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    Default [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Disclaimer: I've grown increasingly dissatisfied with all of the Heroic classes. Use them if you wish but I think they all need to be taken back to formula.



    Rogue



    Note: This class revision is intended for balance within D&D Heroic Edition but it is hoped that it will be playable in regular D&D.

    The rogue is skilled in deceit, whether in combat, theft, or in lies. She attacks when her enemies are at their weakest and fades away into the shadows. As a nimble warrior she does not stand on the front line but attacks from her enemies flanks, striking from hiding and evading blows and magical effects. The rogue lives by the motto "You can't hit what you don't know is there."

    Changes to the Rogue.

    All of the rogues standard abilities remain unchanged. In addition she gains a number of unqiue special abilities that may be selected at lower levels, and more options are added to her higher level special abilities.

    Sneak attack is changed to deal half damage to creatures that are immune to sneak attack. This is generally considered to be a good change that Pathfinder made and I'm inclined to agree. It lets the rogue still do something against enemies that she otherwise be totally boned against.

    Alignment: any.
    HD: standard
    BAB: standard
    Skills: all classes receive an additional 2 skill points per level.
    Saves: standard
    Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: standard

    Level Special Ability
    1 Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, weapon finesse, Adept ability
    2 Evasion, Adept ability, Skilled
    3 Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1,
    4 Uncanny dodge, Adept ability
    5 Sneak attack +3d6, Skilled 2/encounter
    6 Trap sense +2, Adept ability
    7 Sneak attack +4d6
    8 Improved uncanny dodge, Adept ability
    9 Sneak attack +5d6, trap sense +3
    10 Master ability, Skilled 3/encounter
    11 Sneak attack +6d6
    12 Trap sense +4, Master ability
    13 Sneak attack +7d6
    14 Master ability
    15 Sneak attack +8d6, trap sense +5, Skilled 4/encounter
    16 Master ability
    17 Sneak attack +9d6
    18 Trap sense +6, Master ability
    19 Sneak attack +10d6
    20 Master ability, Skilled Mastery


    Weapon Finesse (Ex): At 1st level the rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, ignoring the +1 BAB requirement.

    Sneak Attack (Ex): If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

    The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

    With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

    A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

    Creatures that are immune to sneak attack take half damage from the rogues sneak attack instead of no damage.

    Trapfinding (Ex): Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

    Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Skilled (Ex): The rogue excels at learning useful tricks and ploys to confuse and confound her opponents. At 2nd level and every 2 rogue levels later the rogue gains 2 skill points that may only be used to purchase a skill trick.

    At higher levels her use of these tricks improves. At 5th level she is able to use any trick she knows 2/encounter. At 10th level this improves to 3/encounter, at 15th level it increases to 4/encounter and at 20th level the rogue gains Skilled Mastery and may use any skill trick she knows an unlimited number of times per encounter.


    Note: If the DM is not using Skill Tricks then use the following ability instead.

    Skilled (Ex): The rogue excels at a wide mastery of skills, acquiring competency faster and easier than other characters. At 2nd level and every 2 rogue levels later the rogue may add a permanent +2 luck bonus to a single skill.

    At higher levels her use of skills improves. At 5th level she may choose to re-roll a skill check 2/encounter. This is a free action and may be done when it is not the rogues turn, any number of times per round up to the maximum number of re-rolls per encounter the rogue may use. At 10th level this improves to 3/encounter, at 15th level it increases to 4/encounter and at 20th level the rogue gains Skilled Mastery and may once per round add a +10 bonus to a single skill check.

    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

    Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

    If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

    This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

    If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    Adept ability: At 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, & 8th level a rogue may choose a special ability from the list below. Each ability may only be chosen once with the exception of the bonus feat ability which may be chosen any number of times.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Bonus Feat (Ex): The rogue may choose any feat for which she meets the prerequisites.

    Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor, a rogue adds her Intelligence modifier to her Armor Class. If a rogue is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

    Dodge (Ex): The rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against a single opponent, as per the Dodge feat. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 rogue levels to a maximum +6 at 20th level. This ability counts as the Dodge feat for any other ability that requires the feat.

    Camouflage (Ex): The can use her Hide skill without needing cover or concealment.

    Deadeye (Ex): The rogue adds her Dexterity modifier to her damage rolls when making a ranged attack with a weapon.

    Insightful Strike (Ex): As the Swashbuckler ability.

    Improved Feint (Ex): As the feat, but the rogue is not required to have Combat Expertise.

    Flanking Expert (Ex): When flanking an opponent the rogue receives a +4 bonus on attack rolls (instead of +2) and a +2 bonus on damage rolls.

    Light Step (Ex): The rogue may move through difficult terrain at her normal speed.

    Silent Running (Ex): The rogue takes no penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks for moving her normal speed, and may run while Hiding and Moving Silently at no penalty.

    Superior Initiative (Ex): The rogue adds her Intelligence modifier to her Initiative checks. In addition she may re-roll one Initiative check per day, taking her choice of rolls.



    Master abilities: At 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, & 20th level the rogue may choose a special ability from the list below. Each ability may only be chosen once. If she chooses the rogue may take a special ability from the Adept list instead of a Master ability.

    Spoiler
    Show

    All of the special abilities from the standard Rogue are available in addition to the abilites below.

    A Thousand Faces (Su): As the druid's ability.

    Death Attack (Ex): As the assassin's ability. The saving throw's DC is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + Int modifier.

    Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): The rogue gains the ability to use the Hide skill even while being observed. Requires Camouflage.

    Hide with No Thought (Ex): When combat begins the rogue gains a free surprise round before any other actions are taken. The only action she may take during this surprise round is to move half her speed and hide. If the rogue is the creature initiating combat she does not gain this ability but is instead able to act in her surprise round as normal. Requires Superior Initiative, Camouflage, and Hide in Plain Sight.

    Uncanny Feint (Ex): The rogue may make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.

    Wounding Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows cut vital arteries and cause extreme damage to the opponents body. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Constitution damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.


    Epic Progression
    Spoiler
    Show

    Epic Heroic Rogue

    Hit Die: d6
    Skill points at Each Additional Level
    10 + Int modifier

    Epic Heroic Rogue
    {table=head]Rogue Level|Special
    21st|Sneak Attack +11d6
    22nd|Epic Heroism
    23rd|Sneak Attack +12d6
    24th|Epic Heroism
    25th|Sneak Attack +13d6
    26th|Epic Heroism
    27th|Sneak Attack +14d6
    28th|Epic Heroism
    29th|Sneak Attack +15d6
    30th|Epic Heroism, Final Death[/table]

    Sneak Attack: At every odd level the rogue's sneak attack increases by +1d6.

    Epic Heroism: At 22nd, 24th, 26th, 28th, & 30th level the rogue may choose a special ability from the list below. Each ability may be chosen once. If she chooses the rogue may instead take a special ability from Adept or Master list, or an Epic bonus feat.
    Daredevil: The rogue gains a +30 bonus to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Swim, & Tumble checks. She is not considered flat-footed while balancing or climbing and she doesn't take the -5 penalty for accelerated movement while balancing or climbing. In addition she is always considered to have a 20ft running start for jump checks.

    Empty Mind: If a rogue is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can suppress the spell or effect until the end of her next turn, when she makes her second saving throw at the same DC. If she fails this second saving throw she is affected by the spell or effect as normal. Requires: Slippery Mind

    Fast Reflexes: Once per round when struck by an attack from an opponent the rogue may automatically avoid all damage from the attack. Requires: Defensive Roll

    Master Thief: The rogue gains a +30 bonus to Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, and Spot.

    Skill Supremacy: The rogue may Take 10 on any skill that she possesses at least 24 ranks in. Requires: Skill Mastery

    Specialist Training: The rogue gains a +30 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. In addition the rogue does not take the -10 penalty for a rushed diplomacy check.

    Trap Expert: When a trap is sprung you can make one Disable Device check as an free action. If the check succeeds you quickly disable the trap and avoid its effects. If the check fails the trap activates as normal. In addition the rogue can use greater dispel magic as an at-will spell-like ability to disable traps with a caster level bonus equal to her rogue level. She may only use the targeted version of greater dispel magic and she may only use it to disable magic traps.

    Uncanny Strike: Once per round the rogue may declare an attack she makes to be a Sneak Attack, regardless of whether her foe is denied its dexterity bonus or not.
    Final Death: Creatures that the rogue kills with a sneak attack are completely destroyed, their soul pierced and ruined. They may not be resurrected or brought back to life by any means except through direct divine intervention.
    Last edited by Chambers; 2014-06-14 at 01:48 PM. Reason: Fixed the table code.
    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
    "We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"

  2. - Top - End - #2

    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    So it's like PF rogue+, looks nice, but needs more master abilities. Or I would just like some. I still get the feeling that it could use just that little bit more, but very good anyway.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    So it's like PF rogue+, looks nice, but needs more master abilities. Or I would just like some. I still get the feeling that it could use just that little bit more, but very good anyway.
    Thanks! More master abilities are easy to add. I didn't want to add too many initially because of concern of overloading the class.

    The reason I chose the Death Attack & HiPS for master abilities is that HiPS is definitely one of the most useful abilities for a rogue and rogues that want it either have to PrC out or take a template. My idea for each class is that you don't need to Prestige Class out of it to make the class effective. By giving the rogue HiPS there is less reason to take the Assassin PrC, so I added Death Attack, which is still in flavor and concept with the rogue.

    If you want to offer a suggestion for a master ability I'd look at rogue themed prestige classes and post ideas based on abilities found there.
    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
    "We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    -Death Attack DC is pretty outrageous. Needs to be half Rogue level
    -Flanking Expert states you get a +4 attack and +2 attack. I assume that's supposed to be +4 attack (while flanking, of course) and +2 damage.

    This is kinda like a gestalt Rogue//Feat Rogue if you trade in all Adept abilities for them. Well, it would be if you put in the caveat that you can select an Adept ability with your Master Ability slots. Not necessarily a bad thing, just an interesting commentary (to myself).

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    -Death Attack DC is pretty outrageous. Needs to be half Rogue level
    -Flanking Expert states you get a +4 attack and +2 attack. I assume that's supposed to be +4 attack (while flanking, of course) and +2 damage.

    This is kinda like a gestalt Rogue//Feat Rogue if you trade in all Adept abilities for them. Well, it would be if you put in the caveat that you can select an Adept ability with your Master Ability slots. Not necessarily a bad thing, just an interesting commentary (to myself).
    Fixed the Flanking Expert. Nice Spot check!

    Death Attack...

    One of the problems of the Assassin's Death Attack was it taking three rounds and it's low DC. I didn't want to drop the three round requirement so I upped the DC.

    Let's run some numbers.

    10th level rogue, 20 Intelligence. Death Attack DC 25

    A class with favored Fortitude has a +7 base. Figure in a modest +2 Con modifier for +9. There are a number of abilities in the revised classes that grant a bonus to saves. At 10th level the bonus would be +3, so the Fort save total would be +12.

    So the above character would save on a 13 or better.

    If the save DC was 1/2 Rogue level the DC would be 20, and the character would save on a 7 or better.

    ---

    So it looks like full level to the DC is too powerful, while half level to the DC would be okay. Especially considering that there aren't common magic items that grant resistance bonuses to saving throws.
    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Ah, it's missing a way to get 1/2 sneak attack on undead/other. I recommend adding an Adept ability or just changing sneak attack.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Ah, it's missing a way to get 1/2 sneak attack on undead/other. I recommend adding an Adept ability or just changing sneak attack.
    The capstone ability lets the Rogue sneak attack anything once per round, but an ability such as you suggest might make a good Master ability.

    ---
    Master ability.
    Piercing Strike (Ex): When the rogue makes a sneak attack against a creature that is immune to her sneak attack damage, she instead deals half of her sneak attack damage to the creature.
    Last edited by Chambers; 2010-07-23 at 03:11 PM.
    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Considering it's still an at-will (if conditional) Death Attack, it's ok for its DC to be a bit lacking. There's always Ability Focus for a virtual +4 Rogue levels (assuming half rogue level). You could perhaps put in a condition for gaining an extra +1 DC per additional round studied up to a maximum (either half Rogue level to bring up to full rogue level total or simply up to INT bonus). But even that is quite dangerous -- any situation where an Assassin can study for 3 rounds, he can probably study for NI rounds.

    Definitely agree with Tinydwarfman -- addressing Sneak Attack immunity would be great.

    EDIT: I see you are, now. Waiting 'til the capstone is a preeetty long wait. I might suggest, in addition to your Master ability with half-SA against anything normally immune (about half the monster manual, btw), Adept abilities that allow you to add full SA but only against a chosen family. So you can use Adept abilities at lower levels in an undead-heavy campaign, or wait 'til Master abilities to grab the catch-all.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-07-23 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Eh, not really, Pathfinder just made all sneak attacks do 1/2 on anything normally removed. Pretty much everyone I've talked to agrees this was a good change, and was definitely not overpowering. I would actually change the capstone, depending on how common magic items are in your world. (in normal high level games, it wouldn't really matter because any self-respecting rogue has either blinking or has some other way of consistently sneak-attacking.)

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Eh, not really, Pathfinder just made all sneak attacks do 1/2 on anything normally removed. Pretty much everyone I've talked to agrees this was a good change, and was definitely not overpowering. I would actually change the capstone, depending on how common magic items are in your world. (in normal high level games, it wouldn't really matter because any self-respecting rogue has either blinking or has some other way of consistently sneak-attacking.)
    I could go with that. To recap: Sneak Attack deals 1/2 damage against anything immune to sneak attack.

    Need a capstone ability then.
    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
    "We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    In a low magic world like yours, the capstone works fine. Personally I would make the capstone something distinctly skill-monkeyish, since you have no factotum. I would say to remove the 1/ encounter limit on skill tricks, let the rogue "Take 15" a certain number of times per day (probably a lot), maybe other stuff. That's just my personaly preference though. If you bring back the Factotum, I would specialize the rogue as more of a glass cannon type, but either is fine.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Personally I wouldn't give an adept ability at first level, but that's just me. It's not really a big deal either way.

    Additionally I would make Hide In Plain Sight available as an adept ability with just the prereqs Hide 8 and Move Silently 8.

    Here are some more abilities that might interest people:

    Adept:
    Spell Reflection (Complete Mage)
    Acrobatic Charge (Swashbuckler)
    Magical Knack: Use any one 0-level arcane spell as an at-will spell-like ability.
    Superior Initiative: Always roll two dice and take the better result when rolling for Initiative. (Alternatively just add INT to Initiative)
    Uncanny Luck [Prereq: Any one Luck Feat]: Add your CHA modifier to any Luck reroll.

    Master:
    Uncanny Feint: Feint in combat as a swift action
    Combat Speed: Move your speed as a swift action Dex times per day
    Ambush Tactics: Always act during a surprise round and take a full round action during surprise rounds.
    Uncanny Sniper: There is no maximum range on your Sneak Attacks.
    Lucky Bastard [Prereq: Any one Luck Feat]: Gain additional Luck Rerolls equal to your CHA.
    A Thousand Faces [Prereq: Disguise 13]

    Alternative Capstones:
    Deadly Strike (Ex): At 20th level a rogue has become so adept at sneak attacks that she may maximize one sneak attack per round.
    Deadly Precision (Ex): At 20th level a rogue has become so adept at sneak attacks that she scores a critical hit she may multiply her sneak attack dice by her critical multiplier once per round.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    cooperflood Thanks for the ideas. Here are the ones I think would fit.

    Acrobatic Charge (already there. The Light Step ability to move through difficult terrain also allows the rogue to charge over difficult terrain.)

    Adept

    Superior Initiative: Int modifier to Initiative. Once per day re-roll Initiative, taking choice of rolls.

    Master

    Uncanny Feint: Good. Requires Improved Feint, which is added as an Adept ability.

    Hide with No Thought (Ex): When combat begins the rogue gains a free surprise round before any other actions are taken. The only action she may take during this surprise round is to move half her speed and hide. If the rogue is the creature initiating combat she does not gain this ability but is instead able to act in her surprise round as normal. Requires Superior Initiative, Camouflage, and Hide in Plain Sight.

    A Thousand Faces: Good, but no Disguise requirement.


    Tinydwarfman I like the idea of the skill based capstone. Not sure what though.
    Last edited by Chambers; 2010-07-23 at 06:26 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Tinydwarfman

    New base ability & Capstone.

    Skilled (Ex): The rogue excels at learning useful tricks and ploys to confuse and confound her opponents. At 1st level and every 2 rogue levels later the rogue gains 2 skill points that may only be used to purchase a skill trick.

    At higher levels her use of these tricks improves. At 5th level she is able to use any trick she knows 2/encounter. At 10th level this improves to 3/encounter, at 15th level it increases to 4/encounter and at 20th level the rogue gains Skilled Mastery and may use any skill trick she knows an unlimited number of times per encounter.

    Note: If the DM is not using Skill Tricks then use the following ability instead.

    Skilled (Ex): The rogue excels at a wide mastery of skills, acquiring competency faster and easier than other characters. At 1st level and every 2 rogue levels later the rogue may add a permanent +2 luck bonus to a single skill.

    At higher levels her use of skills improves. At 5th level she may choose to re-roll a skill check 2/encounter. This is a free action and may be done when it is not the rogues turn, any number of times per round up to the maximum number of re-rolls per encounter the rogue may use. At 10th level this improves to 3/encounter, at 15th level it increases to 4/encounter and at 20th level the rogue gains Skilled Mastery and may once per round add a +10 bonus to a single skill check.
    Last edited by Chambers; 2010-07-24 at 02:22 AM.
    The Great Wave off Kanagawa by Hokusai Me.
    "We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"

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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    You may want to move the first instance of Skilled to second level, because there are no skill tricks that can be selected by a first level character.
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    Default Re: [3.5/Heroic]Rogue Revision

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadora View Post
    You may want to move the first instance of Skilled to second level, because there are no skill tricks that can be selected by a first level character.
    Ah. Good point. Thanks.
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