show

    1) I love the Spell Compedium. As you said, there are more goodies there than some of us know what to do with. I am only level 3 right now, but so far this is amazingly tempting.

    2) I love Turn undead. It is an incredible and this class is such a great class for that. I mean, who needs the ability to turn undead more than a Paladin? And the added turning at later levels in amazing.

    3) Never planned on playing an Undead Paladin, unless 4is111 has something WAY off the mark in store for me.

    4) Sacrifice is something I would save for a combat finisher. Thanks for the advice though.

    5) Truly, enough said. Plus, Lethren needs the move help and badly.

    6) I like the idea of gestaulting in Marshall or Dragon Shaman, but I need to run some numbers first.

    7) As nice as TWFing is, Lethren has a 7 in Dex. Remember?

    8) See Number 7.

    9) Holy Strike makes my mouth water it is so good. Though, we have been fighting a lot of neutral lately.

    If I was to take a class like this, I would never leave it.

    As far as Gestault is concerned, I think I would probably stay with Favored Soul, though Warmage for the boom is nice, or maybe the Sorcerer sounds good.


    I'm gonna add some more info to that info post that I previously overlooked or need to change. Also, even if you aren't going to use archery or TWF, somebody else might.

    If I ever get Caromire back (even as a ghost or something), I'm going to run him anew as an archery paladin...
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-10-05 at 11:08 PM.

    Pokedex #999: Roc Ness
    Avvie by Serpentine.

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arq Kujos View Post
    9) Holy Strike makes my mouth water it is so good. Though, we have been fighting a lot of neutral lately.
    Remember Justiciar! Once you can get it. >.>
    If it's a problem, I advise an investment in Knight Templar: that'll make it easily the majority of all enemies you face that is affected by holy strike. Also, remember the code! You attack a neutral person who isn't actively harming someone, you fall- if they're not evil, they deserve repentance as much as the next guy.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your nightmares!!!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Oh yes, Justicar! I forgot about that. That would have been a big help. I think I have smote one character our entire campaign.

    Oh, and I have a suggestion for special ability. What about an ability that allowed you to smite non-evil creatures for non-lethal damage? Like you said, killing non-evil creatures is grounds for falling, but I think knocking them out is still acceptable.
    Currently Playing:
    Rikard Loghaine in [4E] Grandpre Academy

    Antivian Qualinyr in [4E] Keep on the Shadowfell

    Avatar by the talented and generous Grinner!!!!

    Check out this awesome website for D&D, MTG, Anime, Music, Movies, and more!!!



  17. - Top - End - #227
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Roc Ness's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Hey Gorgondantess? I just thought of something, you might want to put in a clause or ability somewhere that allows a Construct or Undead paladin to heal themselves with Positive Energy, so that they don't have to invest in UMD scrolls or the Harm spell.

    Pokedex #999: Roc Ness
    Avvie by Serpentine.

  18. - Top - End - #228
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arq Kujos View Post
    Oh yes, Justicar! I forgot about that. That would have been a big help. I think I have smote one character our entire campaign.

    Oh, and I have a suggestion for special ability. What about an ability that allowed you to smite non-evil creatures for non-lethal damage? Like you said, killing non-evil creatures is grounds for falling, but I think knocking them out is still acceptable.
    Hmmm... I'll think about it. While it's certainly mechanically a cool ability, I don't like the fluff: the paladin smites evil. That's his job. Anything else, well... that's not a part of his job. He's still a good fighter, but his powers don't really apply to it: in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong, or your DM reaaalllly doesn't like having evil creatures.

    Hey Gorgondantess? I just thought of something, you might want to put in a clause or ability somewhere that allows a Construct or Undead paladin to heal themselves with Positive Energy, so that they don't have to invest in UMD scrolls or the Harm spell.
    I'll make it a special ability.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-10-05 at 11:24 PM.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  19. - Top - End - #229
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Roc Ness's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I'll make it a special ability.
    Okey-Doke. I guess the More to Come is fitting.

    Pokedex #999: Roc Ness
    Avvie by Serpentine.

  20. - Top - End - #230
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your nightmares!!!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Hmmm... I'll think about it. While it's certainly mechanically a cool ability, I don't like the fluff: the paladin smites evil. That's his job. Anything else, well... that's not a part of his job. He's still a good fighter, but his powers don't really apply to it: in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong, or your DM reaaalllly doesn't like having evil creatures.
    True, but think if it as a safeguard against Dms that think that just because they have neutral villains that they are making more believable campaigns. Also, eventually, Paladins may come into conflict with neutral characters and having a way of dealing with them in order to save them from their own inability to understand their folly.

    And again, this is just a suggestion. I can totally see your point, but I thought this idea was atleast worth mentioning.
    Currently Playing:
    Rikard Loghaine in [4E] Grandpre Academy

    Antivian Qualinyr in [4E] Keep on the Shadowfell

    Avatar by the talented and generous Grinner!!!!

    Check out this awesome website for D&D, MTG, Anime, Music, Movies, and more!!!



  21. - Top - End - #231
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    Okey-Doke. I guess the More to Come is fitting.
    That it is: I'll keep updating the special abilities so long as I still have ideas.
    Anyways, I edited in the ability.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  22. - Top - End - #232
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ziegander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Pabrygg Keep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Also, a lot of monsters are neutral, especially ones that don't understand the ramifications of their actions. A Paladin could potentially come into conflict with a myriad of non-intelligent, neutral creatures.

    Anyway, so much of this is totally awesome, so great job. There are a smattering of design decisions that I don't agree with, but on the whole this thing looks like a lot of fun to play.
    Homebrew


    Other Stuff
    Spoiler
    Show
    Special Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!

  23. - Top - End - #233
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Also, a lot of monsters are neutral, especially ones that don't understand the ramifications of their actions. A Paladin could potentially come into conflict with a myriad of non-intelligent, neutral creatures.
    Okay. Great. It still won't specialize in fighting them. This is sort of like a rogue who fights a lot of enemies immune to precision: it just sort of sucks, and there are ways around it (grave strike, golem strike), but those are still fallible and kindof hard to get, and it still doesn't mean you're useless- just that you're not as useful. You're still doing better than most melee classes, lemme tell ya.

    Anyway, so much of this is totally awesome, so great job. There are a smattering of design decisions that I don't agree with, but on the whole this thing looks like a lot of fun to play.
    I would like to hear these smatterings regardless.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  24. - Top - End - #234
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ziegander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Pabrygg Keep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Prepare thyself! For the long post! We'll start with some minor disagreements and then move on to the actual meat of the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    And this is where WotC failed. Back in AD&D, the paladin was just like the fighter, but flat out better. In 3.5, the paladin is kindof like the fighter, but it doesn't have stuff like the dungeoncrasher variant to make it usable. The point of the fall and the alignment restrictions is a penalty and a restriction to balance out the paladin being more powerful than other fighter type classes.
    1) I don't agree with making the class more powerful and balancing that with a code of conduct. Granting extra mechanical power in the face of a roleplay disadvantage just isn't the way I like to do things. Personally I find it unbalanced in the same way I'd find reducing mechanical power in the face of a roleplay advantage unbalanced. Your mileage may vary.

    So long as the paladin does not fall to such temptations- so long as the paladin tries to find the third option in these situations- the paladin should not fall.
    2) I also disagree that the existence of Cosmic Good and the existence of Paladins guarantees that there is always this happy funtime third option to be found. That seems to assume that Cosmic Good always triumphs over Cosmic Evil, and that's fine for some campaigns, but in many others (in fact most if not all of the published ones) the struggle is a constant back and forth and/or a near-eternal stalemate.

    HD: d12
    3) Mechanically, this doesn't bother me. +1hp/level more than the standard Paladin. Big deal. It's not like +1hp/level actually makes the Barbarian any more tough than the other meleers.

    Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all armor and all shields (including tower shields). Paladins are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as the maul, warmace and bastard sword.
    4) As you've pointed out, the exotics don't really add to the power, and I like that they're proficient with Tower Shields because Tower Shields are a lot of fun. This is fine.

    Spellcasting:
    Spoiler
    Show

    A Paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When the table indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

    The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited. A paladin begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new paladin level, he gains two new spells drawn from the paladin spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level paladin spell, but could learn a 2nd level paladin spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a paladin knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.

    Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third paladin level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the paladin "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level paladin spell the paladin can cast. A paladin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

    As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

    Spell List:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Orisons: As a cleric.
    1st-4th levels: as a WotC paladin, plus Order's Wrath & Holy Smite as 3rd level spells.
    5th level: Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow, Hold Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Seeing, Wall of Fire.
    6th level: Antimagic Field, Bull's Strength (mass), Crown of Glory, Dictum, Dispel Magic (greater), Eagle's Splendor (mass), Heal, Holy Word, Power Word: Blind, Sunbeam.


    Aura of Good (ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. Any evil creature using detect good on the paladin must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are dazed for 1 round.
    5) First real issue. You raised the spells to Bardic progression and yet you hardly altered their spell list. I think perhaps you held back slightly more than necessary. I would have added a bunch more spells to levels 1-4 and added more to levels 5 and 6. Especially if I was trying to make this rival CoDzilla. Still avoid a lot of the Divine Persist shenanigans, but there's plenty of other spells that could have made it.

    But honestly, I prefer a Paladin that doesn't cast spells, but that's just my personal taste. I hate the spells and slots per day mechanics of the 3.5 spellcasters (not to say I prefer the 4e way either...).

    Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good.
    6) I think most of the confusion people are having with this is that Detect Evil is an effect with duration of Concentration and has different effects depending on how long you Concentrate. I assume you just intend for them to be able to Concentrate whenever they feel like to begin a Detect Evil effect? This could be clarified, but it makes sense to me.

    The alternative would be that they constantly are aware of the presence of Evil creatures without needing to use any specific action, and then you might need to specify "how aware" they are (with respect to the different information Detect Evil grants each round).

    Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level.
    7) I have another issue with this one, mostly because it has negligible benefit at the lowest levels. I'd rather it have some serious oomph at all levels of play. What about 1d6 damage/paladin level with a Will save for half? Your example of a hasted, full attacking 20th level Pally would deal 100d6 to an evil creature, and only an evil creature (avg of 400dmg, or with a successful save avg 200dmg), as a full round action, and only if he hits with all five attacks. A 17th level Warblade can deal 100dmg to any creature as a standard action. Seems fair to me.

    Just Templar: The Paladin is recognizable as a servant of justice: they gain a +4 bonus to all ability & skill checks made to sway a judge or otherwise as a part of the legal process.
    Additionally, the paladin gains a bonus to diplomacy and sense motive checks equal to 1/2 his class levels: these bonuses stack.
    8) Nitpick: I would just say that the Paladin gains a bonus equal to 4+1/2 paladin level to charisma skill and ability checks made to interact with all Lawful and/or Good creatures. a) It's simpler. b) The Paladin shouldn't be any better than normal at dealing with Evil or Chaotic creatures.

    Turn Undead (su): The Paladin may turn undead as a cleric. The paladin may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day. The Paladin can have negative uses from low charisma.
    9) How does the concept of "negative uses" of a per day ability work exactly? It should read "[...] may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day, to a minimum of 0."

    Divine Grace (su): The Paladin gains a bonus to all saves equal to her charisma modifier. The Paladin can have a penalty from low charisma.
    10) I like this. What was, and still is, a really powerful ability, is now also a double-edged sword.

    Swift Crusader (su): a number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may either cast a spell that normally takes a standard action or turn undead (or anything else she can turn) as a swift action.
    Additionally, the paladin may expend one use of Swift Crusader to channel a spell through a melee attack, during either a standard attack or a full attack action.
    11) Much more balanced than the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion, although you might have gotten away with adding more uses.

    Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin gains a special ability chosen from the pool below.
    12) Nitpick: Can you please move the list of special abilities to directly under this heading? For a while I thought Justiciar, Holy Strike, Turn Demon, etc were Special Abilities rather than class features.

    Justiciar (ex): A number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may, as a free action, consider all creatures evil until the end of the round for the purposes of spells or abilities originating from the paladin. For example, the paladin may expend a use to attack a non-evil enemy and still gain the bonus to damage from holy smite.
    This does not extend to the paladin's code of conduct- for example, if he kills an innocent, good creature with this ability, the paladin will still fall.
    13) This seems completely and entirely out of character for the Paladin as you've written it and interpreted its code of conduct. Also, this will cause some wonky results with certain spells or effects because of the "all creatures" clause (such as catching allies within the area of a Holy Word spell, and other things of that nature).

    Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead.

    Turn Anarch: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the chaotic subtype as he would normally turn undead.

    Turn Mutant: The Paladin may turn evil aligned aberrations as he would normally turn undead.

    Turn Evil: The Paladin may turn any evil aligned creature as he would turn undead.
    14) This is great stuff. :)

    Destroy the Destroyer: The Paladin's bonus to attack and damage against evil creatures due to Holy Strike and Holy Smite is doubled when the creature in question is chaotic evil. In addition, the paladin's charisma modifier is doubled for the purposes of turning checks & turning damage against chaotic evil creatures.
    15) If you decided to take my suggestion for Smite you could just deny Chaotic Evil creatures their Will save to halve the damage.

    Holy Surge: In times of dire need, the paladin expels all his divine power in one surge: as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the paladin may cast both a miracle and wish spell with no xp cost. The paladin immediately "falls" as a part of this action: the atonement spell cast uses half the xp that would have been spent on the wish & miracle spell.
    A paladin will often use this ability in times of dire need, such as when presented a scenario where, whatever the choice, he will fall.
    16) I really, really don't like this ability. There's no need to call shenanigans, because this is shenanigans. It's the "hey, I'm really mechanically powerful, but to balance it out I have a code of conduct that says I can't do stuff. Oh, fuck it, I'm just gonna go ahead and do whatever I want, and then go get an Atonement from McChapel over there," button. And it's absurdly powerful reality revision which is essentially at-will, which doesn't feel like something any Paladin should be able to do anyway.

    Ineffable Justiciar: As Justiciar, but permanent. The bonuses presented from destroy the destroyer now extend to all actually evil creatures (not including creatures considered evil under Ineffable Justiciar).
    17) As before. This seemed out of place as a per day feature and feels even more out of place to me as a constant ability. I know you've included it so that the Paladin can be useful against non-Evil creatures, but in your own words, "[...] in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong[...]".


    Expanded Zeal:
    The paladin may add any spell from the bard or cleric spell list to his spells known of a level no higher than his current highest paladin spell known. This spell is of a level one higher than normal: for example, if a paladin of at least 6th level took heroism from the bard spell list, he would cast it as a 3rd level spell.
    This special ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spell.
    18) Actually, this can apply to the Exalted Paladin one too. Given the choice between gaining an Exalted feat or adding a single spell to my spell list, and picking up an awesome, unique class feature I'm going to go with the latter every time. The other Special Abilities seem to not only give me more bang for my buck, but are just cool and unique. Of course, this is more of a minor point since these are fully the player's choice, I just thought it couldn't hurt to bring it up.

    Improved Turning:
    The paladin gains +1 use of turning per day, +1 to turning checks, and +1 to turning damage.
    This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.
    19) Feels very, very weak compared to the other special abilities.

    Powerful Turn:
    Requires: Improved Turning.
    All creatures successfully turned are shaken for the duration. This is not a mind-affecting effect.
    20) So they flee from you as fast as they can and they take a -2 penalty to attacks and saves while doing it? I'm not sure this is worth it honestly. They're evading you to the best of their ability. If they're any good at it this extra penalty doesn't matter that much.

    Dazing Turn:
    Requires: Powerful Turn
    All creatures who would be shaken due to powerful turn are instead dazed.
    21) Now this one is interesting, and actually really powerful. Instead of running away now they just sit there and do nothing for 1 whole minute! Pretty nuts. Maybe too nuts.

    Stunning Turn:
    Requires: Dazing Turn
    All creatures who would be dazed due to dazing turn are instead stunned.
    22) Another case where this might not be worth it. Many more creatures are immune to Stun than immune to Daze, and the added AC penalty isn't all that huge most of the time.

    Anyway, I think that's all I've got. Anything I didn't specifically comment on I thought was fine as is.
    Homebrew


    Other Stuff
    Spoiler
    Show
    Special Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!

  25. - Top - End - #235
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Prepare thyself! For the long post! We'll start with some minor disagreements and then move on to the actual meat of the class.
    Hot damn.

    1) I don't agree with making the class more powerful and balancing that with a code of conduct. Granting extra mechanical power in the face of a roleplay disadvantage just isn't the way I like to do things. Personally I find it unbalanced in the same way I'd find reducing mechanical power in the face of a roleplay advantage unbalanced. Your mileage may vary.
    It does indeed.



    2) I also disagree that the existence of Cosmic Good and the existence of Paladins guarantees that there is always this happy funtime third option to be found. That seems to assume that Cosmic Good always triumphs over Cosmic Evil, and that's fine for some campaigns, but in many others (in fact most if not all of the published ones) the struggle is a constant back and forth and/or a near-eternal stalemate.
    Goddammit... Okay, I think I need to include an addendum there. I'm not saying there is always a third option that will succeed: I'm saying a paladin will always try to find one, no matter how hopeless it may be.

    3, 4
    Cool.

    5) First real issue. You raised the spells to Bardic progression and yet you hardly altered their spell list. I think perhaps you held back slightly more than necessary. I would have added a bunch more spells to levels 1-4 and added more to levels 5 and 6. Especially if I was trying to make this rival CoDzilla. Still avoid a lot of the Divine Persist shenanigans, but there's plenty of other spells that could have made it.[/spoiler]
    Core paladin? Yeah, that has a mediocre spell list. But once the spell compendium hits the scene, you're golden: I was honestly counting on that.

    But honestly, I prefer a Paladin that doesn't cast spells, but that's just my personal taste. I hate the spells and slots per day mechanics of the 3.5 spellcasters (not to say I prefer the 4e way either...).
    So... you don't like D&D spellcasting, period?

    6) I think most of the confusion people are having with this is that Detect Evil is an effect with duration of Concentration and has different effects depending on how long you Concentrate. I assume you just intend for them to be able to Concentrate whenever they feel like to begin a Detect Evil effect? This could be clarified, but it makes sense to me.

    The alternative would be that they constantly are aware of the presence of Evil creatures without needing to use any specific action, and then you might need to specify "how aware" they are (with respect to the different information Detect Evil grants each round).
    Hmmm... okay. I'll try specifying sometime. Good point.

    7) I have another issue with this one, mostly because it has negligible benefit at the lowest levels. I'd rather it have some serious oomph at all levels of play. What about 1d6 damage/paladin level with a Will save for half? Your example of a hasted, full attacking 20th level Pally would deal 100d6 to an evil creature, and only an evil creature (avg of 400dmg, or with a successful save avg 200dmg), as a full round action, and only if he hits with all five attacks. A 17th level Warblade can deal 100dmg to any creature as a standard action. Seems fair to me.
    Negligible benefit at low levels is A-OK to me. I structured this so that it wasn't a dip class.
    Anyways, holy smite is just one small item in a paladin's arsenal: it's just to give a little oomph to his attacks not some serious oomph. Serious oomph comes in with sacrifice and turning.

    8) Nitpick: I would just say that the Paladin gains a bonus equal to 4+1/2 paladin level to charisma skill and ability checks made to interact with all Lawful and/or Good creatures. a) It's simpler. b) The Paladin shouldn't be any better than normal at dealing with Evil or Chaotic creatures.
    Yes, he should. He should be able to offer them the chance at redemption (convincingly), and be able to tell when they're deceiving him. That was my goal here. The courts thing was mostly fluff.

    9) How does the concept of "negative uses" of a per day ability work exactly? It should read "[...] may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day, to a minimum of 0."
    Oh, it doesn't. It's really meaningless. I just sortof wanted to convey that it can hit 0: I'll clarify, I suppose.


    10) I like this. What was, and still is, a really powerful ability, is now also a double-edged sword.
    Yeppers!

    11) Much more balanced than the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion, although you might have gotten away with adding more uses.
    Eh, I could've. I didn't want to. A lot of paladin spells are swift actions already.


    12) Nitpick: Can you please move the list of special abilities to directly under this heading? For a while I thought Justiciar, Holy Strike, Turn Demon, etc were Special Abilities rather than class features.
    Nope, but I'll specify that they're at the bottom of the page.


    13) This seems completely and entirely out of character for the Paladin as you've written it and interpreted its code of conduct. Also, this will cause some wonky results with certain spells or effects because of the "all creatures" clause (such as catching allies within the area of a Holy Word spell, and other things of that nature).
    How so? If a paladin kills a good creature, they'll still fall. It's just so that they don't get shafted when their DM sends neutral creatures at them all the time.
    Ever play Mass Effect? The original paladins were sortof like Specters: agents who were so above the law, they were the law. If a paladin deems the destruction of a non-evil creature a good thing, then he should be able to smite said creature, no?
    Though the holy word thing is a good point. I'll change 'all' to 'any'.

    14) This is great stuff. :)
    Honestly, I threw all the turning stuff in as filler. I didn't know it was a good idea until after I'd already posted the class.


    15) If you decided to take my suggestion for Smite you could just deny Chaotic Evil creatures their Will save to halve the damage.
    Which I won't. Sorry.

    16) I really, really don't like this ability. There's no need to call shenanigans, because this is shenanigans. It's the "hey, I'm really mechanically powerful, but to balance it out I have a code of conduct that says I can't do stuff. Oh, fuck it, I'm just gonna go ahead and do whatever I want, and then go get an Atonement from McChapel over there," button. And it's absurdly powerful reality revision which is essentially at-will, which doesn't feel like something any Paladin should be able to do anyway.
    Well, have fun churning out all your xp.

    17) As before. This seemed out of place as a per day feature and feels even more out of place to me as a constant ability. I know you've included it so that the Paladin can be useful against non-Evil creatures, but in your own words, "[...] in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong[...]".
    ...Or the DM is shafting you. That's a possibility. And at level 20, you're probably fighting things that just can't be reasoned with, evil or no.


    18) Actually, this can apply to the Exalted Paladin one too. Given the choice between gaining an Exalted feat or adding a single spell to my spell list, and picking up an awesome, unique class feature I'm going to go with the latter every time. The other Special Abilities seem to not only give me more bang for my buck, but are just cool and unique. Of course, this is more of a minor point since these are fully the player's choice, I just thought it couldn't hurt to bring it up.
    They're just options I felt like throwing in. However, note that the expanded zeal allows you to get spells outside of your spell list:


    19) Feels very, very weak compared to the other special abilities.
    Maybe. It's a requisite: sortof like dodge.

    20) So they flee from you as fast as they can and they take a -2 penalty to attacks and saves while doing it? I'm not sure this is worth it honestly. They're evading you to the best of their ability. If they're any good at it this extra penalty doesn't matter that much.
    Hmm... good point. Some of the special abilities were sortof rushed, I'll admit.

    21) Now this one is interesting, and actually really powerful. Instead of running away now they just sit there and do nothing for 1 whole minute! Pretty nuts. Maybe too nuts.
    Requires two mediocre other abilities though. I knew this had to happen: I also knew it was too powerful to be present without balancing. See how Gorgie's mind works?

    22) Another case where this might not be worth it. Many more creatures are immune to Stun than immune to Daze, and the added AC penalty isn't all that huge most of the time.
    Ah, but it is! I suppose. I'll look into it.

    Anyways... thanks for the comments. I'll make with the editing first thing in the morning.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  26. - Top - End - #236
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Abilene, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    No idea who it is. Isn't Angel, isn't Spike...
    It is Spike, actually, right after he killed the Chinese Slayer. Hence the Buddha in the background.

    I think.
    Vincent Omnia Veritas
    Bandwagon Leader of the Hinjo Fanclub

  27. - Top - End - #237
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lix Lorn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Usaki City, Syona
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    Oooh. Thanks.
    Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
    Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
    Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Abilene, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    I feel I should comment helpfully now that I've pointed out that it's Spike. Firstly, I really enjoyed the class and it gives me a picture of a much more EPIC paladin than prior versions have. In particular, I get an image of an angry, mighty Paladin standing alone on a wall, turning back (or destroying) waves of evil minions with a single turning effect, beating the ever-living crap out of their master as there is an evacuation. Which is probably exactly what you were going for.

    Unfortunately, there is just one minor problem, namely that as you get higher up in level, you turn more and more things. This leads to an added and messy situation. As a Paladin, I am unable to kill any evil creatures that I am not legally allowed to kill. The following situation is perfectly reasonable, I think, so follow along, though of course it smacks of a contrived

    I've reached level eighteen and have advanced in the service of my king, who has ordered me to protect and guide his (evil) son (I took the Leadership feat, and the DM and I worked it out so he is my level 9 cohort. He's been leveling up quickly, but the DM can't justify having a level 16 heir right off), in the hopes that some of my scrumptious goodness will rub off. We have a long-term arrangement, and off we go to fight the enemy hordes! Charge and all that.

    So here we are on the frontlines, we're back to back alone against what looks like an infinite orc horde (because the prince, in a solidly positive show, agreed to stay and fight with me as we tried to hold the line while a horde of innocents evacuated.) and I activate my (crazy over-active) turning ability.... And suddenly, I vaporize my prince. The turning mechanism doesn't allow for targeting, and I had the misfortune of rolling the maximum amount on my turning check.

    That's a particularly detailed explanation for what is basically a statement that Turning doesn't have a targeting mechanism, but I wanted to give a good, reasonable situation where the options don't include, "Get sixty feet from the evil teammate"

    EDIT: I suppose I should note that I am unsure from the text as to whether or not each turning action is a whole new set (I.E. I can turn Anarch or Evil Outsider or Undead) or they just merge (IE I turn Anarchs, Demons, and Undead with one single turning move)

    EDIT II: There looks like there are a couple of instances that will cause some havoc as well, if it comes up. Perhaps you should add a clause to the code stating that, "As a paladin's abilities are all derived from his personal holiness, they never accidentally transgress the paladin's code or work against his holy purpose. In any instance where they might do so, they do not, either ignoring targets who might otherwise be victims of them or affecting them in a way that won't cause permanent damage." Also, I misunderstood slightly, so my cohort is even lower level now. Oh well.
    Last edited by White Blade; 2010-10-09 at 08:53 PM.
    Vincent Omnia Veritas
    Bandwagon Leader of the Hinjo Fanclub

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    What about lay on hands and divine health?
    78% of of DMs started there first campaign in a tavern . If your one of the 22% that didn't copy and paste this into your signature

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Galileo's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

    White Blade, each of the Turn upgrades states that "The Paladin may turn ..." This may just be the MtG player in me speaking, but I interpret that as implying that the Paladin has a choice over whether they do actually turn whatever the turn improvement applies to.
    But then, I often assume that characters have control over their abilities and can disable them as they wish, unless it is stated otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    And two out of three leading anthropomorphic personifications of death agree on the matter.
    Avatar by Dogmantra. Huzzah!
    Happy to be PMed for rants about stuff, lousy jokes, challenges to a duel because I impugned your honour in that restaurant last night. Look, how was I supposed to know it'd fly that far?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •