Why only Good vs Poor saves yet Good, Av, Poor BAB?

[Paganboy28]

Why are saves just either Good or Poor?

Why can they not use the same scale as BAB to make things simple and also allow more variation. Say a character who is av at all saves vs a character who is good at one but poor at 2?

[Fax Celestis]

I use a medium save in my games. Good is 2, +1/2 levels, Medium is 1, +4/9 levels, Poor is 0, +1/3 levels.

[FMArthur]

Because the Good and Bad saves don't require wierd fractions that need pondering every level. Implementing Medium saves means you have to put something between 1/2 and 1/3, which isn't as simple a fraction as either of them. You'd have to use 5/12 to get the true medium between them. If you're fine with that, then use it, by all means!

As for who to distribute it to...
I would give a free medium save to anyone with only 1 good save. In Core that's Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Sorceror and Wizard. Maybe make an exception to disclude Wizard from this, whose frailty is supposed to come with the package.

[Grommen]

The Arcanna Unearthed by Mongoose (might not be them) feachered classes with average saves. Honestly it is not a bad idea in campaigns that fetcher low magic, or people that are casual gamers and don't super tweak their toons.

[Mongoose87]

D20 Modern has them. I was told it was a leftover from 3.0.

[Renegade Paladin]

As for who to distribute it to...
I would give a free medium save to anyone with only 1 good save. In Core that's Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Sorceror and Wizard. Maybe make an exception to disclude Wizard from this, whose frailty is supposed to come with the package.

Paladin.

D20 Modern has them. I was told it was a leftover from 3.0.

You were told incorrectly; 3.0 D&D didn't have them either.

[Jack Zander]

or people that are casual gamers and don't super tweak their toons.

Your Warcraft is showing.

[Wonton]

I use a medium save in my games. Good is 2, +1/2 levels, Medium is 1, +4/9 levels, Poor is 0, +1/3 levels.

Just out of curiousity, why 4/9? Medium BAB is strictly the average of weak and poor BAB, so why didn't you do the same with the medium save?

[Mojo_Rat]

actually medium Saves kind of exist but they are not terribly common. a few classes about mid way somewhre get a +2 to one of their weaker saves and it effectively creates a medium base attack.

[Eldariel]

actually medium Saves kind of exist but they are not terribly common. a few classes about mid way somewhre get a +2 to one of their weaker saves and it effectively creates a medium base attack.

Scout and Swashbuckler. Scout has "medium" Fort thanks to Battle Fortitude and Swashbuckler has "medium" Ref thanks to Grace. Basically start off the same, get a +1 around level 2 and end up at 9.

[Fax Celestis]

Just out of curiousity, why 4/9? Medium BAB is strictly the average of weak and poor BAB, so why didn't you do the same with the medium save?

1 +4/9 levels works out to a +9 at 20th and follows a similar pattern.

{table=head]Good | Medium | Bad
2 | 1 | 0
3 | 1 | 0
3 | 2 | 1
4 | 2 | 1
4 | 3 | 1
5 | 3 | 2
5 | 3 | 2
6 | 4 | 2
6 | 4 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
8 | 6 | 4
8 | 6 | 4
9 | 6 | 4
9 | 7 | 5
10 | 7 | 5
10 | 8 | 5
11 | 8 | 6
11 | 9 | 6
12 | 9 | 6[/table]

[Wonton]

1 +4/9 levels works out to a +9 at 20th and follows a similar pattern.

{table=head]Good | Medium | Bad
2 | 1 | 0
3 | 1 | 0
3 | 2 | 1
4 | 2 | 1
4 | 3 | 1
5 | 3 | 2
5 | 3 | 2
6 | 4 | 2
6 | 4 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
8 | 6 | 4
8 | 6 | 4
9 | 6 | 4
9 | 7 | 5
10 | 7 | 5
10 | 8 | 5
11 | 8 | 6
11 | 9 | 6
12 | 9 | 6[/table]

I think the table's a bit off.
Just looking it over, level 7 should have +4, level 9 should DEFINITELY have +5.

[Eldariel]

1 +4/9 levels works out to a +9 at 20th and follows a similar pattern.

{table=head]Good | Medium | Bad
2 | 1 | 0
3 | 1 | 0
3 | 2 | 1
4 | 2 | 1
4 | 3 | 1
5 | 3 | 2
5 | 3 | 2
6 | 4 | 2
6 | 4 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
8 | 6 | 4
8 | 6 | 4
9 | 6 | 4
9 | 7 | 5
10 | 7 | 5
10 | 8 | 5
11 | 8 | 6
11 | 9 | 6
12 | 9 | 6[/table]

Then again, 1+5/12 would work very similarly:

{table=head]Good | Medium | Bad
2 | 1 | 0
3 | 1 | 0
3 | 2 | 1
4 | 2 | 1
4 | 3 | 1
5 | 3 | 2
5 | 3 | 2
6 | 4 | 2
6 | 4 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
7 | 5 | 3
8 | 6 | 4
8 | 6 | 4
9 | 6 | 4
9 | 7 | 5
10 | 7 | 5
10 | 8 | 5
11 | 8 | 6
11 | 8 | 6
12 | 9 | 6[/table]

Mostly tho, fractions that irregular are a real pain, especially when going by fractionals. So meh.

[Xuc Xac]

Why are saves just either Good or Poor?

Why can they not use the same scale as BAB to make things simple and also allow more variation.

You have three saves with two options for each. That allows for a lot of variety compared to BAB (7 combinations if you don't consider three poor saves to be a valid option). You only have one BAB with a few options.

[gomipile]

Your Warcraft is showing.

Funny, I originally heard "toon" as a reference to an avatar in City of Heroes.

[mikethepoor]

For an average save, I would go +1 to start, then +2/5 per level. That still gives you a +9 at level 20 and is a little easier than +4/9 levels. This, of course, assumes you take one class all the way to 20.

[Ashiel]

There are several ways to handle alternate saving throw progressions. Personally I've found that making all saving throws +1/2 level with a base of 0 or 2 to be extremely nice for both keeping saves normalized compared to monster abilities and spells, as well as preventing super-dipping (such as dipping for +2-3 bonuses in saves every level).

However, you could also introduce a "medium" save progression by alternating between. The poor save progression gives +1 every 3 levels, and the good is +1 every two levels. A medium would go 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3.

It would look like this.
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+7
+8

[Coidzor]

The Arcanna Unearthed by Mongoose (might not be them) feachered classes with average saves. Honestly it is not a bad idea in campaigns that fetcher low magic, or people that are casual gamers and don't super tweak their toons.

Um. I wasn't aware that Toon had saves. Interesting.

[Leewei]

The Arcanna Unearthed by Mongoose (might not be them) feachered classes with average saves. Honestly it is not a bad idea in campaigns that fetcher low magic, or people that are casual gamers and don't super tweak their toons.

Yep, it does. It's +1 every other level without the initial +2 that a "good" save comes with.

[TaintedLight]

Hehe, averaging the high and low saves on a per level basis and rounding down produces a weird progression:

{TABLE=head]Level|High|Low|Med
1|2|0|1
2|3|0|1
3|3|1|2
4|4|1|2
5|4|1|2
6|5|2|3
7|5|2|3
8|6|2|4
9|6|3|4
10|7|3|5
11|7|3|5
12|8|4|6
13|8|4|6
14|9|4|6
15|9|5|7
16|10|5|7
17|10|5|7
18|11|6|8
19|11|6|8
20|12|6|9[/TABLE]

[Lapak]

Um. I wasn't aware that Toon had saves. Interesting.

If Resist Fast Talk isn't a save, I don't know what is.

[Drolyt]

I was considering adding a medium save in Drolyt20, if I don't replace it with 4e flat bonuses + 1/2 level. Really though, why do saves and attack bonus have to follow patterns? Why can't each class just have it's own, completely random progression?

[Renchard]

I was considering adding a medium save in Drolyt20, if I don't replace it with 4e flat bonuses + 1/2 level. Really though, why do saves and attack bonus have to follow patterns? Why can't each class just have it's own, completely random progression.

Standardization makes people happy. Unless it's power progression in 4e, of course, which makes people snippy. :)

[Eldariel]

I was considering adding a medium save in Drolyt20, if I don't replace it with 4e flat bonuses + 1/2 level. Really though, why do saves and attack bonus have to follow patterns? Why can't each class just have it's own, completely random progression.

Mostly a matter of ease of homebrew and advancing monsters and such; having to figure out what exactly that added HD does for each monster separately would be something of a pain.

Tho older editions had random progressions far as classes are concerned and they worked fine, but they had far fewer classes and far more saves too, and no monsters-following-rules to worry about.

[Drolyt]

Presumably if you didn't have standardized saves for PC classes you would still do so for monsters (maybe all monsters get +1 per 2 levels) or else each monster entry would include an advancement section that explained that.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Because "good" is the 'medium' everyone talked about. Getting the best (highest numbers) for saves is gotten by multiclassing. Hence the xp penalty or prereqs for PrCs.

[Greenish]

Getting the best (highest numbers) for saves is gotten by multiclassing. Hence the xp penalty

You're talking about the xp penalty that forces you to take lots of short dips, which incidentally boosts saves through the roof?