What does "optimization" mean to you?

[Tyndmyr]

The problem is, in any given game system, there are a finite number of optimal solutions to a given problem. D&D is very much one of those games. I see the same solutions being offered to things all the time, especially in the Playground. Tome of Battle being a very common one. But even ignoring that, the same spells and feat combos get reiterated all the time.

This is true. There's a few reasons for this...but mostly, it's just really, really hard to memorize everything in 3.5. There's just a lot there. I guarantee there are awesome combos nobody has found yet, simply because they require some ridiculously obscure mixing from wildly different sources and use unusual steps along the way.

And of course, there's always the easy answer. I'm frequently guilty of lazily linking to an existing guide or quoting stock answers when people ask for build advice. Give 'em the easy paths to power first.

I don't know how muh of that is simply recieved wisdom, the RPG equivalent to net decking, and how much is just the fact that these things work. Whatever the reason, there really aren't that many builds around that are proven.

Well, there's a lot of builds...but there's a limit to how many builds can be well known. And to how many builds one person can reasonably play at a time. Personally, if Im involved in over 2 campaigns at once, my schedule gets too stretched. While I can play around with optimization a fair bit in theory, my actual playtime is limited, and when I get it, I like to play one character for lengthy periods of time.

And the fact that they are called builds is proof enough that these concepts aren't characters. They're thought excercises and equations, not something you'd really want to play out over 20 levels.

A build is only a portion of a character. If the only aspects of your character are those written on your sheet, you're probably not roleplaying much or at all. This is logical, as most builds don't enforce a single character concept. Keeping the optimization related to just the build is a GOOD thing. Imagine if it were strictly mechanically superior to be say, chaotic neutral, and to kill a baby every week. Optimization then WOULD be terrible for roleplaying. Best to preserve seperation.

However, you are correct in that many builds only consider the final goal, not the process of getting there. While it might be fun to have ultimate power after 19 levels of suck, that probably isn't a great build for most situations.

[Greenish]

And the fact that they are called builds is proof enough that these concepts aren't characters. They're thought excercises and equations, not something you'd really want to play out over 20 levels.

Of course builds aren't characters! That's like saying leaves aren't a tree. A build is just the mechanical aspect of the character.

Wisely said...but I disagree with your second part. Infinite loops are somewhat different in nature than other forms of optimization, and if there's one thing people can agree is purely TO, not PO, it's infinite loops.

What, you mean you wouldn't actually play a character that can provoke infinite Attacks of Opportunity per round?

[Esser-Z]

No, because that would meant taking infinite critical hits.

[Greenish]

No, because that would meant taking infinite critical hits.

Only if you find someone who can make infinite attacks of opportunity. Is there a way to do that?

[Esser-Z]

...point. But there surely is!

[kyoryu]

Wisely said...but I disagree with your second part. Infinite loops are somewhat different in nature than other forms of optimization, and if there's one thing people can agree is purely TO, not PO, it's infinite loops.

But they're within the rules. The same arguments apply. The reason that people don't play them is a combination of convention ("loops are bad, even if legal") and gentleperson's agreement ("they'd completely break the game, making it pointless").

Those are exactly the same reasons people avoid lesser levels of optimization. The only difference is where the boundaries are set. The limits you placed are arbitrary - perhaps universal, or nearly so, but still arbitrary.

I'm not saying "all optimization = Pun-Pun," just to be clear. Merely that every group *has* these limitations, the only question is where they exist for a particular play group.

[WarKitty]

Only if you find someone who can make infinite attacks of opportunity. Is there a way to do that?

Infinite dexterity?

[Greenish]

Infinite dexterity?

As far as I know, even Pun-Pun can only achieve insanely high ability scores, but not truly infinite.

Anyway, I had to double-check and I don't think the method (atavist 10 + Psionic Meditation) I was thinking for generating infinite AoO would work.

[Esser-Z]

That'd do it.

[WarKitty]

As far as I know, even Pun-Pun can only achieve insanely high ability scores, but not truly infinite.

Anyway, I had to double-check and I don't think the method (atavist 10 + Psionic Meditation) I was thinking for generating infinite AoO would work.

Technically he can achieve infinite scores, but it would take an infinite amount of castings to do so.

[Arillius]

Optimization for me is making the best character I can with in the part of the story I'll be filling. So I do as much as I can without sacrificing story elements.

[Umael]

Technically he can achieve infinite scores, but it would take an infinite amount of castings to do so.

Can Pun-Pun do that?

I mean, an infinite number of castings require an infinite amount of time. I don't know how long the generic D&D universe is supposed to last, but... well, does the D&D universe have the time? Or is there a way for Pun-Pun to extend the time of the universe.

...I have a bad feeling I just opened the floodgates to a line of thought best left undisturbed. Kind of like "ancient evil trapped in the earth". Probably eats the flesh and only the flesh off still living babies.

[liquid150]

Can Pun-Pun do that?

I mean, an infinite number of castings require an infinite amount of time. I don't know how long the generic D&D universe is supposed to last, but... well, does the D&D universe have the time? Or is there a way for Pun-Pun to extend the time of the universe.

...I have a bad feeling I just opened the floodgates to a line of thought best left undisturbed. Kind of like "ancient evil trapped in the earth". Probably eats the flesh and only the flesh off still living babies.

Pun Pun can ascend in approximately 2 rounds, or maybe it was 3? I don't remember.

Whatever it was, it wasn't even close to 10 rounds.

[Esser-Z]

Technically he can achieve infinite scores, but it would take an infinite amount of castings to do so.

I'm pretty sure somebody made an actual infinite loop for him at one point.

[Tyndmyr]

Can Pun-Pun do that?

I mean, an infinite number of castings require an infinite amount of time. I don't know how long the generic D&D universe is supposed to last, but... well, does the D&D universe have the time? Or is there a way for Pun-Pun to extend the time of the universe.

...I have a bad feeling I just opened the floodgates to a line of thought best left undisturbed. Kind of like "ancient evil trapped in the earth". Probably eats the flesh and only the flesh off still living babies.

Yeah, you really don't want to know the answer to that. People will start discussing the difference between arbitrarily high stats and actually infinite stats, which leads to discussion on different orders of infinity. It's better for your sanity to never contemplate such things.

Rest assured that Pun Puns stats are whatever Pun Pun wants them to be.

[The Glyphstone]

Wow, 10 pages about optimization before someone PunPun's the thread. Impressive.

[a_humble_lich]

Yeah, you really don't want to know the answer to that. People will start discussing the difference between arbitrarily high stats and actually infinite stats, which leads to discussion on different orders of infinity. It's better for your sanity to never contemplate such things.

It's true, even after an infinite number of castings you'd still be left with merely a countably infinite stat. You'd need to find a way to pull off Cantor's trick to get an uncountably infinite stat. Even worse, is the time required, to get a singularity in finite time you'd want something of the form x_n+1=A x²_n, perhaps with clones . . .

[Ravens_cry]

I am glad Pun-Pun was invented, as it is the ultimate, endgame example of brinkmanship in 3.5. Now that we know it can be done, there is no need to do so. Optimisation is dead, long live optimisation.
Now we can get back to just playing the game. A given amount of optimisation is required in a given campaign. And that amount varies from campaign to campaign, DM to DM.

[dsmiles]

I am glad Pun-Pun was invented, as it is the ultimate, endgame example of brinkmanship in 3.5. Now that we know it can be done, there is no need to do so. Optimisation is dead, long live optimisation.
Now we can get back to just playing the game. A given amount of optimisation is required in a given campaign. And that amount varies from campaign to campaign, DM to DM.

w00t! ANOTHER nail hit square on the head!

[liquid150]

It's true, even after an infinite number of castings you'd still be left with merely a countably infinite stat. You'd need to find a way to pull off Cantor's trick to get an uncountably infinite stat. Even worse, is the time required, to get a singularity in finite time you'd want something of the form x_n+1=A x²_n, perhaps with clones . . .

The brokenness of Pun Pun is not just his ability scores. He has every ability ever published, and any ability he can come up with that isn't published.

Even without infinite ability scores, Pun Pun may grant himself something silly like:

Pun Pun Wins (Ex): Any action that would be harmful in any way to Pun Pun immediately fails. Pun Pun is unable to be damaged in any capacity, whether it be hit point damage, level loss, ability score damage, etc. Anything that would negatively impact Pun Pun immediately fails. Pun Pun may not be targeted by any attack, be it melee, ranged, spell, spell-like ability, supernatural ability, extraordinary ability, or any other form of attack.

[Caphi]

dsmiles, did you contribute anything to this thread other than quoting other posts and saying "^ this"?

Speaking of which, ^ this. As liquid says, Pun-Pun's arbitrarily high stats are not themselves his power, but a mere side effect of his actual power, which is nothing more than getting Manipulate Form on a PC. Manipulate Form is the core of Pun-Pun. Everything else comes from there.

[kyoryu]

I am glad Pun-Pun was invented, as it is the ultimate, endgame example of brinkmanship in 3.5. Now that we know it can be done, there is no need to do so. Optimisation is dead, long live optimisation.
Now we can get back to just playing the game. A given amount of optimisation is required in a given campaign. And that amount varies from campaign to campaign, DM to DM.

OTOH, he's the ultimate excuse for munchkins. "Hey, I'm not a munchkin. I mean, it's not like I tried to get away with playing Pun-Pun!"

Kinda like "Kim-Jong Il's not too crazy. I mean, sure, he's a little off his rocker, but he's no Hitler."

[Esser-Z]

Pun-Pun is an exercise in putting DM tools into player hands. Manipulate Form is pretty much an abilityified form of DM Fiat. Unfortunately, it's within the rules, and so...

[The Glyphstone]

OTOH, he's the ultimate excuse for munchkins. "Hey, I'm not a munchkin. I mean, it's not like I tried to get away with playing Pun-Pun!"

Kinda like "Kim-Jong Il's not too crazy. I mean, sure, he's a little off his rocker, but he's no Hitler."

Oh good, now we've PunPunned and Godwin'ed the thread. This is going great places.

[Greenish]

Oh good, now we've PunPunned and Godwin'ed the thread. This is going great places.

We've also had… (spoilered for length):

Spoiler

Show

• ToB
• reflavouring vs. canned flavour
• a passing mention of stormwind
• roleplaying your character's mental scores
• D&D vs. other systems
• ramming chtulhu with a boat (always a winner)
• AD&D nostalgia
• kobolds
• PF druid changes
• guisarme-guisarme-guisarme-glaive-nosepicks
• edition warz
• disney movie references
• personal antimagic fields
• cheese
• suel arcanamachs
• monks
• George Carlin
• M:tG
• PO/TO
• grievous bodily harm with obscure sourcebooks
• binders
• Neverwinter Nights
• Errol Flynn
• Bob the Plumber's cousin Jack the Sorcerer
• Metal Gear Solid

…and many others.

"Going places" doesn't begin to describe this thread.

[Esser-Z]

I'm not seeing any Monty Python. Can't be D&D without some Python!

Or is that just D&D sessions?

[Umael]

Oh good, now we've PunPunned and Godwin'ed the thread. This is going great places.

...

As the contributor of Pun-Pun to the thread, and thus the indirect contributor of Godwin to the thread, I have to say... thanks, Glyphstone. You just made me feel guilty.

...hug?

(Hey, we hadn't taken this thread to group therapy yet.)

[kyoryu]

Oh good, now we've PunPunned and Godwin'ed the thread. This is going great places.

I like pie.

Cake eaters are evil.

[Ravens_cry]

OTOH, he's the ultimate excuse for munchkins. "Hey, I'm not a munchkin. I mean, it's not like I tried to get away with playing Pun-Pun!"

Kinda like "Kim-Jong Il's not too crazy. I mean, sure, he's a little off his rocker, but he's no Hitler."

And I would say " No, you're not Pun-Pun, but you're still breaking this world in ways I don't like." The stinkiest Gouda for me is abusing the granularity of the rules, such as Free Action abuse.

[The Glyphstone]

I like pie.

Cake eaters are evil.

That's because they eat lies.

(Chalk up a Portal reference to the list now.)