TGGWAT Round 6: Vinlauk Vs Nero

[ARabidHobo]

I hope that wasn't an interpretation of my fluff as a strategic move. I didn't mean that I "forfeited" my turn, I meant I was waiting IRL time before I made my move. sorry if there is confusion, but your new actions confuse me.

[ex cathedra]

Of course not. They were legal actions on my part; your turn has yet to begin. I'll inform you when I finish all of my actions, I'm sorry for being vague in previous posts. I'm considering waiting for nefele to resolve my last actions, since they potentially involve actions that you can't see. If anything, I'll wait before moving on just in case I made further mistakes.

[ARabidHobo]

Alright. Your vagueness does produce the desired effect strategic effect, I think. I don't know just what you are doing, so instead I am working off of partial information. However, it does make it rather difficult to guess what you're doing so I can respond properly (fluff-wise at least, but also legally). The confusion is what makes this tactic focused, methinks.

[nefele]

aethernox:

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I should have mentioned that earlier. I should have included it in Rulings and Clarifications. And I should have alerted you the minute I saw your char sheet. (Basically, I did this via PM with another player - and not you, as I erroneously remembered. )

White Raven Tactics doesn't work on oneself. In fact, neither does any of the White Raven maneuvers which say "an ally" - instead of "you or an ally", like so many other maneuvers in ToB.

You can, of course, change your maneuver selection now. Also, if you want to speed things up, you can keep your actions, but using Belt of Battle instead of White Raven Tactics.

I would be very pissed off if I were you, so I will understand if you start yelling. Still, I wouldn't worry about your build at all. :)

both:

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Nero's second try was illegal, but it's not his fault. He based his actions on a notoriously ambiguous rule, which I failed to clarify like I should - at least to him.

We let him finish his turn for Round 2 (because he still hasn't), and move on.

ARabidHobo:

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As long as Nero is hiding successfully, you can make out his position (the shadow thing), but he has total concealment: that's a 50% miss chance from all your attacks. Also, as long as he hides while attacking, you are flat-footed against his attacks. This means that you would lose your Dex to AC if you hadn't uncanny dodge. But you do.

If he is not hiding, but remains within that weird sphere of shadowy illumination, he has concealment. That's a 20% miss chance, and you are not flat-footed against his attacks.

Also, I understand your confusion about this round, but I can assure you that aethernox is an honest player. His actions were illegal after all, but since I didn't clarify it in time, he had every reason to believe in good faith that they were completely legal. :)

[ex cathedra]

nefele:

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So, this is probably the first ruling that actually bothers me. I'm sorry, but this seems like a highly relevant houserule that should have been clarified some time ago, and the fact that you failed to mention this when I submitted my sheet seems a bit... in poor faith.

You are aware that using White Raven Tactics on oneself is a perfectly legitimate maneuver, because the PHB defines an ally as "a creature friend to you. in most cases, references to "allies" include yourself," yes? Since WRT doesn't explicitly state that you can't target yourself, there are no legitimate grounds for interpreting the second half of that definition to prevent WRT from functioning. Couple that with the fact that WRT received no errata (though bringing up ToB errata is fairly pointless, in and of itself) and you're beyond the point of ambiguity. Either WRT works as printed, or you're stealth-nerfing in an arena setting, which seems like a poor way to do things.

The fact that this is primarily a one-on-one arena also means that if you can't use it on yourself, it is almost completely non-functional, and by allowing it during character creation but disallowing it during actual play you put players in rather awkward positions.

I'm sorry of any of this seems overly harsh. I will exchange WRT for Iron Heart Surge, or something. If you have any un-written interpretations of that, I should probably hear them, as well.* I'm going to assume that I qualify for it. If I don't, I'll just leave the maneuver expended. I don't know of any other relevant maneuvers that I qualify for, and I honestly don't really care. I'll expend the charges from my belt of battle to receive the full attack that I posted, as you suggest. I probably should have done it manually to receive better rolls, but abusing the RNG isn't really what I'm here for. This leaves me at the end of my previous actions without a further swift action, rendering me action-less, and so I will pass my turn.

*I'm teasing you. Still, the majority of my post was in a more serious nature. As a player, I honestly feel a bit deceived. I'm not overly bothered about it, but I still think that this is a bad way for you to handle things of this nature. Would you like me to ask my opponent for a spot check, and do my best to post my actions, or would you like to handle this, since it likely involves actions my opponent cannot see?

Edit: I'll ask you to ignore that. It was a bit immature, to be honest.

[nefele]

aethernox:

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by allowing it during character creation but disallowing it during actual play you put players in rather awkward positions.

I know. It's an awful thing to do. The reason it happened is that I (stupidly) remembered explaining all about WR in a PM, and was left with the satisfactory feeling that I did my job. Except that the PM wasn't to you, and I didn't recheck your maneuvers after the first time, and most importantly, I didn't post it publicly...

This wasn't an excuse. I don't have an excuse. It was merely an explanation. I could also explain why I believe that WR allies should not include you, despite the famous "ally" definition, though that's besides the point, I think.

But what should I do now? Correct a mistake with a mistake? RAW and RAI and RAMS aside, allowing WRT to affect the player means that Warblades now have a Belt of Battle on drugs, usable once every two rounds. This completely breaks a game based on action economy. I understand your position and I acknowledge that the mistake was mine. But do you understand my position?
:(

Would you like me to ask my opponent for a spot check, and do my best to post my actions, or would you like to handle this, since it likely involves actions my opponent cannot see?

That is true as long as you remember to use the (new...) Rules Compendium rules which allow you to attack while attacking WITHOUT the -20 penalty. :) So either post your actions again or keep the previous ones, it's up to you.

Thank you for accepting this despite the, err.. bad taste it leaves. I apologize again.

[ex cathedra]

nefele:

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But what should I do now? Correct a mistake with a mistake? RAW and RAI and RAMS aside, allowing WRT to affect the player means that Warblades now have a Belt of Battle on drugs, usable once every two rounds. This completely breaks a game based on action economy. I understand your position and I acknowledge that the mistake was mine. But do you understand my position?
:(

To be fair, I think you know that that's irrelevant in this format, which is almost complete rocket-tag. If anything, Warblade builds that get extra full attacks every two rounds would at least make matches last more than two rounds. It might matter if the warblade had multiple targets to attack, but the amount of characters that should survive two warblade full attacks at ECL15 is so low that it's almost negligible. I think you should either ban white raven tactics outright, allow it to be used once per combat, or whatever else you can think up. I think that the point is that you should make it plainly aware to involved players, but we're at the point where that's irrelevant.

That is true as long as you remember to use the (new...) Rules Compendium rules which allow you to attack while attacking WITHOUT the -20 penalty. :) So either post your actions again or keep the previous ones, it's up to you.

I don't even know what this means. Honestly, though, I'm not sure what you're saying, or if this answers my question at all. My actions are the same, with the obvious caveat that is replacing WRT with my Belt charges. I was wondering if I'm supposed to handle explaining attacks that my opponent isn't aware of, or if you are. I don't mind, I just don't want to involve myself in a facet that you're expected to take care of.

Thank you for accepting this despite the, err.. bad taste it leaves. I apologize again.

No worries.

[nefele]

aethernox:

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When I wrote "attack while attacking" I meant "attack while hiding". Stress produces typos, scientists say.

My actions are the same, with the obvious caveat that is replacing WRT with my Belt charges. I was wondering if I'm supposed to handle explaining attacks that my opponent isn't aware of, or if you are. I don't mind, I just don't want to involve myself in a facet that you're expected to take care.

No, I'll take it from here. Thanks again.

[ex cathedra]

nefele:

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No problem. Also, was it just me or did we both forget the -2 penalty to attacks that the environment imposes on my first attack?

If it was just me, sorry again. This map has a lot going on.

[nefele]

ROUND 2, Nero's turn, cont.

After attacking and tripping the Goliath, Nero immediately hides again (total concealment). And then be bursts to activity again, this time still hiding. His boomerang comes and goes 4 times, and strikes thrice. The attacks are Vs Vilnauk's Touch AC+4 (since he's prone).

Attacks:
45, hits, damage 14 bludgeoning
38, hits, damage 14 bludgeoning
34, hits, damage 15 bludgeoning
26, misses

aethernox:

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The attack results should be visible even if you aren't. Also, no sneak attack applies.
EDIT: The -2 penalty from the wind at the previous attack didn't affect the outcome.

hobo:

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With DR, you take 40 damage total.

Vilnauk must make 3 Fortitude saves, Vs DC 24, 24 and 25 respectively, or become Dazed for one round. Nero remains hidden (total concealment).

Nero's turn ends.

[ARabidHobo]

Rolls

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(1d20+17)[30](1d20+17)[22](1d20+17)[18] 3 rolls against dazing, each respective in order.

Alas! Vinlauk has been confused by his bludgeoning!
Stat Block

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ac 38, 28 touch (no flat, uncanny dodge)
hp 101 (-40 from 'rang) this time and -2 from flames of the sun
fort 17 will 21 refl 19
2 rage left, 7 rounds left this time (after turn ends)

[nefele]

Vinlauk cannot take actions during Round 2. He effectively loses his turn.

ROUND 3, Nero's turn.

[ex cathedra]

Actions/Rolls:

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Nero will full attack using Rapid Shot and Weak Spot while Hiding.
Hide : (d20+22)[23]
Attacks:
(d20+27)[35]
(d20+27)[35]
(d20+22)[39]
(d20+17)[19]
All attacks receive +4 (from my Bracers and Able Sniper) if he's flat-footed. They are also touch attacks.
All attacks receive an unlisted -2 due to the arena. My opponent receives +4 to AC because he is prone.

Damage:
Attack 1 : (1d3+10)[12]
Sneak Attack 1 : (9d5+24)[58] + 2 Strength Damage
Attack 2 : (1d3+10)[13]
Sneak Attack 2 : (9d5+24)[42] + 2 Strength Damage
Attack 3 : (1d3+10)[11]
Sneak Attack 3 : (9d5+24)[51] + 2 Strength Damage
Attack 4 : (1d3+10)[12]
Sneak Attack 4 : (9d5+24)[58] + 2 Strength Damage
All attacks receive +2 damage if he's flat-footed. Each attack triggers the same save against Daze.

Sniping Check: (d20+36)[50]

I end my turn.

[nefele]

Hobo: roll a spot check please.

[ARabidHobo]

Roll

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(1d20+19)[36]spot check. includes -2 from sandstorm.

[nefele]

ROUND 2, Nero's turn, cont.

Rinse, repeat. Still hiding, Nero's boomerang comes and goes 4 times, and strikes thrice. The attacks are Vs Vilnauk's Touch AC+4 (since he's prone).

Attacks:
35, hits, damage 12 bludgeoning
35, hits, damage 13 bludgeoning
39, hits, damage 11 bludgeoning
19, misses

aethernox:

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Vinlauk was not flat-footed Vs these attacks.

hobo:

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With DR, you take 33 damage total.
You pass your spot check Vs Nero's hide while attacking, and can see him doing all that. He's still at AM12, with concealment (20% miss chance). Then he attempts to hide again, and this time your spot check fails automatically. At the start of your turn, he has successfully hidden again (though you can see the shadow thingy at the same square) and has total concealment.

Vilnauk must make 3 Fortitude saves, Vs DC 22, 23 and 21 respectively, or become Dazed for one round. Nero remains hidden.

Nero's turn ends.

[ARabidHobo]

Rolls

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(1d20+17)[26](1d20+17)[29](1d20+17)[19] 3 fort saves in a row

The spinning stick just does something to Vinlauk's mind, it seems. Another dazed round.

Stat block

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ac 38, 28 touch (no flat, uncanny dodge)
hp 66 (-35 from last turn)
fort 17 will 21 refl 19
2 rage left, 6 rounds left this time (after turn ends)

[nefele]

Round 2 ends.

ROUND 3, Nero's turn.

[ex cathedra]

Actions/Rolls:

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Nero will full attack using Rapid Shot and Weak Spot while Hiding.
Hide : (d20+22)[39]
Attacks:
(d20+27)[41]
(d20+27)[29]
(d20+22)[28]
(d20+17)[28]
All attacks receive +4 (from my Bracers and Able Sniper) if he's flat-footed. They are also touch attacks.
All attacks receive an unlisted -2 due to the arena. My opponent receives +4 to AC because he is prone.

Damage:
Attack 1 : (d3+10)[13]
Attack 2 : (d3+10)[13]
Attack 3 : (d3+10)[11]
Attack 4 : (d3+10)[13]

All attacks receive +2 damage if he's flat-footed. Each attack triggers the same save against Daze.

Sniping Check: (d20+36)[54]

I should have put more effort into this character. I end my turn.

I'm going to need a spot check, regardless, and I have 4 attacks coming.

Attacks, still against touch AC +4:
41, presumably hits, for 13 damage.
29, presumable miss.
28, presumable miss.
28, presumable miss.

Successful hits still cause a fort save versus daze.

If I'm wrong anywhere, let me know.
Otherwise, I am done.

[nefele]

Hobo needs to make a spot check again.

aethernox:

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Two other duels are starting, and now would be a good time to start putting some things outside the spoilers. :)

Hide roll: no
Request a spot check: yes
Attack roll: yes
Damage roll: yes
Make a fort save: yes
Save DC: not necessarily, but you explained the formula on Round 1, so he should already know

I'm here to help, but due to the other duels I might take some time. This will help speed things up a bit. :)

[ARabidHobo]

Those presumptions look right to me. I'll roll for the save at the same time as the spot.
Rolls

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(1d20+19)[26]Spot
(1d20+17)[27] Fort (vs DC 23) Whoop!

Looks like I'll be standing this round, pending correction or further events this turn.

[nefele]

Yeap, correct.

ROUND 3, Vilnauk's turn

[ARabidHobo]

Vinlauk stands up and attempts to hide from the blasted boomerang by ducking behind a dune (no actual hiding, just trying to break LoS)
DM

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I'd like to be behind the dune (steep slope area) if this prevents Nero from seeing me. For movement, if you want to say the dune is box like then I jump to ae13 and proceed south to ae16 (shouldn't need a roll for that, but here's one anyway (1d20+50)[69]). If LoS is further south, I proceed to the point I need to break it +15 ft. Basically, I want to spend the round I recover from me being floored out of sight. Ideal placing is ae 16-17.
Stats

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ac 38, 28 touch (no flat, uncanny dodge)
hp 52 (-14 from last turn; 12 'rang, 2 fire)
fort 17 will 21 refl 19
2 rage left, 5 rounds left this time (after turn ends)

Edit: I forgot to add rage str to my jump modifier. Moot point, but I noticed.

[nefele]

hobo:

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You end up in AE17 and this is on the steep slope, 10 ft above ground. You had to jump high as well as far to go there, but of course you pass automatically.

EDIT - No LoS currently.

ROUND 3 ends.

[nefele]

aethernox:

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Sorry for the vagueness. Vilnauk ducked behind the dune, as he said. Last time you saw him he was airborn (jumping) at AG-12, and then he disappeared behind the dune, so no LoS. (He isn't hiding, he just has total cover).

[ex cathedra]

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Nero surreptitiously moves to AG10, seeking out his opponent.
Hide: (d20+37)[53]
Move Silently: (d20+34)[49]

[ex cathedra]

As I've posted in the main thread, I have withdrawn this character, and therefore I concede the match; considering how long it has been, I doubt that anyone minds.