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    Default Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    I think you should be able to use Eldritch Blast with metamagic.

    There were two ways I'd consider doing this:

    Method One:
    Reduce the number of damage die dealt by your Eldritch Blast by the total number of spell levels the metamagic feats would normally raise a spell's level by. In addition, reduce the DC of any saving throws by this amount.
    (this loss of damage die is calculated before the effects of the metamagic feats.)
    If this would result in less than one die of damage, the feats may not be applied.

    Method Two:
    Treat your Warlock level as a number of levels lower equal to the total number of spell levels the metamagic feats would normally raise a spell's level by. Use this modified level to calculate Save DCs and eldritch blast damage.

    The former method is closer to how spells work, but results in much weaker Eldritch blasts.

    The latter SEEMS to work. My only worry is that you could use powerful metamagic at too early a level.

    For either method, as a spontaneous 'caster', applying metamagic changes the EB to a full round action (unless its Quicken)

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    20th level Warlock.
    Use a Hellrime blast to deal cold damage (plus Fort vs Dex loss)
    Energy Admixture to add Electricity. (-4 effective levels. 7d6 damage base.)
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    3.5d6 cold + 3.5d6 negative + 3.5d6 electric + 3.5d6 sonic (Fort save or Dex reduced by two, Fort save or stunned, reflex save or prone, all DC 18+Cha mod)


    Any comments? Is this balanced? Method one or method two?
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2010-07-29 at 06:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    ...what happened to the spell-like ability metamagics? Or are you talking about ones that hadn't been adapted for SLAs?

    No knowledge of the class so I can't really say much. Sorry.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    I'd say borrow from metabreath feats. Delay your next blast by X rounds to use Y metablast feat.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Me likey option #1.

    However, to really get a good feel for the impact, you'll want to go down the list of metamagic feats and ask yourself, "how could I break the game with this" for each one. You've mentioned that you don't have many books, so may I recommend Crystalkeep?

    Also, consider how you'll rule for the various feats and class features that reduce the cost of metamagic for spells.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    You already can use limited amounts of metamagic with Eldritch Blast -- all of the Sudden Metamagic feats work, and so do Metamagic Spell-Like Ability.

    If your DM's cool with you making up new versions of those feats, you should be good to go. The downside would be being limited to a set number of UPD.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-07-30 at 05:15 AM. Reason: I absolutely, categorically, did not say "you're DM"
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Method one has problems. Say, you have empower spell and your EB would deal 6d6 damage. It now deals 4d6+50%, which is pretty much the same as 6d6. No real effect. But, say you EB deals 8d6, and you use the same. You upped one damage die (6d6+50%=9d6) so there is no reason NOT to use it.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Yes... I think I'd suggest just giving the character limited uses, or "you have seven uses of metamagic per day".
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    Method one has problems. Say, you have empower spell and your EB would deal 6d6 damage. It now deals 4d6+50%, which is pretty much the same as 6d6. No real effect. But, say you EB deals 8d6, and you use the same. You upped one damage die (6d6+50%=9d6) so there is no reason NOT to use it.
    Is a feat which increases your EB damage by 1d6, but only at high levels, really that overpowered?
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-07-30 at 06:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Is a feat which increases your EB damage by 1d6, but only at high levels, really that overpowered?
    Not at all. But the effect is rather weird and I think it's just not good when in causes such a disconnect. At low levels, it penalizes, later, it does nothing. Then it gives you a +1d6. Wot.
    Edit: Instead of this. I could get behind.

    Powerful Blast
    Your eldritch blast deals more damage than usual
    Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast +2d6
    Benefit: Your eldritch blast deals +1d6 more damage. This extra damage does not count for the purpose of prerequisites

    Improved Powerful Blast
    Moar Damage.
    Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast +5d6
    Benefit: Your eldritch blast deals +2d6 more damage. This extra damage does not count for the purpose of prerequisites. Stacks with Powerful Blast.

    I'd like this more than Empower Spell weirdness.
    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2010-07-30 at 06:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    You could always reduce the level penalties by 1 (ie. -1d6 for Empower).

    Metapsionics have lower costs than metamagics since you need to expend your focus when you use them (every 2 power points effectively increases the power by 1 level).
    Burrowing Power: +2
    Chain Power: +6
    Delay Power: +2
    Empower Power: +2
    Enlarge Power: +0
    Extend Power: +2
    Maximise Power: +4
    Opportunity Power: +6
    Quicken Power: +6
    Twin Power: +6
    Unconditional Power: +8
    Widen Power: +4

    For damaging psionic powers, each power point could normally be put into +1d6 damage and +0.5 DC.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-07-30 at 07:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Well, In order:
    I don't much like the Sudden Metamagics, nor the SLA metamagics. Only being able to do something a certain number of times in a day... eehhh.

    The metabreath feats idea makes sense, but how many rounds of inaction is a spell level worth? Hard to convert.

    I think the worst one I've found is Empower. With either method, that allows 12d6 at level 20.
    Intensify, an epic metamagic, allows 12 damage with method 1 and 72 with method 2.
    Quicken would allow you to do 14d6 or 16d6 (method 1 or 2) in a round.
    Quicken could be a problem. Maybe if you Quicken an eldritch blast, the lost damage die/levels apply to all EBs that round?

    As far as the thing with 'why not use empower?' goes, then it's exactly the same with psionics.

    Edit:
    Also, consider how you'll rule for the various feats and class features that reduce the cost of metamagic for spells.
    Easy. Treat it as one less level-to a minimum of one, same as normal.
    For example: Use Quicken. You have an ability that reduces metamagic costs by one.
    With method 1, you only reduce damage by 3d6. With method 2, you only reduce your effective level by 3.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2010-07-30 at 08:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    Not at all. But the effect is rather weird and I think it's just not good when in causes such a disconnect. At low levels, it penalizes, later, it does nothing. Then it gives you a +1d6.
    What's wrong with this? Spells work the same way. This is why no one uses empower on a ray of frost, people rarely use it on scorching ray, but everyone loves it on orb of fire.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    I'm pretty sure there are no spells that actually lose damage by empowering.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Another recommendation?

    Just take the meta-blank effects you want and make them Eldritch Essence/Shape invocations.

    Empower and Maximize would be rough to find a system to make them balanced while still worth using. Subtracting from blast damage to add blast damage is silly, and if it's not costing the warlock anything (as method 2) then there's no reason to ever NOT do these things.

    As invocations, suddenly there's a choice to be made. Empowering my blast is good, but will I do that over some other essence invocation? And is it worth it to me to spend an invocation on this?

    You could even make them "generic" invocations, so they can take up the slot of either an essence or a shape invocation, instead of one or the other.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    That's better, but then you can only get a total of four. Plus, you only get four invocations, you'll wanna put em on something else, no?

    I quite like the system I have now. I know that there's really no point in not Empowering something, but I don't really get why that's bad.
    A caveat on Method 2 that if you lose any levels, you always lose at least one damage die might be best...
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    I'm pretty sure there are no spells that actually lose damage by empowering.
    Correct. But there are certainly spell slots that lose damage by empowering. And it is spell slots that are expended, not spells. Let's say my best available slot is 2nd level. I can cast scorching ray, melf's acid arrow, or something similar from this slot (to choose spells that are similar to an eldritch blast). Or I can cast an empowered cantrip. Empowering a spell into that spell slot is very inefficient from a raw DPS perspective.

    OTOH, say I have a 4th level slot available. I can cast enervation or orb of fire from this slot, or I can cast an empowered scorching ray. This example is less clear-cut, but in some scenarios, the empower is a good option and in some scenarios it is not.

    Suppose I have a 6th level slot available. I can cast freezing sphere or disintigrate in this slot, or I can cast an empowered enervation or empowered orb of fire. There are now many scenarios where I'd rather use the empowered spell, although in certain situations the reduced save DC might be unacceptable.

    Does that make sense?
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-30 at 06:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    The Eldritch Blast was changed in errata.
    Quote Originally Posted by Errata
    “An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130), your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape
    or essence.”
    This vastly improves the usefulness of spell-like-ability metamagic.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    That makes EB itself worse...
    I guess, but I'm not so fond of per-day limits.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    That makes EB itself worse...
    I guess, but I'm not so fond of per-day limits.
    How so? Glove of Invunerability becomes more of a problem but you can modify the level to get through by applying essences and blast shapes.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    It reduces save DCs, mostly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Does that make sense?
    Not really. You don't lose anything throwing an Eldritch Blast, so a method that has you always Empowering your EB at certain levels and never doing it other levels isn't nearly the same as comparing an empowered spell vs. a spell of the same level. With one, there's a choice, and with the other, it's either strictly better or strictly worse.

    That's better, but then you can only get a total of four. Plus, you only get four invocations, you'll wanna put em on something else, no?
    I'm confused. Warlocks get 12 invocations over 20 levels. Where is four coming from?

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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Actually, you DO lose something by meta-ing an EB. It becomes a Full Round Action.
    That's been up there since I first posted but I keep forgetting to say it...

    And whoah, so you do. I missed that. DXD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    The metabreath feats idea makes sense, but how many rounds of inaction is a spell level worth? Hard to convert.
    Simple the metabreath feats already mimic metamagic and valued it at 1 round/spell level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I think the worst one I've found is Empower. With either method, that allows 12d6 at level 20.
    Method one should only give you 7d6 x 1.5 or 10.5d6 not a full 12d6 as it lowers the number of dice by 2 and you only get 9d6 at Lv 20.

    As for the total just think Hellfire Warlock with a binder dib already deals 14d6 per round as a standard action. This only gets really problematic if combined with something like Hellfire Warlock.

    As for Quicken normally spontaneous casters can't use it so maybe you could go that route, or else the problem becomes not Quickened but Quickened Blast (5d6) followed by Empowered Blast (10.5d6).
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    It reduces save DCs, mostly.
    No it doesn't Eldritch Blast has no saving throw unless its modified by an essence. The essences have their own independent DC's.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Hm. That would make sense then, but to be honest, I like the system I have now.

    I beg your pardon, I thought Empower was one level. (Curtsey)

    I think it's silly to make Quicken not work for spontaneous casters. So, I think the idea I had earlier of saying 'If you apply metamagic to an eldritch blast, you must apply the same metamagic to all other eldritch blasts you fire before your next round. If you can't, such as with Quicken, you lose damage dice as if you had.'

    Yes, but if you lose a lower level Essence than your Eldritch Blast, you lose out.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Simply allow Rapid Metamagic to function for the Warlock? Quicken problem solved.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    TBH, if it were my game, I'd just say 'applying metamagic to a spontaneous caster's spell makes it a full round action-unless it's Quicken.'

    But otherwise, a sensible solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Niezck View Post
    Simply allow Rapid Metamagic to function for the Warlock? Quicken problem solved.
    100% Unnecessary for warlocks.

    How do you suppose the quicken spell-like ability feat works? How do you suppose a balor gets to quicken his telekinesis spell 3/day. Well it works because the increased casting time only applies to metamagic feats,

    Quicken Spell-Like ability is a [general] feat not a [metamagic feat]. The same is true for any xxx spell-like ability feat.

    A few things from the RAW and the FAQ
    Quote Originally Posted by Errata for Complete Arcane
    “An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130), your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape
    or essence.”
    And
    Quote Originally Posted by FAQ
    Can a warlock apply Empower Spell-Like Ability or
    Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Monster Manual, pages 303–
    304) to his eldritch blast? What level would he have to be to
    do so?

    Thanks to the official errata for Complete Arcane (which
    established that an eldritch blast is “the equivalent of a 1stlevel
    spell”), the answer to this question is yes.
    The chart on page 304 of the Monster Manual describes the
    caster level required to empower or quicken a spell-like ability.
    A warlock needs to have a caster level of 6th to empower his
    eldritch blast, or a caster level of 10th to quicken it.
    If the warlock applies an eldritch essence or blast shape
    invocation to his eldritch blast, the blast’s level equivalent (and
    thus the required caster level) increases. Empowering an
    eldritch cone (the equivalent of a 5th-level spell) requires the
    warlock to be 14th level, while quickening a frightful blast (the
    equivalent of a 2nd-level spell) requires a 12th-level warlock.
    Lix Lorn I don't see how your system is better then the current one, as it stands a Warlock gets to use xxx spell-like ability fairly effectively.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Because, as is, you can only do it a certain number of times a day.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic

    Not to mention the fact there're very, very few XXX SLA feats hanging around. Not nearly as many as there are metamagics.
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