warblade/wu jen/jade pheonix mage, help please?

[Rad]

Battle sorcerer is a trap!
Really, if you are building a gish you won't take many levels and one point of BAB is nothing compared to more spells known. Casting in light armor is also duplicated much more easily by armor special qualities like mithral or twilight that bring the ASF down to 0%. I would go with Wu-Jen all the way!

BTW: will you ever get to the high teen levels? Most campaigns I played in ended or fell apart way before that. Even so, you might talk your DM in taking Abjurant Chapion levels after you finish JPM. Or vice versa.

Just my 2cp

[DanReiv]

I dislike battle sorc as well, and find warblade/wu jen/JPM to be both good and fitting the fluff.

You can have the armor when you start btw.

+1 mithril twilight chain shirt cost 5250 gold for +5AC, +6 Max Dex, 0 Penalty, 0% ASF.

8th level spells would be warblade3/wu-jen7/JPM10.

I'd start wujen4/warblade1 since your party is lacking an arcanist, and to put the armor to good use from the start.

Edit : If you really want some ancestral daisho of sort you should take a look at the ancestral relic feat from BoED rather than a dip in samurai.

You're good, lvl5, and has enough money to buy a masterwork weapon of your choice.

[Pechvarry]

Just to toss this out there:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144226

Basically, when I was building my warblade/wu jen/JPM, I realized that if you can get 7th level spells, you can cast Body Outside Body, getting a bunch of clones. Each of these clones technically have all of your class features and feats -- including spells prepared. They simply are unable to cast spells. This means that while you can explode in a ball of fire once per week, so can every single clone you make. They can also feasibly blow all their spell levels on Arcane Strike, the similar class feature of JPMs, and the Abjurant Champion abilities if you can get to level 4 in that class. Finally, I don't see a reason they can't initiate maneuvers. This gets pretty gross if you have White Raven Tactics.

For extra fun, grab the Trickery Domain. Each of your clones creates a 2nd generation clone.

[SylvanPrincess]

I dislike battle sorc as well, and find warblade/wu jen/JPM to be both good and fitting the fluff.

You can have the armor when you start btw.

+1 mithril twilight chain shirt cost 5250 gold for +5AC, +6 Max Dex, 0 Penalty, 0% ASF.

8th level spells would be warblade3/wu-jen7/JPM10.

I'd start wujen4/warblade1 since your party is lacking an arcanist, and to put the armor to good use from the start.

Edit : If you really want some ancestral daisho of sort you should take a look at the ancestral relic feat from BoED rather than a dip in samurai.

You're good, lvl5, and has enough money to buy a masterwork weapon of your choice.

i know what your saying, and i like wu jen a LOT, but i also like that extra 18 hp from the battle sorc. also like that it isnt a learned spellcasting class, but is instead spontaneous.

the thing i feel wu jen has going for it completely is its 'elemental mastery: fire' for +2 caster level on fire spells, combined with the phoenix mage's +1, then +3, = +6 fire caster level!

now, what weapon should i get with 2700 gp left (i spent 6300 on my armor- a twilight mithril brestplate)

[TaintedLight]

i know what your saying, and i like wu jen a LOT, but i also like that extra 18 hp from the battle sorc. also like that it isnt a learned spellcasting class, but is instead spontaneous.

the thing i feel wu jen has going for it completely is its 'elemental mastery: fire' for +2 caster level on fire spells, combined with the phoenix mage's +1, then +3, = +6 fire caster level!

now, what weapon should i get with 2700 gp left (i spent 6300 on my armor- a twilight mithril brestplate)

2700 leaves you with enough money for a +1 weapon. That's about it. A +1 weapon costs 2000 (+1 enhancement total) + 300 (masterwork) +base cost of the weapon, so the biggest choice is the base weapon's type. I'll take this opportunity to shamelessly plug Greater Mighty Wallop and suggest a two handed bludgeoning weapon like a greatclub since you can cast 3rd level spells. Only do that if you go with Wizard or Sorcerer, though. Wu Jen don't get that spell.

[SylvanPrincess]

so a keen mw european greatsword? very soul blade looking

so then if i do go wizard, is the domain wizard worth looking into? and working with the dm to make an arcane travel domain?

[TaintedLight]

so a keen mw european greatsword? very soul blade looking

Technically speaking, you cannot have a keen weapon that is not also a +1 weapon. In other words, the lowest priced keen weapon is a +1 keen weapon (+2 enhancement bonus) which is 8000 +mwk weapon price. I know plenty of DMs who waive this rule though, allowing for normal flaming longswords that are only flaming and not +1, so ask your DM what their policy is. If any old weapon is available and all you can get is +1, the greatsword is a fine choice.

[SylvanPrincess]

Technically speaking, you cannot have a keen weapon that is not also a +1 weapon. In other words, the lowest priced keen weapon is a +1 keen weapon (+2 enhancement bonus) which is 8000 +mwk weapon price. I know plenty of DMs who waive this rule though, allowing for normal flaming longswords that are only flaming and not +1, so ask your DM what their policy is. If any old weapon is available and all you can get is +1, the greatsword is a fine choice.

see i always thought the rule was that the weapon only had to be masterwork in order to enchant it?

[TaintedLight]

see i always thought the rule was that the weapon only had to be masterwork in order to enchant it?

Close. All magic weapons are automatically masterwork.

[SylvanPrincess]

Close. All magic weapons are automatically masterwork.

oh *crestfallen*

[TaintedLight]

oh *crestfallen*

Like I said, a lot of groups waive that whole rule, so see if your DM will. I like the vicious property personally. A nice damage bonus with a drawback for fun.

[SylvanPrincess]

so then, as i said earlier, if i go wizard, is the domain wizard variant worth checking out? maybe with a travel domain?

[TaintedLight]

so then, as i said earlier, if i go wizard, is the domain wizard variant worth checking out? maybe with a travel domain?

I never used that particular variant, but I've found a great deal of success in playing a Focused Specialist (ACF from CMag) in transmutation when I do gishes. Transmutation has all the buffs like haste and fly, plus some other sexy stuff at higher levels. All the Heart of X from CMag and Bite of the Y from SpC are also Trans.

[DeltaEmil]

You could just spend three feats. Martial Study twice, giving you some skills as class skills, which is always nice, and Martial Stance once. Then you'd not lose too many spellcasting levels.

[SylvanPrincess]

im not losing any sc levels though... *confused*

i need to decide asap between wu jen and specialist wizard :(

plus i really want it to be spontaneous caster, for flavor

[DeltaEmil]

Normally, if you multi-class as a spell-caster, you have to take levels that do not advance your spellcasting abilities.
So if you started as a level 4 wizard and had to take three levels in warblade to qualify for jade phoenix mage at the next level-up (only an example), that means you only cast spells as well as a level 4 wizard, having then only access to level 2 spells (stuff like glitterdust, alter self, misdirection).
Another character with 7 levels purely in wizards would get and cast the good and powerful level 4 spells (wall of fire, black tentacle, charm monster).

By taking feats instead of taking 1 or 2 warblade levels for qualifying for jade phoenix mage (assuming that this is correct), you keep advancing in your spellcasting levels without delay.

Or in that case, to become a jade phoenix mage (you need to know two martial maneuvers, including one strike, and a stance, while being able to cast 2nd-level arcane spell), you have to either take 5 levels wizard and 1 level warblade, 4 level wizard and 2 level warblade, 3 level wizards and 3 level warblade, or 6 level wizard with 3 feats (or four?) invested in martial maneuvers to qualify for that prestige class.

The last option allows you to be able to cast and select spells from higher levels earlier than the other options.

[TooManyBadgers]

im not losing any sc levels though... *confused*

Is your current build Battle Sorcerer 9/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10?

If it is, you're 'losing' 3 spellcasting levels, compared to Battle Sorcerer 20 -- 4, when compared to Wizard or Wu Jen 10.

What DeltaEmil is suggesting is that you go Spellcaster 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 10, instead, so you only 'lose' 2 levels.

From what you've said so far in this thread, I think the best match for what you're looking for would be:

Ardent 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage* 10/Ardent 4.

*adapted to be Evil-aligned and Psionic -- (exchange "2PP" for "spell level" in the arcane strike-equivalent ability and it should work pretty smoothly)

I think this is a good idea because:

• The Ardent's manifesting works like a more elegant spontaneous casting.
• The Ardent is based on Wisdom, which you should be able to boost higher than Int.
• The Ardent works in a frame similar to the Battle Sorcerer's (3/4 BA, can use armor, d6 HD)
• The Ardent multiclasses well when using Practiced Manifester (it doesn't delay Power level progression, so long as it advances Manifester levels).
• A Crusader dip can fill Devoted Spirit prerequisites, allowing access to higher-level maneuvers via JPM.
• The Crusader's recovery mechanism doesn't compete with your powers and class abilities for Swift Action slots.

[SylvanPrincess]

yeah i was just reading the feats u listed, good idea, and ill have to think on it some. i want good hp, and warblade certainly has that. but its only 1 level...

interesting, and awesome, it opens up the possibility of taking a level of samurai with maneuvers, thats cool. i know its not your point however.

i see your point about casting progression being slower, but i am trying to be more melee than caster, and so the hit die of the warblade, as well as the d8 from battle sorc into the d10 from jpm all attract me


good points, but i want to be good. having the jpm be psionic would be sic, i will bring that up

ok, i have to go to work for a few hours, the game starts tonight at around 10oclock, so i will check back here when i get home around 6ish and see if there is anything else posted. thanks so much you all for helping, i think this will be a sweet fun character to play :)

[Greenish]

The last option allows you to be able to cast and select spells from higher levels earlier than the other options.

Yeah, but without dipping into an initiator class, you won't have a mechanism to renew maneuvers.

[DeltaEmil]

Recovering maneuvers during a combat won't be that necessarily, as you're going to rely on spells like a normal full-spellcaster anyway, and the jade phoenix mage abilities concerning the use of martial maneuvers are rather mediocre, as you need to hit with a melee maneuver in a round, to be allowed to cast a metamagically modified spell the next round., or waste a spell to do more damage with your physical attacks, which are rather going to be a rarity amongst spell-casters.
Only the late abilities gained from more levels in jade phoenix mage are kinda good.
Most battles will be over in maximally 6 rounds, and if you have to use half of them punching another dude to cast your spells (they have to be strike maneuvers), it's not going to be so important like for true adepts of the sublime ways.

[Greenish]

Recovering maneuvers during a combat won't be that necessarily, as you're going to rely on spells like a normal full-spellcaster anyway, and the jade phoenix mage abilities concerning the use of martial maneuvers are rather mediocre, as you need to hit with a melee maneuver in a round, to be allowed to cast a metamagically modified spell the next round., or waste a spell to do more damage with your physical attacks, which are rather going to be a rarity amongst spell-casters.
Only the late abilities gained from more levels in jade phoenix mage are kinda good.
Most battles will be over in maximally 6 rounds, and if you have to use half of them punching another dude to cast your spells (they have to be strike maneuvers), it's not going to be so important like for true adepts of the sublime ways.

I thought the OP wanted a gish, where hitting people is the point?

[SylvanPrincess]

I thought the OP wanted a gish, where hitting people is the point?

yeah, basically thats what i want, a sturdy WARRIOR who can cast spells to augment her own abilities along with a few massive damage spells later on. im not sure 9th level spells are incredibly important, but wouldnt hurt.

the idea is to be a chaotic/lawful good female version of sephiroth. it doesnt need to be optimized as i want a few things for flavor purposes.

flavor:
-Aasimar +2 wis (or +2 cha), -2 con.
-japanese part of the world, so classes that fit there. almost any work.
-must be a spontaneous caster! this is important to me, that my spell ability be inborn. no books! lol
-2-3 base classes and ONE prc may be used
-id like a full bab, but 3/4 is alright too
-id like to avoid d4 hit die if possible. thats why the phoenix mage is sweet, but...
-i still have reservations using ToB. a lot of the prcs' abilities seem grossly over powered.

lately ive been thinking a lot about the 2 feats 'martial maneuver" and "martial stance" that let u learn feats and stances without swordsage/warblade, etc. i think it would be sweet to have say, a ninja/sorc with maneuvers, or a samurai with maneuvers and stances. our group still need an arcane caster, and a part time skill monkey(our rogue may not be able to make it every game)

[Keld Denar]

A pretty sweet PrC for you at this point would be Suel Arcanamach (CArcane). Its Cha based spontaneous casting from Transmutation, Illusion, Divination, and Abjuration, which contains most of the good Gish spells. You won't have any blasting outside of possibly a couple of crappy Transmutations (although Whirling Blade is a pretty effective "blast"), but you'll be all buff and beaty. Suel Arcanamach requires +6 BAB and some skills, but you could easily get into it with Duskblade2/Warblade4/SuelX. Duskblade gives you Combat Casting for free and the knowledges and arcane skills you need to get into Suel, and Warblade keeps you at maximal beatstickiness. Take Versatile Spellcaster and you'll be able to use your Duskblade casting for your Suel spells, and vise versa. Suel progresses casting a little faster at the start, even though you have to wait till ECL7 to get into it. It would be ideal if you could advance your Suel Arcanamach casting with Jade Phoenix Mage, but you mentioned that you are only allowed one PrC ever. Still, Suel has some ok features.

Thoughts?

[DeltaEmil]

Jade Phoenix Mage is definitely not overpowered, and polymorphing yourself into another form with superior strength is superior to taking a prestice class with a measly d8 hit die and the loss of two spell-casting levels, while only gaining three or so maneuvers makes it rather weak. Stylish, but nothing to worry about.

[Shyftir]

I am currently running a JPM who got there by mixing Duskblade and swordsage, Is he as beastly as a full caster? no, do I care... no.
My build is currently

Duskblade 5/Swordsage2/JPM 3

I get medium armor (I lost my Swordsage Wis to AC, but since wisdom is not important to the character...) A lot of maneuvers per encounter, spontaneous casting (only level 2 spells, but lots of spells) With practiced spell-caster, I still have full caster level for beating spell resistance.

Anyway, it's not a super-powerful spell-casting build, but it's fun and very gishy.

[TooManyBadgers]

If you want an easy build and spontaneous casting, but balk at maneuvers, you could do a lot worse than Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/BS 8

You'd get the full benefits of AbjChamp on a decent framework without looking cheesy. The spellcasting takes a hit compared to a straight sorcerer, but it's comparable to most sorcerer gishes.

[SylvanPrincess]

A pretty sweet PrC for you at this point would be Suel Arcanamach (CArcane). Its Cha based spontaneous casting from Transmutation, Illusion, Divination, and Abjuration, which contains most of the good Gish spells. You won't have any blasting outside of possibly a couple of crappy Transmutations (although Whirling Blade is a pretty effective "blast"), but you'll be all buff and beaty. Suel Arcanamach requires +6 BAB and some skills, but you could easily get into it with Duskblade2/Warblade4/SuelX. Duskblade gives you Combat Casting for free and the knowledges and arcane skills you need to get into Suel, and Warblade keeps you at maximal beatstickiness. Take Versatile Spellcaster and you'll be able to use your Duskblade casting for your Suel spells, and vise versa. Suel progresses casting a little faster at the start, even though you have to wait till ECL7 to get into it. It would be ideal if you could advance your Suel Arcanamach casting with Jade Phoenix Mage, but you mentioned that you are only allowed one PrC ever. Still, Suel has some ok features.

Thoughts?

Keld Denar:i like it, i like it a lot, but i dont like the separate spell casting progression. that right there is going to make it weak, at least i think so. getting 1st level spells at level 7?i dont know. i like the spells from those schools, but seems underpowered.

now if it advanced your spells + 1 level in those schools from an existing base, then cool. if i already have 2nd level spells in Transmutation, Illusion, Divination, and Abjuration, and it increased them plus ten caster levels at the end of the class, that seems more worthwhile. if i can some how get my dm to agree to that, then this is a great look :)

EDITED: ive thought about it, and having 5th level spells when you could have 7th stinks, but the fact that you can enter it from a fighter makes up for it. looking into it more closely now. seems that i would want to have arcane channeling at level 3 if i were to use duskblade. plus the duskblade is based offa int, and thats going to be a lower stat for me.

badgers: i like it, its to the point. its not i that balks at maneuvers, but i have a friend who doesnt have access to all the books i do, and tend to think everything is overpowered. i dont want to do an optimized build that he ends up thinking is unfair, i want everyone to be happy. that being said, he is going to be cleric 20 luck and travel domains, and id like to be able to match his contributions to the game when he discovers how awesome a cleric truly is

shyftir: i like that build, and i thought about it a little bit, but if i did jpm, i would want to have a quick caster progression to take advantage of arcane wrath, and actually build the build around arcane wrath, maybe without even taking a second level of jade phoenix mage. my thought was warblade 1/wizard 18/phoenix mage 2

[SylvanPrincess]

thinking more about duskblade leading into seul arcaramach, and if i just went straight 6 levels of duskblade, id have second level spells, all of a type the arcanamach will be getting at lev2 (cl 8). is it worth it to have the extra spells? it seems that duskblade/arcanamach is redundant a little bit, with both lessening arcane spell failure. and they both only count when casting spells from their own lists. the fact that it receives combat casting is nice, but i could get that by taking 2 levels of samurai, plus ancestral daisho.

warblade 3/swashbuckler 3/arcanamach 10 seems more synergistic maybe, fighting with a keen frost wakizashi..or 2. though know that i think of it, i forgot the spellcraft skill req

i think the requirement to gain a second prc, is to be either level 20, or completely finish a prc (3 and 5 level prcs not counting in this tally)

going for a non-maneuver version, i like the sound of
samurai 1/duskblade 5/arcanamach 10. its similar to your build, in that i would take the versatile caster feat, and then be able to ...cast more?

also, i just discovered the 5th level spell shadow evocation (illusion school), which lets u mimic any 4th level or lower evoc spell- but if the target suceeds a save, it is disbelieved, or in the case of a damage spell like fireball, only takes 20% damage. that makes for a little bit more blasting for the ol arcanamach! is it worth a spell known slot?