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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Joining as competitor? This is my first time at this, as my builds tend to be a little...wonky. What do the master chefs think about fractional BAB and saves--is that a disallowed alternate rule?
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-08-03 at 11:55 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Joining as competitor? This is my first time at this, as my builds tend to be a little...wonky. What do the master chefs think about fractional BAB and saves--is that a disallowed alternate rule?
    DISCLAIMER: I'm not a judge. Most of the past judges have said that fractional BAB/Saves fell under the 'alternate rules' clause that would mean a deduction in Elegance. I don't recall anything specific to fractionals listed thus far for this particular contest.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    You can make a side note to include all of the possible alternate rules and their impacts, but I personally wouldn't include them in the bulk of the build.

    For example, put in a spoiler:
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    If using Factional BAB and saves, BAB increases from 16 to 17, and base saves go from 12/2/4 to 9/3/6 for a more even distribution.

    It probably wouldn't be wise to rely on it to qualify for PrCs though, as you'll probably get hit in the Elegance department.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-08-03 at 12:08 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Hmm, I have an idea that may be rather interesting and different, though power is gonna be highly variable, depending on the game type it's for. I think I'll chance it, though. Sign me up as a contestant so I can say I was on both sides of the Judge's card!
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    I probably shouldn't spend time on this contest, but I've had a build idea occur and it will drive me nuts if I don't enter it. So expect me as a contestant as well.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Thanks for the input! I'm definitely cooking up something that I think is a little different. Multi-classing penalties are considered in judging, it seems? I'm assuming if your class distribution is placed to avoid penalties, that factors into Elegance?

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    My best idea so far reeks of 'obvious synergy', so I'm still fumbling around for a good concept.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Thanks for the input! I'm definitely cooking up something that I think is a little different. Multi-classing penalties are considered in judging, it seems? I'm assuming if your class distribution is placed to avoid penalties, that factors into Elegance?
    I think some judges have publicly stated that they won't penalize for multiclassing penalties ever, because they hate those rules. Some judges may not agree, however.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Joining as competitor? This is my first time at this, as my builds tend to be a little...wonky. What do the master chefs think about fractional BAB and saves--is that a disallowed alternate rule?
    I believe that the prior ruling was that your build should not be reliant on fractional saves/bab or similar alternate rules systems.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    So many different Animal Lords to choose from...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    So many different Animal Lords to choose from...
    Yeah, it's going to be interesting seeing which different Animal Lords see use. There doesn't seem to be a HUGE difference in power between most of them.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    The only build I could think of off hand would have an Originality Score of about 1. Having said that, at least it wouldn't have a Druid base. Would also likely get an average Elegance score... bonus for staying with SRD + CAdv, but loose for alternative features.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-08-04 at 11:14 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    The only build I could think of off hand would have an Originality Score of about 1. Having said that, at least it wouldn't have a Druid base. Would also likely get an average Elegance score... bonus for staying with SRD + CAdv, but loose for alternative features.
    Well, here's a question.

    What if you used totally expected classes but used them in a very original way? Do you judges base your votes on the class or the use of it?

    I've noticed how someone always uses Pact magic at least once a contest and seem to get a decent originality score no matter what the content is.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble View Post
    Well, here's a question.

    What if you used totally expected classes but used them in a very original way? Do you judges base your votes on the class or the use of it?

    I've noticed how someone always uses Pact magic at least once a contest and seem to get a decent originality score no matter what the content is.
    Tome of Magic remains obscure to some people regardless of how often it crops up... >_>;;
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Indeed. Using MoI, ToB, or ToM seems to always net points in originality. However, noone ever uses truenamer, Soulborn, or Shadowcaster, probably because they lack synergy with most existing PrC's. Hmmm...

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2010-08-04 at 12:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?
    Previous contest judges have made mention of the fact that entering multiple builds is allowed but might not be in your best interest, compared to focusing in on making one build as strong as possible in the time allotted.

    Excessive multiclassing is very personal for each judge. I know arguskos would deduct points in the past if you had more than one single-level dip, or more than a couple two-level dips. Use your best judgment.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Um, I'm pretty sure you can only submit one entry. Try finding someone who is not competing or judging and sending them both entries to get an objective opinion on which is the stronger competator.

    As far as excessive multiclassing, its strongly advised that you don't have a multiclass penalty, simply because ignoring multiclass penalties is technically an optional rule, even if most people do it. Also, blatent one level dips in unrelated classes will probably drop you some points docked. Dipping cloistered cleric1 as a fighter type for the 3 feats and TU will probably be unwise, while dipping 1 barb for pounce on a fighter type would be much more acceptable. On the other side, dipping cleric1 and then progressing it with a casting PrC is acceptable. Me personally, as a judge, I don't have a problem with 5-6 classes, especially if one of them is short like Exotic Weapon Master or some of the 5 level ones.

    Again, this is only my preference for judging. Others might have differing opinions. Thats the give/take of having multiple judges.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    Obviously, since I'm judging and not competing in this one, it's not going to directly effect me for this contest: but out of curiosity, is you preference here merely against sidebars (like the unarmed Swordsage adaptation) or does it include the in text adaptation sections (such as, say, making moving shadow magic mysteries to a smoke theme)?
    Sorry, I don't know what you meant. I'm not very familiar with shadow magic.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-08-04 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Very cool PrC choice IMO, and glad to see that BooNL is back in the game!
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Very cool PrC choice IMO, and glad to see that BooNL is back in the game!
    Will you be beating joining us this time around, Akal?
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    I haven't made up my mind yet. I'd love to do something fun with the PrC, but I haven't found any special mechanic that synergizes well besides grappling, and I have a hunch that at least one other contestant will hone in on that as well.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?
    Multiclassing is going to vary by judge. If you have to ask, you're probably going to take at least some penalty in elegance for some judges. But remember that's one category of four for some judges: if you get, say, a boost in power or use of special ingredient from some interesting synergy, it may well be worth it.

    On two builds, I believe the prior answer when it came up was a no. That would be my instinct as well. That is, however, a question better left to the chairman, so you may want to wait for Pinny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Indeed. Using MoI, ToB, or ToM seems to always net points in originality. However, noone ever uses truenamer, Soulborn, or Shadowcaster, probably because they lack synergy with most existing PrC's. Hmmm...
    Yeah, I'm personally not giving you points merely for using those any more than I would award points merely for using psionics. But if you find something particularly creative with them...

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Sorry, I don't know what you meant. I'm not very familiar with shadow magic.
    One of the recommended adaptations for the system is switching the theme from shaping the power of shadows to shaping smoke. More on topic however, I was asking if you were okay with the in-entry adaptation sections, as opposed to the sidebars.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2010-08-04 at 03:39 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    One of the recommended adaptations for the system is switching the theme from shaping the power of shadows to shaping smoke. More on topic however, I was asking if you were okay with the in-entry adaptation sections, as opposed to the sidebars.
    It depends, mostly. If done only for flavour, I wouldn't mind. If done to qualify for something or to be more powerful, I would most definetly mind.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?
    Amphetryon has it right on both counts. For an example of excessive multiclassing, see Torar, from Iron Chef IV.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    I fail to see how that counts...its 6. All of the entries in the GSA competition used 3-5, and 6 is just 1 more than 5. He has 2 Barbarian levels split, but thats probably for getting class skills to fall in the right order to get where he wants.

    Melee classes tend to be topheavy and stack well. Fighter2/Barbarian2/Warblade2 is, in most cases, stronger than Fighter 6, Barbarian6, or Warblade6. Thats the blessing and curse of melee characters. Also, most hybred PrCs (like the above mentioned GSA) will have at LEAST 3, since you need X and Y to get into Z, and then something like N to progress X or Y after you take all the levels of Z you can get.

    I don't think 6 classes is too many. I'd probably draw the line at 7 though, simply because by that time you'll probably have 9-10 levels of the secret ingredient meaning that you have 6 classes taking up the other 10-11 levels.

    Thats my official stance as judge. What other judges do is their own priority.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-08-04 at 07:25 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Am I reading Birdlord right? It requires Improved Flight, and grants the ability to fly part way through its progression?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Am I reading Birdlord right? It requires Improved Flight, and grants the ability to fly part way through its progression?
    Well, there are at least a couple or three semi-flying races or templates that allow it. Least make it worthwhile.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    I fail to see how that counts...its 6. All of the entries in the GSA competition used 3-5, and 6 is just 1 more than 5. He has 2 Barbarian levels split, but thats probably for getting class skills to fall in the right order to get where he wants.
    Personally, I feel it's more about the fact that he used 4 different base classes, none of which went beyond 2 levels.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge IX

    Side question, away from book currently, but was wondering if the Animal Lord from ROTW was the same or different from the Complete Adventurer version? If they are different, can anyone give me a quick run down? (As in completely different, similar but DR is different, or the same)
    Last edited by mjames; 2010-08-04 at 08:55 PM.

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