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    Default 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    The Invisible Blades are more a fighting style than any form of organisation. They are most commonly found in Thieves or Assasin's guilds, due to their abilities at entering and killing unseen. The ability to hold a sword in your hand and appear unarmed is much undervalued-except by the Invisible Blades.

    Invisible Blades are sometimes prized by military groups, due to their abilities as spies, saboteurs and assassins.

    Becoming an Invisible Blade is simple, given the right circumstances. An intimate knowledge of invisibility magic-and decent fighting skill-is all that is required.

    Prerequisites
    BAB:+4
    Spellcasting: Ability to cast Invisibility
    Proficiency: Proficiency with all martial weapons.

    Alignment: Military Invisible Blades tend towards neutrality on the chaos/order line, while more roguelike Blade's tend towards chaos. Nonetheless, they can be of any alignment.
    Hit Die: d8
    Class Skills: The Invisible Blades class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex and Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points at each Level: 4+Int modifier

    The Invisible Blade
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Spells
    1st
    +1
    +0
    +0
    +2
    Invisible Blade -
    2nd
    +2
    +0
    +0
    +3
    Weak Point +1 level of existing spellcasting class
    3rd
    +3
    +1
    +1
    +3
    Undetectable Strike, Lost Weapon +1 level of existing spellcasting class

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: The Invisible Blade gains no new proficiencies.

    Invisible Blade(Su): At will, the Invisible Blade may cause any weapons on her person to become invisible. When fighting an opponent who cannot see her weapon, she gains the following benefits:

    * She receives a +1 bonus to hit, because opponents have difficulty judging the timing of her attacks.
    * When fighting defensively, taking full defense or using Combat Expertise, she gains an additional +1 AC.
    * She may feint as a swift action, and receives a +2 circumstance bonus on her check.

    A weapon that leaves the Invisible Blade's person remains invisible for one minute.

    Weak Point (Su): When fighting something you cannot see, you can't dodge to make it hit your armour. You can't protect your weaknesses. In essence, you are at your opponent's mercy.
    An Invisible Blade of at least 2nd level gains a +1 bonus to his threat range equal to his class level when using an invisible weapon. This is applied after all other modifications to the threat range. At third level, this is increased to a +2 bonus.

    Undetectable Strike (Su): Once per day, an Invisible Blade can cast Greater Invisibility on themself as a standard action. (Using whatever caster level they used to cast Invisibility, to enter the class. If they have no caster level, treat their caster level as three.) While invisible (for any reason), their attacks count as Touch Attacks, in addition to the normal benefits of being invisible. However, while you are fully invisible, none of the benefits of the Invisible Blade class feature apply.

    Lost Weapon (Su): A third level Invisible Blade can force a thrown weapon or ammunition to be 'lost', removing all traces. Make a concentration check when you make your attack, with DC equal to `15+1 per ten feet between you and the weapon. If you succeed, it returns to your hand, or sheathed or otherwise on you if you have no spare hands.
    If you fail, the weapon is destroyed utterly, leaving no trace, unless it was magical, in which case it merely becomes visible after your class level+your main spellcasting ability modifier, as normal.

    * * *

    I saw a class called the Invisible Blade, thought 'Wow cool!' and was promptly met with another rogue. I tried to remedy this. Sorry for lack of fluff and detail, I'm MEANT to be going on holiday two hours, thirty-three minutes ago.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2014-04-04 at 12:42 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Well, the class has no skills or skill points.

    The Invisible Blade class feature is free +6 AC and free +6 on attack rolls, Weak Point will provide dozens more critical hits, And Undetectable Strike allows for free touch attack pretty much all the time.

    Combined with the low prerequisites, there is really no reason for a gish to not take this class (Well, except that it has no skills or skill points).

    Unfortunately, I'm not sure what to suggest to help balance it out. There's not much to go on, really.
    Last edited by Xallace; 2010-08-07 at 08:47 AM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Hit die should be d6. BAB should be +3/4.

    Undetectable Strike combined with Invisible Blade means that your opponent's AC is reduced to 4 + deflection + insight bonuses. With your required BAB, you can hit anybody on a 1.

    Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say "no" to that.


    Warlock 6 can get in without any real trouble, at which point you can hit anybody with anything. Heck, this makes hideous blow worthwhile.


    Invisible Blade should be able to be opposed with a Spot or Sense Motive check, since there's still an arm there... maybe just have it make feints easier?


    Weak Point I like. Critical hits are fun.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    All of your class features need some fluff cleanup -- you shouldn't really be gaining any benefit against opponents who can see you/your gear.

    Otherwise, yes, this is extremely strong -- especially the "Touch Attacks while invisible".

    Also, additions to threat range carry a bit more weight than multiplications in some cases -- a 12-20 threat range is not broken partly because it costs a lot to get that. A 15-20 scythe might be a little scarier.

    It's a nice concept overall, however.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-08-07 at 12:12 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    So... +6 attack, +6 AC, a 3 number bigger crit range, very low prerequisites, and all attacks being touch attacks, even if you can see the weapons?

    This seems rather broken.

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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    In order: Weak Point I was unsure on. I could reduce it to a straight addition to your threat range, and mention that it's only with an invisible weapon. Also, I could reduce it to a +2, or +1.

    Undetectable Strike only makes your attacks touch attacks when YOU are invisible, not just your weapon.
    In addition, it REPLACES the -6 to AC they get. I shall make that clearer.

    A Sense Motive check to counteract Invisible Blade makes sense. What's a good DC?

    Hit die d6, maybe. I don't like gishes with less than full BAB.

    You DON'T get your bonuses if they can see you/your gear. I suppose I should spell that out.

    I'm not sure Touch Attacks while invisible IS that amazing. You can do it a few times a day, I guess... I could make it only work if they don't know you're there at all? (Only unaware)

    As an overall nerf, I considered not advancing spellcasting. Good idea?

    Also, how much do the Prereqs need to go up?
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    I'd say the prerequisites need to be quite high for this class to be balanced. An alternative would be to make the first level not advance spellcasting so that it wouldn't be so much of a no-brainer to take two levels of the class. As is, the first two levels are a definite for anyone that meets the requirements - d8 hit dice, 6+int skills, a good skill list, spellcasting advancement, AND full BAB is already gravy for any class.

    As is, the only worthwhile requirement is a single martial/exotic weapon proficiency. This means that a couple of races can already enter the class with their racial proficiencies, and even if not, it's very easy to gain proficiency with one weapon. You'd probably need to add at least two feat requirement that is not optimal (for example, agile) as well as maybe a few ranks in tumble. That way, there's at least a bit of a disincentive to take the class over, say, divine oracle.

    Otherwise, clerics and warlocks will gobble up the first two levels of the class, as will the restricted list mages and wizards that don't gish themselves.

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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Hit die d6, maybe. I don't like gishes with less than full BAB.
    A rogue does not have full BAB. Why should this class?
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Fely: Like I said, I considered not advancing spellcasting AT ALL. That might be a simple solution. (Also, your location seems to be outdated by your avatar. XD)
    SioSilvar: Rogues sneak about and steal. They sneak about and hit things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Siosilvar: Rogues sneak about and steal. They sneak about and hit things.
    There's no capitalization in my name.

    Rogues sneak about and hit things. What do you think Sneak Attack is for?
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Sorry.

    It's not their primary background though. Besides, they have Sneak Attack.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Sorry.

    It's not their primary background though. Besides, they have Sneak Attack.
    And your invisible blade has Invisible Blade and Weak Point... As it stands right now, it doesn't even need full BAB to hit things. And Undetectable Strike is... I guess it'd be ok if it was once a day for a couple of minutes, or once per encounter for one or two rounds, but to bind it to invisibility... No, not a good idea. There's lots of ways to get perma invis. Warlocks are one good example, and a ring of invisibility, while expensive is another. And for touch attacks all day, I'd gladly pay for that ring.

    However, I really like to fluff. Why don't you try expanding it a bit further, say to at least 5 levels, toning down Undetectable Strike, lowering the BAB to medium and then it should be better balanced, as it stands right now there is no gish anywhere that wouldn't take this class asap.

    EDIT: Oh, and as people have said before me, switch the loss of CL to 1:st lvl instead of third.
    Last edited by drakir_nosslin; 2010-08-07 at 11:07 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    How about if I remove ALL the casting levels, and make Undetectable Strike be 'for a maximum of (casting mod) attacks per day?'

    I really, REALLY don't want to lose the full BAB.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Hey Lixie! Who's that in your Avatar? It looks like...wait...nevermind. I'm afraid to know.


    So anyways, looking at your Invisible Blade...neat. A few small changes would balance it. Point-by-point:

    Prerequisites: If you want full base attack, consider requiring proficiency with all martial weapons as a prerequisite. If you're already competent with many difficult-to-use weapons, it begins to explain how your combat ability advances so quickly.

    Skills: A full base attack casting gish with massive combat advantages should not also get massive skill points. You'll only end up making players of all other classes feel small in the pants. I'd recommend 2 skill points per level, although you could justify 4 if you spread the features out over 5 levels. Remember, you really don't need to use your skills overmuch: you have spells for that.

    Spellcasting: if you desire it to be at all gishy, I'd avoid dumping all casting. It would see little use if you did that. The lost caster level should be at level 2, rather than level 3.

    Invisible blade: Minor note: avoid durations that are counted in rounds. They impose add a lot of bookkeeping.
    Major Note: The game already gives a benefit of +2 to hit and the opponent losing Dex to AC when your whole self is invisible. -6 to target AC for having only your weapon invisible seems disproportionate. Moreover, the bonus is just grotesquely large. I can't think of any martial class that gets a combined +9 attack advantage in three levels. If you want the fluff to match the ability, you need to fluff the ability as something much more than simply an invisible weapon. If you want the ability to match the fluff, scale the benefit down and make it more similar to the normal benefits of invisibility. Here's an example of what you might do:

    Invisible Blade(Su): At will, the Invisible Blade may cause any weapons on her person to become invisible. When fighting an opponent who cannot see her weapon, she gains the following benefits:
    • She receives a +1 bonus to hit, because opponents have difficulty judging the timing of her attacks.
    • When fighting defensively, taking full defense or using Combat Expertise, she gains an additional +1 AC.
    • She may feint as a swift action, and receives a +2 circumstance bonus on her check.


    A weapon that leaves the Invisible Blade's person remains invisible for one minute.
    Since the version shown above is much weaker than your original, this does deflect the criticism about the OP nature of the class, and may even leave room for inserting additional abilities.

    Undetectable Strike: Make it a standard action or swift action to activate. It's best not to give away free stuff without an action investment. If it's really being "cast", the ability should be spell-like rather than supernatural.

    Lost Weapon: I'd recommend that the DC be based on how far the weapon has to travel to return to you, rather than the AC of the target you aimed at. I really can't think of a reason why it would be harder to retrieve a weapon thrown at a fighter in full plate than against the stone wall he's leaning against. I'd suggest a DC of 15 + 1 per 10 feet of distance.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-08-08 at 10:08 AM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 PrC: The Invisible Blade (No connection to the Complete Warrior class)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Hey Lixie! Who's that in your Avatar? It looks like...wait...nevermind. I'm afraid to know.
    Introbulus. Both of them. (Grin)

    So anyways, looking at your Invisible Blade...neat. A few small changes would balance it. Point-by-point:

    Prerequisites: If you want full base attack, consider requiring proficiency with all martial weapons as a prerequisite. If you're already competent with many difficult-to-use weapons, it begins to explain how your combat ability advances so quickly.
    Hm. A good point.

    Skills: A full base attack casting gish with massive combat advantages should not also get massive skill points. You'll only end up making players of all other classes feel small in the pants. I'd recommend 2 skill points per level, although you could justify 4 if you spread the features out over 5 levels. Remember, you really don't need to use your skills overmuch: you have spells for that.
    I guess. :/ It's just, they are fighty-sneaky, and it feels odd... ohwell. 4 skill points.

    Spellcasting: if you desire it to be at all gishy, I'd avoid dumping all casting. It would see little use if you did that. The lost caster level should be at level 2, rather than level 3.
    Well... how aboutdumping spellcasting, but adding class level to caster level? So, you can still cast at a high level, but not as much.

    Invisible blade: Minor note: avoid durations that are counted in rounds. They impose add a lot of bookkeeping.
    Major Note: The game already gives a benefit of +2 to hit and the opponent losing Dex to AC when your whole self is invisible. -6 to target AC for having only your weapon invisible seems disproportionate. Moreover, the bonus is just grotesquely large. I can't think of any martial class that gets a combined +9 attack advantage in three levels. If you want the fluff to match the ability, you need to fluff the ability as something much more than simply an invisible weapon. If you want the ability to match the fluff, scale the benefit down and make it more similar to the normal benefits of invisibility. Here's an example of what you might do:
    Okay. That's... probably more fair. (nods reluctantly)

    Since the version shown above is much weaker than your original, this does deflect the criticism about the OP nature of the class, and may even leave room for inserting additional abilities.
    I struggled thinking of this many. DXD

    Undetectable Strike: Make it a standard action or swift action to activate. It's best not to give away free stuff without an action investment. If it's really being "cast", the ability should be spell-like rather than supernatural.
    Point. The Greater Invisibility is spell like, the rest isn't. How about 'strike as a touch attack (primary casting modifer) per day?

    Lost Weapon: I'd recommend that the DC be based on how far the weapon has to travel to return to you, rather than the AC of the target you aimed at. I really can't think of a reason why it would be harder to retrieve a weapon thrown at a fighter in full plate than against the stone wall he's leaning against. I'd suggest a DC of 15 + 1 per 10 feet of distance.
    Okay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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