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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Does anyone have a comprehensive list of 3.5/PF classes that are based mostly around an at-will or per-encounter mechanic, rather than a per-day mechanic? Here are the ones that I know. Am I missing any?

    Totally Encounter-Based or At-Will
    • Warlock
    • Dragonfire Adept
    • Warblade
    • Swordsage
    • Crusader
    • Binder
    • Dragon Shaman
    • Incarnate
    • Totemist


    Has at-will or Encounter-based Elements
    • Factotum
    • Dread Necromancer
    • Truenamer (on this list due to the increasing DC)
    • Shapeshift Druid
    Last edited by subject42; 2010-08-24 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    You missed Dragon Shaman.

    Also, Fighters. :D And Rogues.

    As you said, at-will or encounter type powers. And "I attack again" is an at will. So is sneak attack, when you flank.
    Last edited by 0Megabyte; 2010-08-23 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    MoI ones, ie. Incarnate, Totemist and Soulborn.

    ToM also has Truenamer.

    Then there are all the martial classes without powers, such as fighter, rogue, swashbuckler.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Do wizards/sorcerers with reserve feats count?

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Fighter could go on the list, technically. Very few Fighter tricks are based around a limited resource other than HP and maybe ammo.
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Factotum has some pretty important per-day abilities. If Factotum is still on the list, I could argue that Paladin and Ninja (for example) should be too. They've got a fair mix of per-day and at-will abilities.
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Factotum has some pretty important per-day abilities.
    True enough. Opportunistic Piety and Arcane Dilettante are both x/day, while Cunning Knowledge is 1/day/skill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Scout
    Swashbuckler (all except for Lucky)
    Samurai (except for Kiai Smite)
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    A case could be made for Marshal, but everyone knows that class is just a one level dip in Diplomancer builds

    On a more serious note, a comprehensive list of classes, (NPCs, generic classes, and Vancian Casters excluded):

    barbarian
    eidolon
    factotum
    fighter
    marshal
    monk
    ninja
    paladin
    ranger
    rogue
    samurai
    scout
    soulknife
    swashbuckler
    warlock
    incarnate
    soulborn
    totemist
    binder
    dragon shaman
    knight
    crusader
    swordsage
    warblade
    dragonfire adept

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Barbarian's most iconic mechanic operates on a per day basis, so I don't think that counts. As had been said, Factotum has some of its most important features with daily limits (Cunning Knowledge, Arcane Dilettante), so that's a bit iffy too. Ninja/monk have enough daily abilities that I don't think they should count. That also goes for all the spellcasting classes, including paladin and ranger (especially paladin thanks to Smite Evil and Lay on Hands). And like barbarian, knight's most iconic ability is per day as well, so that shouldn't count either.
    Last edited by PId6; 2010-08-23 at 11:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    monk
    ninja
    paladin
    ranger
    samurai
    knight
    You could make an argument for most of those being mostly at-will or encounter based, yeah, but paladin? Spells, Turn Undead, Call Horsey, Smite Evil, Remove Disease… Yeah, that won't fly. The only at-will they have is normal attack and Detect Evil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    You could make an argument for most of those being mostly at-will or encounter based, yeah, but paladin? Spells, Turn Undead, Call Horsey, Smite Evil, Remove Disease… Yeah, that won't fly. The only at-will they have is normal attack and Detect Evil.
    Oh, I agree that not my entire list fits the OP's original question, but I get the feeling he's just looking for something other than a Vancian caster, so I gave him a comprehensive list.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    I would add Dread Necro.

    Charnel touch and fear aura at will.

    It's not a lot granted, but very helpfull for the class, especially the 1st. It's basically at will heal for himself (tomb stained soul/necropolitan) and all his undead minions.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    Oh, I agree that not my entire list fits the OP's original question, but I get the feeling he's just looking for something other than a Vancian caster, so I gave him a comprehensive list.
    I'm actually running into issues with varying levels of optimization in my players' party, as well as perennial issues of resource management across a few of the players. On top of that, the idea of a "day" is extremely nebulous in D&D, while "encounter" is pretty discrete and distinct.

    If it weren't for the fact that 4th edition didn't really do it for any of us, I would probably use that for this group, but I'd like to backport a few of the ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    ToM also has Truenamer.
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Last edited by subject42; 2010-08-23 at 01:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    I'd like to submit Wizard, Psion, and Erudite. With the various recharge tricks(Santum Lucubration, Psicrystal Leach, and Mental Pinnacle respectivly), they can last all day.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    I'm actually running into issues with varying levels of optimization in my players' party, as well as perennial issues of resource management across a few of the players. On top of that, the idea of a "day" is extremely nebulous in D&D, while "encounter" is pretty discrete and distinct.

    If it weren't for the fact that 4th edition didn't really do it for any of us, I would probably use that for this group, but I'd like to backport a few of the ideas.
    You might want to check out tome of battle (book of nine swords) with the martial maneuvers and how how they are recovered and some of the reserved feats in complete mage. It sounds like maybe you have a player blowing all their power at the drop of a hat or saving all of it till near party wipe, having something less than dropping a planet on someone/thing or something they won't have to fret over replacing later might be a good alternative... of course, maybe I completely misunderstood what the resource management problem you mentioned was.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    You might want to check out tome of battle (book of nine swords) with the martial maneuvers and how how they are recovered and some of the reserved feats in complete mage. It sounds like maybe you have a player blowing all their power at the drop of a hat or saving all of it till near party wipe, having something less than dropping a planet on someone/thing or something they won't have to fret over replacing later might be a good alternative... of course, maybe I completely misunderstood what the resource management problem you mentioned was.
    You're right on the money with those, and I'm slowly introducing them to the players as they progress. I'm just looking for more up-front methods for doing it as well.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    A team of 3+ Psions with one having Affinity Field effectively have Inf PSP via Bestow Powers from the other 2. All they need are a few minutes of downtime between encounters to get full.

    Hell, this can even be done solo with the right items/feats and a psi-crystal.
    Last edited by okpokalypse; 2010-08-23 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilJoe15 View Post
    I'd like to submit Wizard, Psion, and Erudite. With the various recharge tricks(Santum Lucubration, Psicrystal Leach, and Mental Pinnacle respectivly), they can last all day.
    Dude, if we let them in, then we let in everybody, & there goes the whole premise of the thread. Each of the classes that you cited need cheese to fight against the fire-&-forget nature of their powers, which make them superb examples of what this list is NOT about. Yes, there are certain tricks that can, under certain circumstances, extend the firepower of a given caster; but finding ways to include every class isn't really the point.

    The fighter, on the other hand, is built around the (flawed) premise that their capacity to fight indefinitely balances the casters' per-diem mechanics. They can swing their beat sticks all damn day, while the casters are (normally) forced to quit after their spells are spent.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2010-08-23 at 03:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    You're right on the money with those, and I'm slowly introducing them to the players as they progress. I'm just looking for more up-front methods for doing it as well.
    You could always introduce an NPC & quest to give them something along those lines with a bit less treasure from the quest itself. Possibly even add a cost to it, there are a few warforged feats that cost HP to use (shocking fist lets you add 1d4 electricity damage to the slam up to BaB at the cost of -1hp/1d4 damage to self, another heals them some and causes a debuff I forget the details on) so it's not completely out of nowhere.

    Is the problem an arcane, divine, or melee type? can you give a bit more detail on the problem itself? You could always drop a couple eternal wands in the treasure tables (2 charge/day every day) if it might help.
    Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2010-08-23 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Rope Trick Wizard. That is an encounter based class.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    Is the problem an arcane, divine, or melee type? can you give a bit more detail on the problem itself? You could always drop a couple eternal wands in the treasure tables (2 charge/day every day) if it might help.
    The problem is mostly on the caster side. I don't really make much of a distinction between Divine and Arcane, as they're both Vancian. Luckily most of my players are fairly enthusiastic about rebuilding characters, assuming that the fluff that they create still meshes with the available mechanics.

    The biggest problem right now is the "blaster bard" who is trying to use direct damage spells and melee attacks, which results in sub-par performance relative to some of the more optimized players as well as a short operating lifetime in any given day.

    The player is a little frustrated with it, but still wants to do the buffing thing. I was considering suggesting that they play a ToB class with some investment into the White Raven school.

    Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.

    For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    The problem is mostly on the caster side. I don't really make much of a distinction between Divine and Arcane, as they're both Vancian. Luckily most of my players are fairly enthusiastic about rebuilding characters, assuming that the fluff that they create still meshes with the available mechanics.

    The biggest problem right now is the "blaster bard" who is trying to use direct damage spells and melee attacks, which results in sub-par performance relative to some of the more optimized players as well as a short operating lifetime in any given day.

    The player is a little frustrated with it, but still wants to do the buffing thing. I was considering suggesting that they play a ToB class with some investment into the White Raven school.

    Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.

    For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.
    A reserved feat like acid splash(?)/force needle/etc that gives xd6 damage based on the level of memorized spells works great when combined with sneak attack. The "blaster bard" might find some kind of rogue/caster hybrid a good alternative, plenty of PrC's give partial sneak attack/caster progression. Even rogue with a level of wizard or sorcerer is enough to use a lot of the reserve feats. Giving the sorcerer one of the reserved feats would also solve his problems, no need to worry about running out of something they can use every round until they finally cast that last spell letting them use it.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    For the Sorcerer player, perhaps a partial rebuild to introduce them to Binder. Anima mage could help out there. The Cha synergy would be useful.

    As for the Bard...I think your suggestion of steering them toward White Raven is a good one. Shadow Hand and Desert wind offer a few blast effects if that is his style.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    A reserved feat like acid splash(?)/force needle/etc that gives xd6 damage based on the level of memorized spells works great when combined with sneak attack. The "blaster bard" might find some kind of rogue/caster hybrid a good alternative, plenty of PrC's give partial sneak attack/caster progression. Even rogue with a level of wizard or sorcerer is enough to use a lot of the reserve feats.
    If I'm playing a Rogue-type who wants to deliver sneak attack damage using a magical ranged touch attack, I'd much rather spend some skill ranks on Use Magic Device and buy some dirt-cheap wands of Acid Splash, rather than take a level in Sorcerer or Wizard and take a Reserve Feat. 1d3 damage isn't very different from 1d6 damage, and the investment is a lot less painful.

    As for the Bard...I think your suggestion of steering them toward White Raven is a good one. Shadow Hand and Desert wind offer a few blast effects if that is his style.
    Unfortunately, no Tome of Battle class gives both Desert Wind and White Raven access (unless I'm forgetting some PrC that does. Well, of course Master of Nine does, but ... I doubt that's what you're going for?). How attached is your player to blasting?

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    Additionally, I have a player with a sorcerer that is almost exclusively focused on defensive personal spells who doesn't do the crowd control or blasty thing until after the situation gets really bad due to a fear of running out of spells.

    For that player I was planning to suggest a binder, warlock, or binder/warlock/hellfire warlock.
    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    For the Sorcerer player, perhaps a partial rebuild to introduce them to Binder. Anima mage could help out there. The Cha synergy would be useful.
    Anima Mage will be a strong choice ... eventually, but it gets its power slowly. And most of the Binder blasting abilities will be unimpressive on a character that starts off mainly as a Sorcerer.

    Personally I love to just take the Dragonfire Adept and drop most of the dragon-specific flavor, and use that as a high-endurance Sorcerer class. Maybe your player won't be so worried about personal defensive magic when Constitution is his primary ability score and he has more HP than the rest of the party combined.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2010-08-23 at 04:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Yeah, I'll agree with Reserve feats for the Sorc and Crusader levels for the bard. These are great options and sound like they're designed for exactly your problem.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Everlasting Wizards and Sorcerers

    Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Quicken Spell
    Ignore Material Components, Improved Spell Capacity x2

    Innate Spell (Theller's Argauneau)
    Last edited by Andion Isurand; 2010-08-23 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andion Isurand View Post
    Innate Spell
    See, there's your problem. This is horribly underpowered anywhere pre-epic.

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    If I'm playing a Rogue-type who wants to deliver sneak attack damage using a magical ranged touch attack, I'd much rather spend some skill ranks on Use Magic Device and buy some dirt-cheap wands of Acid Splash, rather than take a level in Sorcerer or Wizard and take a Reserve Feat. 1d3 damage isn't very different from 1d6 damage, and the investment is a lot less painful.
    Eh, Acid flasks are better due to splash (cheap too).

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    Default Re: Classes that Don't Run Out of Gas [3.5/PF]?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post
    See, there's your problem. This is horribly underpowered anywhere pre-epic.
    Good thing its not used in a pre-epic fasion... albiet an arcanist must wait till epic level for this setup to hatch.

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