Improved Weapon Finesse (3.5 Feat)

[Oslecamo]

I could split it into three if everyone agrees that would be better.

Probably. Three feats starts to be a more fair price.

I dunno about the first part. Dex 20, which would require a +race at level 1 (Plus a flaw to get the second feat to actually take the second of these feats) gives you +5 armour. MEDIUM armour can give you +5 armour.

Chainmail gives you +5 bonus yes, but it costs 150 GP. Unless you're really lucky you can't afford that right at the begginning. You can only dream about fullplate untill you reach lv 3-4. Also racial Dex is easier to come by. Halfing, elves, goblins(air variant gives a whooping +4), kobolds. What LA 0 races gives extra strenght? Half orcs? Orcs? Water orcs are kinda good if you don't mind just being good at smashing stuff.

[Lix Lorn]

Hm. Good point.
How would you make them play out? I mean, they fall into two feats simply, but three is less easy.

[Zaydos]

Weapon Finesse: See PHB.

Improved Weapon Finesse:
Prerequisites: Dex 15+, BAB +3
Benefit: When wielding a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse you may also use Dex instead of Str for damage (except better worded)

Oversized Weapon Finesse:
Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Str 10+
Benefit: You may apply the benefits of Weapon Finesse and Improved Weapon Finesse to any weapon, not just light weapons and those especially marked.

Something like this. Still better than Shadow Blade which is already considered a good choice.

[Lix Lorn]

I'd remove the BAB requirements. I like that with my versions, a Rogue can actually fight from first level.

[Hyooz]

You do know the hoops people usually jump through to get something as good as Dex to damage right? One feat to make Dex the be-all-end-all of melee fighting is a little much.

[Zaydos]

With just Weapon Finesse a rogue can fight from 1st level. 20 Dex and Studded Leather Armor gives a halfling rogue 19 AC and a +6 to hit. Damage is low but with flanking you get 1d4+1d6 damage. Still lower than a half-orc's 2-hander (2d6+7 assuming 20 Str) but your AC will be noticeably better than such a character's 14 + Dex (average wealth is 150 GP for fighter less for barbarian, greatsword is 50 of that and then basic adventuring gear means that the fighter will be stuck with scale mail's +4 to AC, also won't have very good Dex with most point buys). The half-orc will have more damage (he'll one hit most anything at Lv 1) but you'll have much more survivability, and skills which balance it out. A +5 to a rogue's damage isn't needed at level one (average is 6 with sneak attack already, which is more than most CR 1/2 creatures; CR 1 are at least supposed to survive one-shots). Maybe reduce the BAB bonus to +2 so a 3rd level rogue can get it, but their damage is actually better in comparison at that level. Only when Power Attack really starts running is this feat needed and until then it is vastly superior (as Dex helps Ref saves, Initiative, hide, move silently, AC, etc), once Power Attack gets its game on this feat has competition but Power Attack is pretty much useless at level 1 (+2 damage isn't as good as +1 to hit at Lv 1 since you're one-hitting enemies regardless). It's at higher levels with Pounce and Leap Attack that Power Attacking becomes worth it, and that's when this feat is needed not before.

[Lix Lorn]

A rogue would have other feats they had to take anyway. With them as three feats, you need flaws to get the whole chain at level one. Or Human Fighter.

[Temotei]

A rogue would have other feats they had to take anyway. With them as three feats, you need flaws to get the whole chain at level one. Or Human Fighter.

On that note, placing BAB requirements on the other two feats wouldn't be a bad idea.

[DaddyMugi]

{Scrubbed}

[Zaydos]

{Scrubbed}

No because 1) that wouldn't be nice, 2) Dex to damage with finesse weapons does make some sense. I will not rant about katanas.

[Oslecamo]

A rogue would have other feats they had to take anyway. With them as three feats, you need flaws to get the whole chain at level one. Or Human Fighter.

On the other hand, rogues aren't suposed to be pure combat machines. Yes the orc fighter hits harder but the rogue can hide and snipe stuff with crossbows. They're quite effective at 1st level.

Plus sneak attack by itself is already meant to be "dexterity to damage" since it's suposed to be the rogue aiming at the soft parts of their oponents.

[PId6]

I see no problems with these feats, and honestly, I'd never ever take the second one. There's simply no reason to, since you'd get at best 1 or 2 extra damage from one-handed compared to light weapons, and Spiked Chain exists if you want to two-hand or get reach.

Ultimately, these give you a minor bit of extra damage and not much else. So what? A rogue that deals 10d6+20 extra damage already won't suddenly break the game with 4-5 more points of damage. There are still plenty of reasons to focus on strength, including tripping, grappling, and the ease of increasing it (via Rage, Frenzy, Expansion, etc).

[Lix Lorn]

On that note, placing BAB requirements on the other two feats wouldn't be a bad idea.

:/
I really, really don't like that Weapon Finesse requires BAB. None of the classes that sterotypically use it (Rogue, bard...) can take it until third level.

[Hyooz]

:/
I really, really don't like that Weapon Finesse requires BAB. None of the classes that sterotypically use it (Rogue, bard...) can take it until third level.

And? Sometimes you have to wait for nice things.

[PId6]

And? Sometimes you have to wait for nice things.

BAB requirement on Weapon Finesse is one of the most idiotic design decisions in the game. The very types of characters who want the feat won't be able to satisfy the requirement, and their entire combat styles hinge on it. Forcing entire classes to suck for 2 levels at the beginning before they can finally be competent (and not even all that strong, just competent) is NOT good game design.

In fact, Weapon Finesse should never have been a feat; it should have been a default combat style to begin with (just like TWF should have been). The philosophy of mundane characters having to spend feats on everything they could want to do is one of the many reasons why 3.5 casters are leagues beyond non-casters. In the end, all that does is punish out-of-the-ordinary character concepts.

[Temotei]

BAB requirement on Weapon Finesse is one of the most idiotic design decisions in the game. The very types of characters who want the feat won't be able to satisfy the requirement, and their entire combat styles hinge on it. Forcing entire classes to suck for 2 levels at the beginning before they can finally be competent (and not even all that strong, just competent) is NOT good game design.

In fact, Weapon Finesse should never have been a feat; it should have been a default combat style to begin with (just like TWF should have been). The philosophy of mundane characters having to spend feats on everything they could want to do is one of the many reasons why 3.5 casters are leagues beyond non-casters. In the end, all that does is punish out-of-the-ordinary character concepts.

Well said. It's only one level until you get it, though.

+0, +1, +2, +3, +3, +4...

[PId6]

Well said. It's only one level until you get it, though.

Only if you get a bonus feat at 2nd level, which normal rogues/bards do not.

[Temotei]

Only if you get a bonus feat at 2nd level, which normal rogues/bards do not.

Poor pure rogues.

The only feats that should exist to do what Weapon Finesse does are the ones that work for other abilities, like Zen Archery for Wisdom to ranged rolls and the homebrew swashbuckler class feature-feat for Intelligence...

[Oslecamo]

In the end, all that does is punish out-of-the-ordinary character concepts.

I would like a character that can kill a fully armored trained warrior by staring at them with their eyes. Or bludeon trough his armor with a teddy bear (actualy doable with ToB but even then not at lv1). Or stand upside down on one finger while singing and spinning despite my physical stats sucking wich will somehow make my oponent get dizzy and colapse. Should the system support those "out-of-the-ordinary" character concepts out of the bat?

Or should the more exotic fighting styles actualy be harder to achieve? Specially when in the case of Dex-based warrior they come with a lot of extra perks like better AC, iniative, built-in stealth and ranged combat, just as good at resisting trips and grapple as the str-based build? The last two inferior tactics anyway as bigger monsters laugh at them, while a dex based warrior can sneak trough the huge golem and snipe the leviathan from a safe distance?

[PId6]

I would like a character that can kill a fully armored trained warrior by staring at them with their eyes. Or bludeon trough his armor with a teddy bear (actualy doable with ToB but even then not at lv1). Or stand upside down on one finger while singing and spinning despite my physical stats sucking wich will somehow make my oponent get dizzy and colapse. Should the system support those "out-of-the-ordinary" character concepts out of the bat?

By "Out of the ordinary" combat styles, I meant every combat style besides the main one. The main combat style, in this case, is max Str two-handed melee fighting. Every combat style besides that are either feat-taxed heavily (Weapon Finesse, TWF, archery), or just plain suck by default (unarmed, sword-and-board). This isn't just completely weird character concepts like a teddy bear smacker; these include numerous archetypical fantasy styles that should be just as viable as the main one.

Or should the more exotic fighting styles actualy be harder to achieve? Specially when in the case of Dex-based warrior they come with a lot of extra perks like better AC, iniative, built-in stealth and ranged combat, just as good at resisting trips and grapple as the str-based build? The last two inferior tactics anyway as bigger monsters laugh at them, while a dex based warrior can sneak trough the huge golem and snipe the leviathan from a safe distance?

They're actually significantly worse at grapples than Str-based characters, since grapple only care about Str (and the minor boost to touch AC isn't going to change the "miss only on natural 1" attack bonuses of most monsters). In addition, Dex-based ones have a harder time increasing Dex (Rage, Expansion, and similar can boost Str massively without much effort), and are more MAD and still more feat-expensive if they want to Power Attack (need 13 Str, need EWP: Spiked Chain or similar).

Besides, these feats don't improve Dex-based combat much at all. Weapon Finesse already exists. Spiked Chain already exists. Shadow Blade already exists. Besides Dex to damage without needing to spend on Shadow Blade, what else does it do? The minor damage boost is negligible at higher levels, and rogues/TWF rangers haven't been winning any awards for power lately.

[Oslecamo]

By "Out of the ordinary" combat styles, I meant every combat style besides the main one. The main combat style, in this case, is max Str two-handed melee fighting. Every combat style besides that are either feat-taxed heavily (Weapon Finesse, TWF, archery), or just plain suck by default (unarmed, sword-and-board). This isn't just completely weird character concepts like a teddy bear smacker; these include numerous archetypical fantasy styles that should be just as viable as the main one.

Sword and board it's quite effective at low levels when enemies drop from a single longsword blow. It keeps being effective if you face hordes of mooks instead of some big monsters.

Unarmed is a romantic concept more than anything. Pointy sticks are superior to naked fists, point, let alone magic pointy sticks from exotic materials. Even Journey to the West has the local kung fu genius smashing his way trough with a two-handed weapon.

Meanwhile big two handed weapon is also feat starved as you need power attack and then all the uber charge stuff.

They're actually significantly worse at grapples than Str-based characters, since grapple only care about Str (and the minor boost to touch AC isn't going to change the "miss only on natural 1" attack bonuses of most monsters).

Escape artist, making rogues escape big monsters since 2000. Also handy when you're tied up after being captured, squeezing trough tight passages and even walls of force if you get it high enough.

In addition, Dex-based ones have a harder time increasing Dex (Rage, Expansion, and similar can boost Str massively without much effort),

There's a rage variant that boosts Dex. There's a cleric spell that gives out a flat +10 to Dex. There's plenty of polymorph forms with obscene Dex. They're just less known because people are used to look for Str boosters.

and are more MAD and still more feat-expensive if they want to Power Attack (need 13 Str, need EWP: Spiked Chain or similar).

Str builds also need Dex for some AC and combat reflexes. And spiked chain is the best melee weapon for both sides.

Besides, these feats don't improve Dex-based combat much at all. Weapon Finesse already exists. Spiked Chain already exists. Shadow Blade already exists.

And like already pointed out costs either a level and a feat or three feats, and then needing to always use a shaddow hand stance, wich locks you from more usefull ToB stances.

Besides Dex to damage without needing to spend on Shadow Blade, what else does it do? The minor damage boost is negligible at higher levels

Think higher. With this a rogue can pick up a lance and start stacking lance mounted charge multipliers while being dex based.

and rogues/TWF rangers haven't been winning any awards for power lately.

Oh they have. TWF rogues are always poping everywhere. I remember a challenge to make effective characters with the elite array whitout magic cheese. I won it with a whisper gnome fully focused on Dex.

[PId6]

Sword and board it's quite effective at low levels when enemies drop from a single longsword blow. It keeps being effective if you face hordes of mooks instead of some big monsters.

Being useful at levels 1-2 isn't the best recommendation for a particular combat style. At CR 3, you have Medium Air Elementals with 26 HP, Dire Apes with 35 HP, and Ghasts with 29 HP (random examples). 1d8+4 damage isn't going to kill any of those too easily.

Besides, if you're facing hordes of mooks, you're better off with a two-hander and Cleave, so you've a good chance of dropping two (or more) enemies every round. The +2 AC from having a shield is just so worthless compared to the better damage you can have from a two-hander (and Animated shields at higher levels further this gap).

Meanwhile big two handed weapon is also feat starved as you need power attack and then all the uber charge stuff.

Two-handed comes with its own source of damage though, unlike Finesse TWF. With THF, you can splash levels of fighter for feats, splash barbarian for Rage, splash warblade for maneuvers, or whatever. With TWF you're stuck with classes that provide precision damage, since you don't get a default source of damage from the feats you're taking.

So it's a question of needing feats vs needing feats + class levels. Which one do you think wins out?

Escape artist, making rogues escape big monsters since 2000. Also handy when you're tied up after being captured, squeezing trough tight passages and even walls of force if you get it high enough.

Escape artist is just terrible. For one thing, you have to max ranks in it to be worth anything, and rogues are already skill-starved as is. There are no size modifiers, so being small won't help you squeeze out, while being big lets the baddies hold you much easier. It also doesn't prevent grapples, only applying when trying to get out of it, and it takes a standard action to use. That means that a monster who Improved Grabs you every turn can lock you down completely since you need to spend all your actions getting out. Escape Artist is just a horrible "defense" against grapple.

There's a rage variant that boosts Dex. There's a cleric spell that gives out a flat +10 to Dex. There's plenty of polymorph forms with obscene Dex. They're just less known because people are used to look for Str boosters.

There's no Rage variant to do it that I can find. If you mean Whirling Frenzy, nope, doesn't boost Dex, just dodge AC/Ref saves. Divine Agility is a 5th level cleric spell, meaning it takes 9 levels of cleric to get working, unlike the 1 level of PsyWar or Barbarian. If you UMD it, that gets very expensive and even somewhat risky (since the check is quite high for a scroll). And it's an enhancement bonus, so it doesn't stack with Gloves of Dexterity, meaning it only really gives you +4 at best.

As for Polymorph, that's banned or heavily frowned upon in most campaigns I've seen, and if you're turning into a high-Dex creature, you're not turning into a 12-headed hydra.

Str builds also need Dex for some AC and combat reflexes. And spiked chain is the best melee weapon for both sides.

You are right on this one, though it is an extra feat's difference still. Combat Reflexes and Spiked Chain are only used on control builds too, rather than straight out ubercharging. AC isn't needed when Shock Trooper sends it through the floor anyway.

And like already pointed out costs either a level and a feat or three feats, and then needing to always use a shaddow hand stance, wich locks you from more usefull ToB stances.

The point was that everything you could want already exists; this simply makes it slightly easier to get (one feat less, to be precise). Assassin's Stance is already coveted by every rogue ever, so that's no problem.

Think higher. With this a rogue can pick up a lance and start stacking lance mounted charge multipliers while being dex based.

So... you've spent a bunch of feats, used up gold (or feat) for a mount that won't die to every Fireball, managed to find a battlefield that you can actually use a mount on, and still only managed to make a single attack? Even with charge multipliers, you can do way better with full attacking via TWF than a single attack with lance since Sneak Attack isn't multiplied. It's also a lot more difficult to maneuver for flanks when charging on a mount, so actually getting SA off is an issue.

Oh they have. TWF rogues are always poping everywhere. I remember a challenge to make effective characters with the elite array whitout magic cheese. I won it with a whisper gnome fully focused on Dex.

They're strong, but not the strongest. Str-based ubercharging will always deal more damage. PsyWars and ToB characters are more versatile and usually more powerful as well. Duskblades can probably deal more damage, while Factotums and Beguilers are more versatile out-of-combat. And of course they're nothing compared to T2 or T1 full casters.

[Jane_Smith]

-shrug- Ive been using 'incredible finesse' in all my games for two-weapon fighter types, and allowing players to use it in games I run. If a dm doesnt like it, I just leave. And, no, dex to damage isnt that powerful - IF you limit it to the same weapons that weapon finesse normally applies to.

Light weapons like shortswords, or weapons like scimitars, arnt really that massively overpowered with +5-+6 damage at level 3-5. Spiked chain? Ha. If you were a -real- spiked chain user, you wouldnt "CARE" about damage. You would be boosting your reach and your movement speed somehow and kiting the hell out of anything you fight. If your focusing on raw damage, your doing it wrong.

However, most dm's usually allow my 'incredible finesse' to stack with str bonus damage to light/etc weapons - but things that are immune to critical hits/sneak attacks are also immune to that bonus damage. So... ya, trying to nimbly assault a ghost with a dagger isnt nessicarly going to do you any favors. :P

[Andion Isurand]

I would like to see the Insightful Strike ability of the swashbuckler made into a feat... with the damage bonus from Intelligence modifier capped by your Dexterity modifier. Where finesse meets the knowledge of proper placement.

But as far as the heavy weapons go... just because its balanced mechanically, doesn't mean it's done in good taste. I think these feats blur the distinctions between two fighting spheres a bit too much.

[Temotei]

I would like to see the Insightful Strike ability of the swashbuckler made into a feat... with the damage bonus from Intelligence modifier capped by your Dexterity modifier. Where finesse meets the knowledge of proper placement.

Minus the last part, someone made insightful strike into Insightful Strike not too long ago.

Here.

[Andion Isurand]

Yeah, I saw it, its just that some feel the add X to Y stuff is somewhat unfair, and I figured if the Int bonus to damage were limited by your Dex ability to get the weapon to a vital spot... that it would help balance by making the feat more MAD.

Of course, since the ability exists as it does for the swashbuckler, thats fine also. Personally I'm fine with either incarnation of Insightful Strike.

[Lix Lorn]

But as far as the heavy weapons go... just because its balanced mechanically, doesn't mean it's done in good taste. I think these feats blur the distinctions between two fighting spheres a bit too much.

I still think that trying to apply reality in the world of d&d is fruitless. But I know many disagree.

I also think that anyone who abuses this feat-axes WOULD be very hard to use dextuously-needs a very, very good excuse.

[Hyooz]

I still think that trying to apply reality in the world of d&d is fruitless. But I know many disagree.

I also think that anyone who abuses this feat-axes WOULD be very hard to use dextuously-needs a very, very good excuse.

... why? You just contradicted yourself. On one hand, applying reality to DnD is fruitless and we shouldn't bother with it.

On the other, Mr. Dextrous Axe guy needs a good reason he can do these things beyond the mechanics being there, and super easy to get.

[Ashtagon]

It may or may not be balanced (but instinct says no, since Dexterity is already a very powerful ability). But it fails on a more important test: "Is this what ability X is supposed to be able to do?" I know there is a lot of ability sloshing to going on in homebrew, and even in raw to a certain extent, but I like the feel that Strength and Dexterity actually refer to different attributes, and aren't just numbers to be shifted around to suit the needs of char-op. Character concept shouldn't just be and feats and class levels; it should be reflected in his abilities too.

[Spiryt]

I also think that anyone who abuses this feat-axes WOULD be very hard to use dextuously-needs a very, very good excuse.

WHY?

If axes, why not maces, halberds, hammers of whatever?

Have you ever fought with axe? Or did anything with it?

Why shouldn't guy trying to fight with axe benefit from

hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance

Seriously, the whole premise behind weapon finesse is, like I said, RETARDED.

You can fight 'finessely' with kukri, but I guess you can only rise longsword up to bring it down as hard as you can....

Feats like that are pretty okay, good way to give players some choice, although in ideal game, both strength and dexterity should contribute to melee attack IMO.