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Thread: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
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2010-07-29, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Eldritch Blast Metamagic
I think you should be able to use Eldritch Blast with metamagic.
There were two ways I'd consider doing this:
Method One:
Reduce the number of damage die dealt by your Eldritch Blast by the total number of spell levels the metamagic feats would normally raise a spell's level by. In addition, reduce the DC of any saving throws by this amount.
(this loss of damage die is calculated before the effects of the metamagic feats.)
If this would result in less than one die of damage, the feats may not be applied.
Method Two:
Treat your Warlock level as a number of levels lower equal to the total number of spell levels the metamagic feats would normally raise a spell's level by. Use this modified level to calculate Save DCs and eldritch blast damage.
The former method is closer to how spells work, but results in much weaker Eldritch blasts.
The latter SEEMS to work. My only worry is that you could use powerful metamagic at too early a level.
For either method, as a spontaneous 'caster', applying metamagic changes the EB to a full round action (unless its Quicken)
My favourite potential Meta?
Spoiler20th level Warlock.
Use a Hellrime blast to deal cold damage (plus Fort vs Dex loss)
Energy Admixture to add Electricity. (-4 effective levels. 7d6 damage base.)
7d6 cold + 7d6 electric (Fort save DC 18+Cha mod, or Dex reduced by 2)
Born of the three thunders
7d6 cold +3.5d6 electric + 3.5d6 sonic (Fort save or Dex reduced by two, Fort save or stunned, reflex save or prone, all DC 18+Cha mod)
Lord of the uttercold
3.5d6 cold + 3.5d6 negative + 3.5d6 electric + 3.5d6 sonic (Fort save or Dex reduced by two, Fort save or stunned, reflex save or prone, all DC 18+Cha mod)
Any comments? Is this balanced? Method one or method two?Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2010-07-29 at 06:32 PM.
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2010-07-29, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
...what happened to the spell-like ability metamagics? Or are you talking about ones that hadn't been adapted for SLAs?
No knowledge of the class so I can't really say much. Sorry.It's been a bit, GitP. If you're reading this, you're either digging through old stuff, or I've posted for the first time in forever.
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The best answer is always to ask your DM.
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2010-07-29, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
I'd say borrow from metabreath feats. Delay your next blast by X rounds to use Y metablast feat.
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2010-07-29, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Me likey option #1.
However, to really get a good feel for the impact, you'll want to go down the list of metamagic feats and ask yourself, "how could I break the game with this" for each one. You've mentioned that you don't have many books, so may I recommend Crystalkeep?
Also, consider how you'll rule for the various feats and class features that reduce the cost of metamagic for spells.Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
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2010-07-30, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
You already can use limited amounts of metamagic with Eldritch Blast -- all of the Sudden Metamagic feats work, and so do Metamagic Spell-Like Ability.
If your DM's cool with you making up new versions of those feats, you should be good to go. The downside would be being limited to a set number of UPD.Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-07-30 at 05:15 AM. Reason: I absolutely, categorically, did not say "you're DM"
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2010-07-30, 05:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Method one has problems. Say, you have empower spell and your EB would deal 6d6 damage. It now deals 4d6+50%, which is pretty much the same as 6d6. No real effect. But, say you EB deals 8d6, and you use the same. You upped one damage die (6d6+50%=9d6) so there is no reason NOT to use it.
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2010-07-30, 06:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Yes... I think I'd suggest just giving the character limited uses, or "you have seven uses of metamagic per day".
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2010-07-30, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Last edited by Prime32; 2010-07-30 at 06:44 AM.
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2010-07-30, 06:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Not at all. But the effect is rather weird and I think it's just not good when in causes such a disconnect. At low levels, it penalizes, later, it does nothing. Then it gives you a +1d6. Wot.
Edit: Instead of this. I could get behind.
Powerful Blast
Your eldritch blast deals more damage than usual
Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast +2d6
Benefit: Your eldritch blast deals +1d6 more damage. This extra damage does not count for the purpose of prerequisites
Improved Powerful Blast
Moar Damage.
Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast +5d6
Benefit: Your eldritch blast deals +2d6 more damage. This extra damage does not count for the purpose of prerequisites. Stacks with Powerful Blast.
I'd like this more than Empower Spell weirdness.Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2010-07-30 at 06:52 AM.
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2010-07-30, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
You could always reduce the level penalties by 1 (ie. -1d6 for Empower).
Metapsionics have lower costs than metamagics since you need to expend your focus when you use them (every 2 power points effectively increases the power by 1 level).
Burrowing Power: +2
Chain Power: +6
Delay Power: +2
Empower Power: +2
Enlarge Power: +0
Extend Power: +2
Maximise Power: +4
Opportunity Power: +6
Quicken Power: +6
Twin Power: +6
Unconditional Power: +8
Widen Power: +4
For damaging psionic powers, each power point could normally be put into +1d6 damage and +0.5 DC.Last edited by Prime32; 2010-07-30 at 07:01 AM.
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2010-07-30, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Well, In order:
I don't much like the Sudden Metamagics, nor the SLA metamagics. Only being able to do something a certain number of times in a day... eehhh.
The metabreath feats idea makes sense, but how many rounds of inaction is a spell level worth? Hard to convert.
I think the worst one I've found is Empower. With either method, that allows 12d6 at level 20.
Intensify, an epic metamagic, allows 12 damage with method 1 and 72 with method 2.
Quicken would allow you to do 14d6 or 16d6 (method 1 or 2) in a round.
Quicken could be a problem. Maybe if you Quicken an eldritch blast, the lost damage die/levels apply to all EBs that round?
As far as the thing with 'why not use empower?' goes, then it's exactly the same with psionics.
Edit:
Also, consider how you'll rule for the various feats and class features that reduce the cost of metamagic for spells.
For example: Use Quicken. You have an ability that reduces metamagic costs by one.
With method 1, you only reduce damage by 3d6. With method 2, you only reduce your effective level by 3.Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2010-07-30 at 08:31 AM.
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2010-07-30, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
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2010-07-30, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
I'm pretty sure there are no spells that actually lose damage by empowering.
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2010-07-30, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Another recommendation?
Just take the meta-blank effects you want and make them Eldritch Essence/Shape invocations.
Empower and Maximize would be rough to find a system to make them balanced while still worth using. Subtracting from blast damage to add blast damage is silly, and if it's not costing the warlock anything (as method 2) then there's no reason to ever NOT do these things.
As invocations, suddenly there's a choice to be made. Empowering my blast is good, but will I do that over some other essence invocation? And is it worth it to me to spend an invocation on this?
You could even make them "generic" invocations, so they can take up the slot of either an essence or a shape invocation, instead of one or the other.
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2010-07-30, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
That's better, but then you can only get a total of four. Plus, you only get four invocations, you'll wanna put em on something else, no?
I quite like the system I have now. I know that there's really no point in not Empowering something, but I don't really get why that's bad.
A caveat on Method 2 that if you lose any levels, you always lose at least one damage die might be best...Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2010-07-30, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Correct. But there are certainly spell slots that lose damage by empowering. And it is spell slots that are expended, not spells. Let's say my best available slot is 2nd level. I can cast scorching ray, melf's acid arrow, or something similar from this slot (to choose spells that are similar to an eldritch blast). Or I can cast an empowered cantrip. Empowering a spell into that spell slot is very inefficient from a raw DPS perspective.
OTOH, say I have a 4th level slot available. I can cast enervation or orb of fire from this slot, or I can cast an empowered scorching ray. This example is less clear-cut, but in some scenarios, the empower is a good option and in some scenarios it is not.
Suppose I have a 6th level slot available. I can cast freezing sphere or disintigrate in this slot, or I can cast an empowered enervation or empowered orb of fire. There are now many scenarios where I'd rather use the empowered spell, although in certain situations the reduced save DC might be unacceptable.
Does that make sense?Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-30 at 06:52 PM.
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2010-07-30, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
The Eldritch Blast was changed in errata.
Originally Posted by Errata
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2010-07-30, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
That makes EB itself worse...
I guess, but I'm not so fond of per-day limits.Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2010-07-30, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-30, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
It reduces save DCs, mostly.
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2010-07-30, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Not really. You don't lose anything throwing an Eldritch Blast, so a method that has you always Empowering your EB at certain levels and never doing it other levels isn't nearly the same as comparing an empowered spell vs. a spell of the same level. With one, there's a choice, and with the other, it's either strictly better or strictly worse.
That's better, but then you can only get a total of four. Plus, you only get four invocations, you'll wanna put em on something else, no?
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2010-07-30, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Actually, you DO lose something by meta-ing an EB. It becomes a Full Round Action.
That's been up there since I first posted but I keep forgetting to say it...
And whoah, so you do. I missed that. DXDRecent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2010-07-30, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Simple the metabreath feats already mimic metamagic and valued it at 1 round/spell level.
Method one should only give you 7d6 x 1.5 or 10.5d6 not a full 12d6 as it lowers the number of dice by 2 and you only get 9d6 at Lv 20.
As for the total just think Hellfire Warlock with a binder dib already deals 14d6 per round as a standard action. This only gets really problematic if combined with something like Hellfire Warlock.
As for Quicken normally spontaneous casters can't use it so maybe you could go that route, or else the problem becomes not Quickened but Quickened Blast (5d6) followed by Empowered Blast (10.5d6).Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
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2010-07-30, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-31, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Hm. That would make sense then, but to be honest, I like the system I have now.
I beg your pardon, I thought Empower was one level. (Curtsey)
I think it's silly to make Quicken not work for spontaneous casters. So, I think the idea I had earlier of saying 'If you apply metamagic to an eldritch blast, you must apply the same metamagic to all other eldritch blasts you fire before your next round. If you can't, such as with Quicken, you lose damage dice as if you had.'
Yes, but if you lose a lower level Essence than your Eldritch Blast, you lose out.Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2010-07-31, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Simply allow Rapid Metamagic to function for the Warlock? Quicken problem solved.
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2010-07-31, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
TBH, if it were my game, I'd just say 'applying metamagic to a spontaneous caster's spell makes it a full round action-unless it's Quicken.'
But otherwise, a sensible solution.Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2010-07-31, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
100% Unnecessary for warlocks.
How do you suppose the quicken spell-like ability feat works? How do you suppose a balor gets to quicken his telekinesis spell 3/day. Well it works because the increased casting time only applies to metamagic feats,
Quicken Spell-Like ability is a [general] feat not a [metamagic feat]. The same is true for any xxx spell-like ability feat.
A few things from the RAW and the FAQ
Originally Posted by Errata for Complete Arcane
Originally Posted by FAQ
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2010-07-31, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Because, as is, you can only do it a certain number of times a day.
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2010-07-31, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Eldritch Blast Metamagic
Not to mention the fact there're very, very few XXX SLA feats hanging around. Not nearly as many as there are metamagics.
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