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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    /CONTEST CLOSED/


    Can an e6 party defeat a Balor?

    Can an e6 party defeat a Balor?

    Can an e6 party defeat a Balor?



    You can see the results and winners here


    Recently in the World's Largest Dungeon thread, the following was posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar View Post
    any attempt to E6 will have to be a joke, because e6 characters can't actually do anything against Balors.
    In general I think Malakar is right, but then, playgrounders are a special breed of insane... I am offering a tantalizing prize* to anyone who can prove that it's possible. And by "prove" I mean "convince me."

    *Tantalizing Prize Package:
    Spoiler
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    If you convince me your party could do it using the rules below, you will receive the following awesome compensation

    FIRST PERSON TO CONVINCE ME:

    1) I will praise you, eloquently, for no less than 200 words right here on this forum. You can sig that ****.

    2) If the praise won't fit in your sig, I will make a digital image of the praise and make it fit.

    3) Next time I run a PbP you get first dibs on being a character, unless you're a douche.

    4) The setting of my next game will feature a deity named after your username. UH HUH! And that deity will be the GOD OF HEROES. I am serious. There will be clerics of You.

    5) Your awesomeness will be added to my sig, bumping the Tarrasque Poop Challenge. You bump the tarrasque. Sorry Eldarin! Eldariel! Whatever your name was!

    SECOND (and later) PERSON(s) TO CONVINCE ME:
    You get the 200 words of praise and the digital image.
    (too many entrants)


    Seriously folks it is called tantalizing for a reason.

    Okay, here are the rules:

    1) Real party. You must use a party that uses the four traditional roles of warrior, skill monkey, arcane caster, and divine caster. You do not have to use Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric. If you want to use Warblade, Factotum, Psion, Druid (or whatever) - feel free.

    2) E6. You must follow the E6 rules. All 4 of your characters are ECL6.
    edit: originally I ruled out LA. Miskidasith however is the spokesman of the common man, and convinced me to relent. As per normal E6 rules you may use lower point buy to buy off up to +4 LA/RHD instead of character levels. However I require you use 6 of your 25 bonus feats on Ability Training and Ability Advancement to offset the point buy.

    3) Feats. Your characters have earned the XP of a 20th level character. Although they cannot advance past 6th level, they can gain an extra feat for every 5,000 XP they earn past 6th level. Your characters have 35 bonus feats apiece plus whatever they would normally earn from levels 1-6. Remember you still need prereqs, and many feats are no longer attainable because 6th level char's can't make the prereqs.

    4) Items.
    Your characters can each have up to 760,000 gp worth of gear, however, only gear built with with level 3 spells or lower is priced normally. Gear built with 4th level spells or higher OR CL7+ costs 20x the listed price because it takes 20 mages to enchant it. No scrolls or wands or 4th level or higher spells are allowed because those spells cannot be cast that quickly.

    5) All 3.5 books are legal (unless in conflict with e6 rules) and so are the special e6 feats and other stuff from the e6 thread. I'll assume we're all mature adults here and no one has to be told that pun-pun doesn't count.
    edit: revised definition of what is too cheesy has been posted below!

    6) Explain. You must detail your party (as much or little detail on builds as you feel is important) and explain how your party can defeat a standard Balor. If you convince me, you win.


    How Much Cheese is Too Much? In general, if your build simply uses a rules exploit by combining abilities from different sources, I consider it acceptable. If however it uses the same rules exploit over and over in a loop to gain much higher results than a simple use of the exploit could provide, You Have Climbed Pun-Pun's Staircase and your level of cheese is too much for this contest. The process is seen (for example) when using lucubration in a loop to gain 9th level spells at a low level, or by gaining taint over and over to power a character who is immune to the problems of taint. Practical optimization lasts all the way up to and upon the landing of Pun-Pun's staircase. But once foot is placed on step and railing is grasped in hand, You Have Climbed Pun-Pun's Staircase.

    OTHER QUESTIONS AND THEIR ANSWERS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Perhaps to avoid confusion (as with the LA+E6 discussion) we should agree on and link to a specific set of E6 rules for this challenge? I've found more than one.
    The rules are as normal E6 (link in first post) plus the contest rules found in the first post. If something in the contest rules conflicts with normal E6, follow the contest rules. Specific trumps general, and this specific contest';s rules trump the general E6 rules in any case where the two differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?
    It is probably against the spirit of E6 to count on having an artefact, but I'll allow it.

    The closest parallel with a price is a continuous-use wondrous item with CL20. Looking at wondrous items that meet that description, the cheapest are about 76,000 gp. Multiply by 20 and you get a 1.52 million gp pricetag. So, if two of your four characters spend all of their WBL on the minor artefact, they could have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    I don't think this challenge is really fair. The challenge is "Kill a Balor in E6" but then the rules get modified so LA isn't used (even though it seems well within the intent to use LA),
    I tell you what Miski, if it's that big of a deal then go ahead and use up to +4 LA/RHD as per normal E6 rules. However you must dedicate 6 of the 35 bonus feats. You'll be using those on Ability Training for 3 statts and Ability Advancement for 3 stats to offset your lower point buy.

    Also if your build wins you can expect some of the 200 words of praise to mock you for whining about the rules of a contest instead of trying to come up with a a clever entry that succeeds within the rules of the contest. But some of the 200 words will still be praise. Maybe even 100 or more!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Acula View Post
    This interests me, I am tempted to attempt to bulild a party, I have one question: Is dragon magazine allowed?
    No. All 3.5e D&D WotC-published books are allowed, nothing else.


    FINAL SUBMISSION LIST AT TIME OF JUDGING:
    *Starbuck II's Spellward Sniper + 3 Chumps
    awaiting team details

    *Lhurgyof's Humorously Named Four
    DEAD. Give details on equipment and tactics if this is a serious submission.

    *Dextercorvia's "Poor Man's Lucubration 9ths" plus "Krau Sigil Cleric/Wiz" plus two chumps
    Status: Pun-Pun's Ladder Good theoretical builds but definitely hits the ladder

    *aje8's Wraithstrike Nova plus 3 chumps
    Status: Pending; convince me you can survive several rounds and repeat your nova, plus survive the death throes.

    *Awa's Chump with Astral Bomb Skellies, plus three more chumps
    Points for Cleverness But the only member of your party still in combat with the Balor is a sad skeleton on the Astral Plane.

    Lhurgyof's Diplomancer plus three chumps
    Status: Pending; Show me a Diplomacy score of 58 will allow you to decisively defeat the Balor.

    *Crazedloon's "Krau Sigil 9ths" plus four chumps
    Ninja'd; and Ladder'd Again, brilliant theoretical build, but it's on Pun-Pun's ladder

    *Swordguy's Fight Smarter Not Harder (four chumps with a sphere of Gygax)
    Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan.

    *Aethernox's Four Go In, Three Come Out
    Status: Pending Looks like a complete plan

    *Awa's Revised Chumps with Skellies and Dust of Sneezing
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

    *Cespenar's Contract Killers (four Rog5/Assassin1's)
    Status: Pending; You're assuming you can get your Hide and Move Silently to +58. Show me the feats & gear. You also assume you can boost your Fort save DC high enough that he will reliably (i..e more than half the time) fail with his +22 modifier. Show me the feats & gear.

    *jseah's Abramelin and Three Chumps
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

    *Biffoniacus_Furious' "That's Not Tinkerbell!" plus three chumps
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

    *Tyndmyr's If You Like It Then You Shoulda Put an Orb on It
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

    *Gaurd_Juris' The Saintly Order of Who Took My Vorpal Sword?
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan.

    *Adumbration's Judge, Jury, and Executioner Plus One
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

    *Ingus' Bye-Bye Balor
    Status: DEAD; Brilliant use of items but your plan ends with banishing the Balor which was specified earlier as not counting as a victory.[/I]

    *The Shadowmind's Skeleton Crew
    Status: DEAD; Operating war machines requires a trained-only Profession (Siege Engineer) check as per the DMG, which default MM skeletons cannot make. You didn't offer a party to show how your necromancer could correct this. Basically 4 chumps walk proudly up to the Balor with 10,000 skeletons and 2500 siege weapons; two rounds later the Balor is on his cell phone asking his demon friends if they have any use for a skeleton army lead by 4 zombies with a look of shock and surprise frozen on their faces.

    *monkey3's I-Team and the Van
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

    *Lhurgyof's "It Worked for Arneson"
    Status: DEAD; I love this submission but sadly I think the Balor would have them all dead before realising how cool the game is. So really the Balor is the one who misses out, but still.

    *Eronai_Jantig's Fistful of Rays
    Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan

    *JeminiZero's "Guardian of Wings"
    Status: Pending; Looks like a complete plan

    *dextercorvia's The Naenhoon Effect
    Status: Pending; looks like a complete plan
    Last edited by Another_Poet; 2010-12-29 at 01:06 AM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Initial thoughts: They would all want to be evil to avoid auto dying from blaspemy, and with 35 extra feats, they could just take roll with it until they have such a high DR that not even a crit will damage them. But even then, killing it will take so long the balor would easily be able to dominate each party member before then, or just teleport away.
    Without breaking out at least some TO, I'm stumped.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-07-20 at 09:49 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    In theory, couldn't a Stunlock team (consisting) of a Spell-warped Sniper work?
    Balors aren't immune to stun. They can make the spell have no save (the spell I'm referring to is Sand Blast).
    The chance of hitting his touch AC isn't farfetched.

    It has horriblely crappy range (15) and SR is an issue, but assuming you preparing only it or lots of spell slot orbs (pearls of power) you could keep doing it every round in hopes rest of party kills it.
    One would hope a persistedly stunned target could be killed even by 6th lv characters.

    Granted, that would be theory.

    I'd assume the Sniper'd need some SR bypassing stuff (or just that array Resistance spell/Truecasting)

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    In theory, couldn't a Stunlock team (consisting) of a Spell-warped Sniper work?
    Balors aren't immune to stun. They can make the spell have save (the spell I'm referring to is Sand Blast).
    The chance of hitting his touch AC isn't farfetched.

    It has horriblely crappy range (15) and SR is an issue, but assuming you preparing only it or lots of spell slot orbs (pearls of power) you could keep doing it every round in hopes rest of party kills it.
    One would hope a persistedly stunned target could be killed even by 6th lv characters.

    Granted, that would be theory.
    Can that be done by level 6?
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Yes, you need 3rd lv spells (doesn't require arcane which is good part).
    You need Sandblast (Druid 1st) so you need one of the clases:
    1) Spirit Shaman
    2) Archivist (assuming he chooses it)
    3) Druid

    Archivist 5/Spellward Sniper 1 is 6th lv.

    But I'm not sure what the other party members should do to kill the Balor. He has DR 15 meaning you'll need shocktrooper power attacking to hurt him or sneak attack as stunned denies dex to AC.

    Tomorrow I'll design this theoretical party.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Yes, you need 3rd lv spells (doesn't require arcane which is good part).
    You need Sandblast (Druid 1st) so you need one of the clases:
    1) Spirit Shaman
    2) Archivist (assuming he chooses it)
    3) Druid

    Archivist 5/Spellward Sniper 1 is 6th lv.

    But I'm not sure what the other party members should do to kill the Balor. He has DR 15 meaning you'll need shocktrooper power attacking to hurt him or sneak attack as stunned denies dex to AC.

    Tomorrow I'll design this theoretical party.
    You'll need to find +1d6 SA or SS as well. As for damage, swordsage with craven, shadowblade, deadly defence and assassin's stance do 2d6+3d6+1.5 strength modifier, + dex + 6 damage per hit.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Right, you'd need Assassin's Stance which is our 6th lv feat.
    Do feats come before you choose classes?

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Right, you'd need Assassin's Stance which is our 6th lv feat.
    Do feats come before you choose classes?
    I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.
    Yes there is RAW on that, actually. PHB page 58. Choose class is the very first step of leveling up, so all prerequisites for a class choice must be satisfied by the previous level.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    do you need to kill it or survive killing it because that explosion at the end will fry you if you don't have fire immunity

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Ah, poo. I'd love to be a diety. D:
    Wazard: Lars Utguard; Human Wizard 6. He would prepare a lot of Touch of Idiocy's and such.
    Priest: Marley, Man; Elven Druid 6. He likes wildshape and has a puma companion. Oh, and a magic yo-yo, man.
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    Not again...

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.
    Can we buy it?
    Notice Shadow Hands add one maneuver from the Shadow Hand school up to 3rd. Stances are maneuvers for certaining things like prereqs.

    It grants it as long as you wear them.
    But maybe you are right, it probably refers to actual maneuvers not stances.

    Wait, since ECL is used for E6, can you use Bloodlines for 2 extra levels (that grant nothing)?
    Bloodlines would increase the Martial adept level for determining max maneuver learnable.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Yes there is RAW on that, actually. PHB page 58. Choose class is the very first step of leveling up, so all prerequisites for a class choice must be satisfied by the previous level.
    I am pretty sure that has been contradicted by PrC builds since then, but thanks for pointing that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Can we buy it?
    Notice Shadow Hands add one maneuver from the Shadow Hand school up to 3rd. Stances are maneuvers for certaining things like prereqs.

    It grants it as long as you wear them.
    But maybe you are right, it probably refers to actual maneuvers not stances.
    I'm not talking about maneuvers, but initiator level. Your build would only have one of 3, and you need 5 for assassin's stance.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-07-20 at 10:13 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    This Arcane Caster is (I believe) E6 legal. He can do it. He has unlimited 9th level spell slots, and knows every spell on the beguiler list. Use WBL to learn some other Wizard spells (worth it even at 20x), and he'll be set.

    For the roll of Healbot/Buffer, I believe I will choose a Wizard 5/Cleric1 (domains planning and undeath) with the following feats:

    Flaw:Heighten Spell
    Flaw:Earth Sense
    1:Earth Spell
    3:Improved Krau Sigil
    Wiz5(bonus):Sanctum Spell
    Cleric(bonus):Extra Turning
    Cleric(bonus):Extend Spell
    6:Extra Slot (gaining a 5th level slot)
    E1:Extra Slot(gaining a 7th level slot)
    E2:Extra Slot(gaining a 9th level slot)You can now cast 7th level spells.
    E3:Arcane Disciple(Luck)
    E4:Extra Spell(Miracle)
    E5:Persist Spell
    E6:DMM(Persist)
    ....Extra Slot(11th level slot) to taste

    I'm not really good at building melee/rogue types, so I'll leave that to someone else.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Question: Is it considered defeating the Balor if I can only kill him if my attack roll doesn't roll a 1? I don't know how to get around rolling a one in only 6 levels.

    Also, is it possible for me to ambush this Balor and then gain a surprise round? Or do I need to pump my Initiative Modifier to +32 to win initiative even if he gets a natural 20 to my natural 1 on Initiative?(assuming the Balor can stop me given a round)

    If it wasn't obvious, I'm envisioning a build that will kill the Balor in one momentous hit.

    I'm thinking the 2nd level spell (Wraithstrike I think) to make my attack a touch attack. +15 to hit isn't hard even at level 6. Go first, and then deal 361 (A Balor's maximum hit points) or more damage in single attack. Seems possible, if difficult. I thought this could be done with Factotum working with only one other party member.... until I reread the restriction on Font of Inspiration.
    Last edited by aje8; 2010-07-20 at 10:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    okay here my plan not sure if its what you want but take a bag of holding and a portable hole throw the portal within 10 feet of the balor then throw the bag inside it.

    every one evil to avoid blasphemy
    use leadership if allowed and improved familiars with hands spread out as much as possible and hope 2 people live long enough to throw the items.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I do not think there is any RAW on that and people generally choose with ever order they want, but an arcivist does not have the IL for assassin's stance.
    Archivist can however cast Hunter's Eye. That should get him his SA for qualification.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    all the evil characters should wear good aligned holy symbols in the hope of tricking it into wasting its first turn with a blasphemy
    Last edited by awa; 2010-07-20 at 10:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Really, someone with diplomacy pumped up the ass can beat the balor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    Not again...

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Tomorrow I'll design this theoretical party.
    Watch out, Starbuck is on the job. This guy can shoot down like 50 Cylon ships and make a damn fine latte at the same time.


    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    This Arcane Caster is (I believe) E6 legal.
    Nope. Mage's Lucubration is 6th level so it is neither available as a scroll nor in a spellbook.

    Assuming you can get around that, can you explain to me how the guy can "technically and actually" cast 4th level spells in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by aje8 View Post
    Question: Is it considered defeating the Balor if I can only kill him if my attack roll doesn't roll a 1? I don't know how to get around rolling a one in only 6 levels.
    Sure. The dice go against everyone sometimes. A 30th level party can lost to a Balor with enough bad rolls. But an e6 party with a strong chance of victory is something to behold.

    Of course if your plan is to hit it with a one-shot nova and rolling a 1 on that oneattack roll means you lose, I don't think you have a "strong chance."

    Also, is it possible for me to ambush this Balor and then gain a surprise round? Or do I need to pump my Initiative Modifier to +32 to win initiative even if he gets a natural 20 to my natural 1 on Initiative?(assuming the Balor can stop me given a round)
    I'd like to see a plan to survive round 1 in case you lose initiative. But if you can show me that there is absolutely, positively no way the Balor could detect you before you strike... kudos.

    If it wasn't obvious, I'm envisioning a build that will kill the Balor in one momentous hit. I'm thinking the 2nd level spell (Wraithstrike I think)....
    I would need to see that you can do this multiple times in case your initial nova fails and a plan to survive long enough to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    okay here my plan not sure if its what you want but take a bag of holding and a portable hole throw the portal within 10 feet of the balor then throw the bag inside it.
    Points for trying but there is no guarantee this will help. The wording on the interaction of these pocket spaces is vague enough that it is basically DM's call what happens. If your plan is to ask the DM to rule that the Balor dies then your plan is lacking a certain.... planniness.

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    all the evil characters should wear good aligned holy symbols in the hope of tricking it into wasting its first turn with a blasphemy
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    Last edited by Another_Poet; 2010-07-20 at 10:36 PM.
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    As the instigator of this challenge, I will challenge anyone who the OP considers successful to play against a Balor encounter.

    But that said, as far as beating the Balor, my opinions are:

    1) You have to be able to plausibly beat it's Spot and Listen checks of +38 to get surprise rounds, also remember the True Seeing.

    2) While Blasphemy is a big deal, let's not forget the other things it can do, for starters, DC 26 Firestorm CL 20. So if you can't survive about 70 damage, or 35 and show us an impressive ref save (or have improved evasion, or have evasions and ref save) you should probably work on that too.

    3) As for declaring victory, if you can run three consecutive fights against the Balor encounter, and win 2 of them, you are my hero and have won the challenge as far as I am concerned.

    4) Anything casting like 5th level spells or higher is probably more cheesy than I care about, because I'm pretty sure the point of e6 is to limit PCs, and so any cheese that straight up exceeds the limits intended probably wouldn't be allowed by any DM that actually choose to play e6.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Does victory entail surviving the death throes of the Balor? Because otherwise you'll need about 30 Toughness feats apiece.
    Avatar some unholy combination of Winthur and Gato Muerto's ideas.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    I welcome Malakar to the thread, and promise not to certify a winner unless I really believe it has a shot of beating his Balor fight 2 out of 3 times.

    I can't require the winner to fight him but would urge them to do so to entertain us all and prove their God of Heroes status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Does victory entail surviving the death throes of the Balor?
    YUP!
    Last edited by Another_Poet; 2010-07-20 at 10:39 PM.
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

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    Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar View Post
    2) While Blasphemy is a big deal, let's not forget the other things it can do, for starters, DC 26 Firestorm CL 20. So if you can't survive about 70 damage, or 35 and show us an impressive ref save (or have improved evasion, or have evasions and ref save) you should probably work on that too.
    That is a problem. Fire substype would probably be the only way to surivive that. Is LA allowed? What about fire souled: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD...-Templates.pdf (page 55)
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-07-20 at 10:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Does victory entail surviving the death throes of the Balor? Because otherwise you'll need about 30 Toughness feats apiece.
    As long as not a total TPK, I assume we win. Blink would protect versus Death throws because it is an area attack

    If Death throws is an area attack then you take 1/2 damage. If you succeed on the save that is only 25 damage.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    That is a problem. Fire substype would probably be the only way to surivive that. Is LA allowed? What about fire souled: http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD...-Templates.pdf (page 55)
    You should be aware that Firesouled is in fact a +3 not +1 LA, and that Crystal Keep is just wrong there.

    But other than that, using LA is fine, though it does count against the six part of your e6.

    EDIT: Death throes is area, so you can also have Evasion, and just ignore the whole thing.

    And indeed, for my considerations of winning, a dead Balor and one living member of the party of four is acceptable.
    Last edited by Malakar; 2010-07-20 at 10:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    modification to my plan skeletons suicide bombers wearing bags of holding and they stick portable holes in them when within 10 feet of the balor

    "If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process"

    skeletons should be dressed in full body concealing robes to hide their undead nature

    the balor does not have an easy way out of the astral plane the rules unlike those for the rope trick are not particularly vague and their is no save.

    evil people only to protect you from blasphemy. Have high dex, improved initiative. protection from energy fire on are suicide bombers keep every one as far away from each other as possible.

    If you survive long enough to act send in one skeleton in with out bags to take the attack of opportunity
    Last edited by awa; 2010-07-20 at 10:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar View Post
    You should be aware that Firesouled is in fact a +3 not +1 LA, and that Crystal Keep is just wrong there.

    But other than that, using LA is fine, though it does count against the six part of your e6.

    EDIT: Death throes is area, so you can also have Evasion, and just ignore the whole thing.

    And indeed, for my considerations of winning, a dead Balor and one living member of the party of four is acceptable.
    If I read it right, LA actually affects your PB in E6, not your level. You're kind of modifying the rules to make it harder for the party.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-07-20 at 10:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    Nope. Mage's Lucubration is 6th level so it is neither available as a scroll nor in a spellbook.

    Assuming you can get around that, can you explain to me how the guy can "technically and actually" cast 4th level spells in the first place?
    A Beguiler1/Wizard5 with versatile spellcaster can sack two third level slots to cast any spell he knows of 4th level, so he has the technical ability to cast 4th level Wizard spells, and therefore can choose to learn one when he levels. Also, he can actually cast them off of the Beguiler list. Versatile spellcaster is worded really poorly, but these are RAW uses.

    Re:Mage's Lucubration, good catch, but buying the Mage's Lucubration was just a cleaner way of doing it. He can technically cast 6th* level spells at this level (ECL6), so he can learn Mnemonic Enhancer, and Mage's Lucubration for leveling, and then buy scrolls of Haste and Phantom Steed instead.

    *After learning Mnemonic Enhancer, and before choosing his second spell, he begins the process, only choosing his second spell, when he gets to the point that he needs it.

    Is there a problem with the Divine build?

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    Default Re: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

    I feel that this wouldn't be that hard, honestly. I just have to hope that I beat someone else to the builds.

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