What the... Crusader why are you so odd...

[undead hero]

So I'm reading ToB again for the first time in years and I read the maneuver section of the Crusader and I really don't understand why they would make such a god awful mechanic....

Is there any fixes? Would giving the Crusader the Swordsage or Warblade's recovery be a good fix?

I'm thinking of getting rid of their recovery mechanic and replace it with one that would let you have access to all maneuvers known, however if you use the same maneuver in the same encounter the target gets a bonus to any defense to targets (since the enemy has seen that move before) unless the Martial Adept waits so many rounds to use that maneuver again. This will keep spamming at a minimum and makes the system more real life like.

Has that been done already?

[The Dark Fiddler]

What's your problem with the crusader's recovery mechanic, aside from it being "god awful"? Personally, I enjoy it greatly. I can see that you may disagree, but it's hard to come up with alternatives without knowing what your gripe is.

[undead hero]

All of the mechanic?

The randomly gain or loose a maneuver part is just so troublesome.

[Novawurmson]

Replace with Swordsage/Warblade mechanic?

I find it's pretty easy if you print off the maneuvers and put them on cards. At the beginning of combat, draw the correct number of cards. Draw a card at the end of your turn, put them in a "discard pile" when used.

[Circle of Life]

Personally, I think the Crusader's recovery mechanic is great. It's a simple way of representing the flashes of divine insight the Crusader is based around. Mechanically, it's also the best recovery mechanic of the printed classes, since you don't have to expend actions to get new ones.

*shrug*

No, the odd thing about the Crusader is the stance progression. Read that table, then consult the maneuver lists. Yeah.

[Big Fau]

You know, a random selection from a pile of awesome is still awesome...

[undead hero]

I don't like the fluff either really :) . The flashes of divine insight is a bit odd for fluff since it is more like your god is telling you what you should do... Which shouldn't be random -_-;;;

Unless you are LG and your deity is actually CE (and you don't know that) and he is messing with you for fun.

Hmm the best way to simulate that would have the DM* decide which ones you refresh :D

The stances to maneuvers are a bit odd but I always read those two columns separately so I never had a problem with it.

* Said DM would be the cruel evil bastard type for the most fun, eventually he would give the player a UNO Card :)

[The Glyphstone]

All of the mechanic?

The randomly gain or loose a maneuver part is just so troublesome.

Randomly lose a maneuver? What?

Your maneuvers gained are random, but one it's readied, it stays there until you expend it.

[Manateee]

The rule is silly, but it's the most powerful recovery mechanic, and it can be kind of fun in the same way Vancian casting can be.

[gkathellar]

I dunno, I think the Crusader recovery mechanic is fantastic. It has no action cost, which means you never have to spend a boring turn not using maneuvers or moving. It cycles and shuffles your maneuvers so that your actions are never "use trick, rinse, repeat."

Sure it requires a little improvisation, sure the fluff might not be perfect, but recovery mechanics are game abstractions anyway — all they have to do from a fluff perspective is give combat a dramatic rhythm. Which is exactly what the Crusader's recovery mechanic does — better than the other mechanics, actually. And above all, it's fun.

[Prime32]

The crusader's mechanic seems to make the most mechanical sense to me out of all the mechanics there. "You spotted an opportunity where you can use X move".

[Coidzor]

* Said DM would be the cruel evil bastard type for the most fun, eventually he would give the player a UNO Card :)

Except then the player could just declare uno, play the uno card, and win D&D, thus ending the DM's campaign prematurely.

[Chronos]

The Crusader's recovery mechanic ensures that you always have something to do, and also ensures that it's not always the same something. I've never played one, but it seems to me that both of those should help keep the game from getting boring.

This is as opposed to the Swordsage, who effectively has no recovery mechanic at all. No maneuver is ever worth spending a whole full-round action to regain. Even if you're regaining a 9th-level maneuver like Time Stands Still, you're still just breaking even.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Crusader's recovery mechanic ensures that you always have something to do, and also ensures that it's not always the same something. I've never played one, but it seems to me that both of those should help keep the game from getting boring.

This is as opposed to the Swordsage, who effectively has no recovery mechanic at all. No maneuver is ever worth spending a whole full-round action to regain. Even if you're regaining a 9th-level maneuver like Time Stands Still, you're still just breaking even.

While it is a feat Tax Adaptive style somewhat fixes that problem and you can even afford to ready some situational maneuvers as you can ready new Maneuvers with a full round action using Adaptive style.

[The Glyphstone]

The Crusader's recovery mechanic ensures that you always have something to do, and also ensures that it's not always the same something. I've never played one, but it seems to me that both of those should help keep the game from getting boring.

This is as opposed to the Swordsage, who effectively has no recovery mechanic at all. No maneuver is ever worth spending a whole full-round action to regain. Even if you're regaining a 9th-level maneuver like Time Stands Still, you're still just breaking even.

The Swordsage's recovery mechanic is all his maneuvers for a full-round action, and he gets no feat at 1st level.

[Glimbur]

Randomly lose a maneuver? What?

Your maneuvers gained are random, but one it's readied, it stays there until you expend it.

If I recall correctly, maneuvers are reshuffled the turn after you have been granted the last one. Therefore, if there is a maneuver you haven't used, you can lose it temporarily. However, you probably didn't use that maneuver for a reason... I like the crusader mechanic although it is cumbersome for a DM running several crusaders at once.

[Prime32]

Just print out the cards. Shuffle them, tap them, etc.

EDIT: The cards are here.

[Coidzor]

Just print out the cards. Shuffle them, tap them, etc.

Buy a deck of playing cards and mark 'em with the respective manuevers if you have to for shuffling purposes. You can get the cheap ones for a buck, after all.

[Elric VIII]

The Crusader's recovery mechanic ensures that you always have something to do, and also ensures that it's not always the same something. I've never played one, but it seems to me that both of those should help keep the game from getting boring.

This is as opposed to the Swordsage, who effectively has no recovery mechanic at all. No maneuver is ever worth spending a whole full-round action to regain. Even if you're regaining a 9th-level maneuver like Time Stands Still, you're still just breaking even.

Although, I believe that the Swordsage recovery (or Adaptive Style if your DM is a cool dude and gives it to SS for free) allows the use of swift/immediate maneuvers. This works rather well with a shadow pouncer that can get 3 full attacks on turn 1, then alternated between 1 and 2 on subsequent turns.

[Lateral]

The Swordsage's recovery mechanic is all his maneuvers for a full-round action, and he gets no feat at 1st level.

Nah, not even.

You can recover an expended maneuver by using a full-round action to quickly meditate. [...] If you complete your meditation, you can choose one expended maneuver to refresh. It is now available for use in a subsequent round.

There's a reason almost every Swordsage takes Adaptive Style.

[kardar233]

Nah, not even.



There's a reason almost every Swordsage takes Adaptive Style.

That was a joke about how every Swordsage takes Adaptive Style.

[Lateral]

...How did I not get that.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A special note to the "Idiot Crusader," which is really any Crusader build that ends up gaining as any maneuvers granted as known (doable via multiclassing and prestige classes). Doing so require a bit of leg work and levels, but once you reach that point, said Crusader has access to every single one of his readied maneuvers every single round (at least, from his crusader "side").

Silly? Yes. Effective? Yes. Even for solo-classed Crusaders, Extra Granted Maneuver can help you gain a little extra so you cycle for your full list faster.

[kardar233]

...How did I not get that.

Maybe you're a Crusader with the same maneuvers known as granted.... No insult intended. Please don't kill me.

[Rossebay]

Maybe you're a Crusader with the same maneuvers known as granted.... No insult intended. Please don't kill me.

I think that was a BURN!


Hahaha. Anyway, I must say that I appreciate the Crusader's recovery mechanic, but... I'd say swap it out for the Warblade's recovery mechanic, or the Swordsage's.

[DegenPaladin]

Just as a note for anyone using those cards. The Stone Dragon Discipline is missing Stone Vise. Found that out the hard way when making a full deck of all the maneuvers :P

[Flickerdart]

What is odd about the Crusader is that he gains Smite, even less Smite than a Paladin, in a book that's all about renewable per-encounter abilities.

[FMArthur]

It's a less situational Smite though. They probably expect you to take Extra Smiting or something, and you can actually afford it because as a martial adepts your class doesn't devour your feats just to break even.

[Flickerdart]

It's not having too little of it that's weird, it's that it's there at all.

[Phaederkiel]

In my opinion the recovery mechanic is great fun. You do something else every round, you can hope, you must improvise.