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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell]

    Leaps and Bounds
    Transmutation
    Level: Drd 3, Rgr 3, Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S, M
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 min./level
    Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You bestow strength in the limbs of the subject, granting better speed and jumping ability. The subject gains a +60-foot enhancement bonus to their land speed and a +20 enhancement bonus on Jump checks, besides. This bonus increases to +30 at caster level 9th. In addition, the subject can perform a great leap once. This jump is made with a +30 enhancement bonus and allows the jumper to make a second jump with no enhancement bonus.

    Material Component
    A grasshopper's hind leg, which you break when the spell is cast, and a tiny scrap of cheetah hide, which you rip in half and fuse into your feet.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-09-04 at 10:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    Material Component
    A grasshopper's hind leg, which you break when the spell is cast, and
    And what?

    Well, having said that, I guess I had better actually say something about the spells. Does Leaps and Bounds bonus to Jump checks also include the bonus it gives to base movement speed? If not, then they overall gain a +25 bonus to Jump checks, able to make one Jump check at +55.

    That is just a little bit too much, unless you truly want a character to potentially get a +67 bonus to Jump, and with rather minimal bonii to Strength and such. If a Tiger Claw Warblade were to have this cast on them, the results would be rather scary.

    Level 3

    7 ranks
    +3 Strength (certainly possible)
    +2 masterwork item (boots, most likely)
    +25 (spell)
    +30 (once per duration)

    At the minimum, probably.

    I would recommend either toning down the bonii, or making it personal only. The second spell looks fine.

    [Edit]: Also, when combined with the Jumplomancer (who also happens to have Leaps and Bounds on their Spell List), the results are kind of scary.

    ((50+10+30)x1.5)10= 1350 speed on a charge, with a cheesed reading.

    Even without one, you get (((50+10)x1.5)+30)10= 1200.

    Cheesed Reading: ((1350-30)/10)4= +528
    Non-Cheesed: ((1200-30)/10)4= +468

    And then you have to factor in the bonuses granted from other sources besides movement.
    Last edited by unosarta; 2010-09-03 at 11:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by unosarta View Post
    7 ranks
    +3 Strength (certainly possible)
    +2 masterwork item (boots, most likely)
    +25 (spell)
    +30 (once per duration)
    The spell gives a +30-foot bonus to speed, which is (assuming a normal land speed of 30 feet) 60 feet, granting a bonus of +12. At 3rd level, that would be +22, unless I missed something.

    I would recommend either toning down the bonii, or making it personal only. The second spell looks fine.
    I made it personal. That makes some sense, since the expeditious retreat half of the spell has a personal range.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    The spell gives a +30-foot bonus to speed, which is (assuming a normal land speed of 30 feet) 60 feet, granting a bonus of +12. At 3rd level, that would be +22, unless I missed something.
    Huh. I completely forgot about that.

    Still, you need to see the interaction between this spell and the Jumplomancer I edited into my first post, because that is just kind of ridiculous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    I made it personal. That makes some sense, since the expeditious retreat half of the spell has a personal range.
    Yeah, this makes a lot more sense now. Also, I kind of like the double Jump effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by unosarta View Post
    Still, you need to see the interaction between this spell and the Jumplomancer I edited into my first post, because that is just kind of ridiculous.
    Yeah, no.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    Yeah, no.
    You can't argue with the guy when he Jumps 600 feet in the air, and then lands unharmed among a crowd of adoring fans, who currently would die and/or kill themselves for his sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by unosarta View Post
    You can't argue with the guy when he Jumps 600 feet in the air, and then lands unharmed among a crowd of adoring fans, who currently would die and/or kill themselves for his sake.

    "It's a bird!" "It's a plane!" "No, it's...wait, what's a plane?" "I thought planes were, like, what we live on. You know. Our world...the shadow plane...all that." "Ugh."

    "...I just jumped past the gods themselves, and all these people have to do is argue about what a plane is."

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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    "It's a bird!" "It's a plane!" "No, it's...wait, what's a plane?" "I thought planes were, like, what we live on. You know. Our world...the shadow plane...all that." "Ugh."

    "...I just jumped past the gods themselves, and all these people have to do is argue about what a plane is."

    "Look! It's a bird!"
    "It's a plane!"
    "Are there any snakes on it?"
    "I think I see Samuel L. Jackson, so it is a definite possibility!"
    "Oh, look, there is a guy jumping over the plane!"
    "Let's go have his babies!"

    Also, the look on the Gods' faces when they see a Fighter/Druid/Examplar jumping over them would be hysterical to watch. Especially since they are immune to mind affecting (IIRC), and therefore simply become friendly.

    I wonder if he could become a God by jumping over a city? I would worship him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Burst of Speed is actually better for Jumps early on, since that +60 feet translates to +24 to Jump, as compared to Leaps and Bounds' +22. When you hit 5th level, Leaps and Bounds will surpass it but the only thing Leaps and Bounds has over Burst of Speed is the 2nd jump.

    Speaking of, is this supposed to emulate a Double Jump, so I can jump in mid-air? It's kinda unclear, really.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Burst of Speed is actually better for Jumps early on, since that +60 feet translates to +24 to Jump, as compared to Leaps and Bounds' +22. When you hit 5th level, Leaps and Bounds will surpass it but the only thing Leaps and Bounds has over Burst of Speed is the 2nd jump.
    Good point. What would you suggest I do?

    Speaking of, is this supposed to emulate a Double Jump, so I can jump in mid-air? It's kinda unclear, really.
    It can. Some DMs or players might not like the look of that, so I left it slightly unclear. It functions as a double jump, though, yes. Fluff that as you will.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    Good point. What would you suggest I do?
    Well, it's rounds/level, plus I've never really found having big hops overly broken, really. Yeah, you're hyper mobile but you're not exactly flying, since you can only jump in straight lines and you usually need a running start, which is plenty limiting.

    I did just notice the sprint clause, which means you have +600' move, which is +240 to jump. That part you might want to cut, as that's a bit much for a 1st level spell. I'd be less concerned with it if it was 2nd level with Leaps and Bounds, as Swift Fly and Master Air are online then as well.

    It can. Some DMs or players might not like the look of that, so I left it slightly unclear. It functions as a double jump, though, yes. Fluff that as you will.
    Neat! It'd make my old Thri-Kreen character cry tears, if he had tear ducts.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Well, it's rounds/level, plus I've never really found having big hops overly broken, really. Yeah, you're hyper mobile but you're not exactly flying, since you can only jump in straight lines and you usually need a running start, which is plenty limiting.

    I did just notice the sprint clause, which means you have +600' move, which is +240 to jump. That part you might want to cut, as that's a bit much for a 1st level spell. I'd be less concerned with it if it was 2nd level with Leaps and Bounds, as Swift Fly and Master Air are online then as well.
    You have to charge on a sprint, though, which might be a little limiting. Hm. I might just make burst of speed part of leaps and bounds, like you suggested.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Burst of speed makes me uneasy. Doubling the effect makes it dramatically more effective than expeditious retreat, and IMO reducing the duration simply doesn't adequately compensate. By the same token, however, it's not quite strong enough to make a decent 2nd level spell.

    Leaps and bounds is definitely worth a 3rd-level spell. two complementary 1st level spells cast with one action and one spell slot > one 2nd level spell. You wouldn't expect to get shield + mage armor or sleep + color spray for a 2nd level slot, and you shouldn't expect jump + expeditious retreat either.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Burst of speed makes me uneasy. Doubling the effect makes it dramatically more effective than expeditious retreat, and IMO reducing the duration simply doesn't adequately compensate. By the same token, however, it's not quite strong enough to make a decent 2nd level spell.

    Leaps and bounds is definitely worth a 3rd-level spell. two complementary 1st level spells cast with one action and one spell slot > one 2nd level spell. You wouldn't expect to get shield + mage armor or sleep + color spray for a 2nd level slot, and you shouldn't expect jump + expeditious retreat either.
    You're suggesting that having good jumping ability is the equivalent of flight?

    You may have a point on burst of speed. Like I said, I might combine the two. Then, I'd be happier with making it a 3rd-level spell.

    Thoughts on that?
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-09-04 at 07:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    I'd say that having a good jumping ability AND a doubled movement speed for 1 min/level is comparable. Flight beats jumping, the doubled speed beats fly in any situation where movement in the 3rd-dimension isn't important, or where the need for 3-D movement can be met with a good jump check. It's not as good as haste, but then again haste is considered one of the best 3rd-level spells.

    And jumping+doubled speed beats the pants off of levitate.


    Both in one spell...lemme think...tripled speed and +54 to Jump checks, but personal range only. Probably 1 min/level duration? OK, I could see that at 3rd level, yeah. It's better than haste or fly in some ways, but worse in other ways. And it's certainly not as good as spells like air walk or freedom of movement.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-09-04 at 10:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Leaps and Bounds [3.5 Spell Combination and New Spell]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    I'd say that having a good jumping ability AND a doubled movement speed for 1 min/level is comparable. Flight beats jumping, the doubled speed beats fly in any situation where movement in the 3rd-dimension isn't important, or where the need for 3-D movement can be met with a good jump check. It's not as good as haste, but then again haste is considered one of the best 3rd-level spells.

    And jumping+doubled speed beats the pants off of levitate.


    Both in one spell...lemme think...tripled speed and +54 to Jump checks, but personal range only. Probably 1 min/level duration? OK, I could see that at 3rd level, yeah. It's better than haste or fly in some ways, but worse in other ways. And it's certainly not as good as spells like air walk or freedom of movement.
    Good points, all.

    Leaps and bounds is now a single spell granting a +60-foot enhancement bonus to your land speed and a bonus to Jump based on caster level, like double expeditious retreat plus jump.
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