What does "optimization" mean to you?

[WarKitty]

Hmmm...it seems like part of the problem is "fit your character concept to the game." A high-powered wizard that has the ability to freeze time is out of place in a campaign where everyone is bumbling around trying to impress the barkeep's daughter. A barbarian that tries to panse the monsters in a dramatic save-the-world campaign is equally out of place.

[Greenish]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. If I can get one person to open their mind up and see things from a different angle, the spears and arrows I get in return are worth it!

The horrible, horrible spears and arrows of someone disagreeing with you.

I've played a character so powerful he could literally break plots apart with a couple of spells.

…makes you far more powerful than any Batman, God or whatever kind of D&D caster you are.

I'm not sure how bragging how you've made a game-breaking character (or dripping condescension on people who like D&D) helps you point.

The relative positive or negative of that really does depend on your concept...

Obviously. The concept should fit the game, just like the build should fit to the power level of the other players.

[Lord Raziere]

Unfortunately, I think you are almost entirely alone in that definition. To most of us, that's Powergaming, Twinking, Munchkining, or just being Red Mage.

Then alone I shall be. I make a functional character, but I don't try to maximize it, I just make one, sit down and start roleplaying, the mechanics are just there to make the game fair for everyone, to me its roleplaying that is important.

[Boci]

Then alone I shall be. I make a functional character, but I don't try to maximize it, I just make one, sit down and start roleplaying, the mechanics are just there to make the game fair for everyone, to me its roleplaying that is important.

Yes but you're using a different definition of a word to pretty much everyone else. The fact that you are unbothered by this is fine, but some find it strange.

[Chaelos]

My views:

High-end optimization, frequently, serves as little more than a euphemism referring to the process by which munchkins convince themselves that they're not munchkining at the moment. Low-end optimization involves building a character guided by the simple notion that, in a de facto "superhero" team game like D&D (especially at higher levels), a character ought to be powerful/capable enough to make a meaningful mechanical contribution to the efforts of the party.

There is a difference, of course, between creating a (mechanically) competent character and deliberately setting out to embody a tried-and-true "optimization" concept/build (e.g. Batman/Controller/God Wizard, Mailman Sorcerer, Ubercharger, etc.)--but the line of demarcation is frequently very much ephemeral and difficult to pin down. Intent goes a long way in fixing the location of this line, but part of the trouble lies in the type of game your DM is running. Some DM's will throw things at you that require excessive amounts of optimization, while others require very little at all to excel.

I apply a (highly subjective, admittedly) two-part test in determining whether or not a build lies in the munchkin side of things, or in the hypothetical "healthy optimization" side: 1) "Would I, as a DM, forbid this? and 2) "Would I be ashamed to play this at my weekly tabletop session?" If the answer is "yes" to either question, I rework things until I'm satisfied. Obviously, every person (and every table) is different, but I've found this to be a helpful rule-of-thumb.

[Umael]

Then alone I shall be. I make a functional character, but I don't try to maximize it, I just make one, sit down and start roleplaying, the mechanics are just there to make the game fair for everyone, to me its roleplaying that is important.

That's fine, but don't lump everyone else in the same pot, please.

When I sit down to create a character, I might spend just five minutes, or I might spend days, weeks, months, even years on a concept. I have an idea, I write it down, I fill it away, I find it again, I revise it once, I put it away, I let it percolate... insight! Then it is a frenzy of finding the right merits and flaws, backgrounds, disadvantages, advantages.

In the end, it is the concept, not the build, that matters. The build is the slave to that concept. If optimization means I am willing to intentionally cripple myself with a mechanical flaw because it means I have to RP something new from a different angle, then that's optimization with which I can agree.

[The Big Dice]

You can do some crazy stuff with divination and Legend Lore and Bardic Knowledge.

Really, the question is why waste your time with any of that. When you can just mind controller all these people to do exactly what you want.

GURPS is in a different league when it comes to subtle but powerful magic. D&D blows stuff up great. GURPS lets you be broken in ways that have nothing to do with killing stuff. But really, it's comparing apples and golf clubs, the two games are so radically different from each other.

As for why you'd want to use knowledge as a weapon instead of using magic as a blunt instrument, read this. Then read the Wizard's Rules. Particularly the first. Then put those ideas into action

. As a Scorpion character of mine in an L5R game once said, sometimes it's not what you do. It's what the other guy thinks you'll do that matters. And overt uses of magic don't often serve a purpose. At least not in games where experience isn't directly tied to killing things.

[Caphi]

GURPS is in a different league when it comes to subtle but powerful magic. D&D blows stuff up great. GURPS lets you be broken in ways that have nothing to do with killing stuff.

And you can't do this in D&D3 because...?

[Boci]

GURPS is in a different league when it comes to subtle but powerful magic. D&D blows stuff up great. GURPS lets you be broken in ways that have nothing to do with killing stuff.

Trippyverse?

Edit: skitternerved.

[The Big Dice]

And you can't do this in D&D3 because...?

Because being subtle in D&D doesn't net you experience points. And the spells aren't really geared for a more academic mage to be an effective character.

It's not so much a dig at D&D as it is acknowledging that there are things D&D can't do. Just as a GURPS mage can't toss Fireballs and Lightning Bolts around, a D&D Wizard can't contribute in quite as roundabout and indirect a manner as a GURPS one.

But the real reason I brought up my old GURPS wizard was to illustrate that I've been there when it comes to munchkin style play. And it gets boring. When you have the ability to break a game in two, you start to ask yourself, "Why am I playing this depressing, all powerful character? There's no challenge to anything anymore and things are getting boring because of that. I wanna play a Ranger instead. Go all TWF and archery feats and have some fun by having to work for it instead of getting it on a plate!"

I have a feeling that quite a few people who have been roleplaying for a long time and using a variety of systems are going to have had the same epiphany that I did.

[Boci]

Because being subtle in D&D doesn't net you experience points.

You can for rp.

And the spells aren't really geared for a more academic mage to be an effective character.

Trippyverse?

It's not so much a dig at D&D as it is acknowledging that there are things D&D can't do. Just as a GURPS mage can't toss Fireballs and Lightning Bolts around

You do know optimizers consider blasting suboptimal?

But the real reason I brought up my old GURPS wizard was to illustrate that I've been there when it comes to munchkin style play. And it gets boring. When you have the ability to break a game in two, you start to ask yourself, "Why am I playing this depressing, all powerful character? There's no challenge to anything anymore and things are getting boring because of that. I wanna play a Ranger instead. Go all TWF and archery feats and have some fun by having to work for it instead of getting it on a plate!"

So the Dm ups the challange. Only problem is if not everyone in the party is at the same power level, and that could be either sides fault.

[WarKitty]

And now you understand why I sometimes like to play a kobold. Or a druid that is absolutely attached to her heirloom dragonhide full plate despite having 9 strength.

[Boci]

Or a druid that is absolutely attached to her heirloom dragonhide full plate despite having 9 strength.

Attached as in wore or just carried with her?

[Greenish]

And now you understand why I sometimes like to play a kobold.

…Because your munchkiny instincts gain an upper hand from your more sensible side?

[WarKitty]

Attached as in wore or just carried with her?

As in wore.

…Because your munchkiny instincts gain an upper hand from your more sensible side?

Huh? Seriously though, it is fun taking a weaker class or race or whatever and making it work. And I am talking normal kobold, not venerable dragonwrought kobold.

[Boci]

As in wore.

Well, if you're in wildshape form for most of the day...in all seriousness, why did your character put a valuable family hairloom risk and ware armour ill suited for her?

Huh? Seriously though, it is fun taking a weaker class or race or whatever and making it work. And I am talking normal kobold, not venerable dragonwrought kobold.

Even regular kobolds are nasty buggers if you play them right and use the web enhancement.

[Greenish]

Huh? Seriously though, it is fun taking a weaker class or race or whatever and making it work. And I am talking normal kobold, not venerable dragonwrought kobold.

They're pretty decent without dragonwrought, with RoD and it's web enhancement.

Just pointing out that they don't really work as a byword for "weak race" anymore.

[WarKitty]

Well, if you're in wildshape form for most of the day...in all seriousness, why did your character put a valuable family hairloom risk and ware armour ill suited for her.

Short version, it is actually wild armor I just neglected to specify that. It was her father's armor and she inherited it as part of her training.

Even regular kobolds are nasty buggers if you play them right and use the web enhancement.

Forgot about that. Our DM doesn't allow web enhancements.

[Yukitsu]

Go check out John Wick's Youtube channel. He can say these things better than I could ever hope to.

The GM is the final arbiter of what happens in his game sessions. The very rulebooks that other people enshrine empower him to ignore them. You could even argue that by playing to the same rules as the players, the GM is breaking the rules. And equally, by cheating he is playing by the rules as given in The Book.

Actually, he uses a lot of logical fallacies, so I don't really like his arguments in a lot of issues. I especially dislike his incorrect use of the term "murder" as that's one of my biggest pet peeves. I really hear better arguments in classes dedicated to discussion of those issues than his rantings.

That aside, I don't think there's anything wrong with DM's thinking they are the be all and end all of what is balanced and what are the rules, but if they try to pull that in the middle of combat, or after play has started, I generally leave. And 9/10 times, the rest of the party has as well. When we're at the table and we're in play, there should be no "surprise rules" that are suddenly used in the middle of combat.

Edit: One of his arguments relies upon a complete off the cuff re-definition of protagonist. I don't really like people that can't use words as conventional English defines.

[Greenish]

Short version, it is actually wild armor I just neglected to specify that. It was her father's armor and she inherited it as part of her training.

So how is using the armour a weak choice?

[Boci]

Short version, it is actually wild armor I just neglected to specify that. It was her father's armor and she inherited it as part of her training.

Is it really that suboptimal then? Or were you never saying it was.

Forgot about that. Our DM doesn't allow web enhancements.

Well, without web enhancements they're pretty much weaker halflings, so I'd just reflavour the latter, but I can see the atraction to playing a genuine kobold.

[WarKitty]

Is it really that suboptimal then? Or were you never saying it was.

Heh - silly me forgot to mention this was a pathfinder game. Wild shape nets you a +2 to strength. So I go from a 9 to an 11 when I wild shape appropriately. I'm still not exactly an effective melee fighter. It's armor that cost a feat on a caster. It's not a useless item, but it's not the greatest choice either.

[Boci]

Heh - silly me forgot to mention this was a pathfinder game. Wild shape nets you a +2 to strength. So I go from a 9 to an 11 when I wild shape appropriately. I'm still not exactly an effective melee fighter. It's armor that cost a feat on a caster. It's not a useless item, but it's not the greatest choice either.

Was there any particular reason it had to be armour druids don't have proficiency with?

[Keld Denar]

GURPS lets you be broken in ways that have nothing to do with killing stuff.

2 words...Planar Binding.

1 spell, and your options are limitless. Oh, and guess what book its in? Right...the PHB, the most blatently overpowered book in the game. Tell me again what a GURPS wizard can do that this one spell can't?

I'm not advocating the abuse of this spell, just that things aren't exactly as you seem to think they are. Wizards in D&D are all about action/option advantage. They take as many actions as possible, and take away as many as possible.

[WarKitty]

Was there any particular reason it had to be armour druids don't have proficiency with?

Had to do with her father, who was actually a previously played character. He already had a dip in fighter by the time he picked the armor up.

[Boci]

Had to do with her father, who was actually a previously played character. He already had a dip in fighter by the time he picked the armor up.

This is what I don't get. My father used this armour, he had training to do so, its now a family heirloom. So far so good. But then why do you waer it when it was made for your farther? If it was something to do with how she was taught, why was she taught to fight like that when she aparantly wasn't suited that well for that particular fighting style?

I know such a character can still function, but it strikes me as odd that they would spend time learning to use something that is ill suited for them.

[WarKitty]

This is what I don't get. My father used this armour, he had training to do so, its now a family heirloom. So far so good. But then why do you waer it when it was made for your farther? If it was something to do with how she was taught, why was she taught to fight like that when she aparantly wasn't suited that well for that particular fighting style?

I know such a character can still function, but it strikes me as odd that they would spend time learning to use something that is ill suited for them.

Meh, makes sense to me at least. In-game, her stated reason is "It helps me not take damage while I'm casting my spells." Her unstated reason is that she wants to be like her dad and has a bit of an inferiority complex.

[Boci]

Meh, makes sense to me at least. In-game, her stated reason is "It helps me not take damage while I'm casting my spells." Her unstated reason is that she wants to be like her dad and has a bit of an inferiority complex.

Well we're different people. If it was my character I would probably have had her keep it tucked away in her backpack to look at before going to sleep, but thats just me. Your character isn't a one of those stupid examples of sacrificing power unneccissarily and claiming tis for flavour, and I wouldn't be bothered if she was in my group.

[WarKitty]

Well we're different people. If it was my character I would probably have had her keep it tucked away in her backpack to look at before going to sleep, but thats just me. Your character isn't a one of those stupid examples of sacrificing power unneccissarily and claiming tis for flavour, and I wouldn't be bothered if she was in my group.

Depends on the tier I'm playing too. The higher tier my class is compared to the rest of my group, the more I sacrifice. The lower tier my class is compared to my group, the more I optimize. In this case I'd say I'm 1-2 tiers ahead of the group to start with.

[Greenish]

Well we're different people. If it was my character I would probably have had her keep it tucked away in her backpack to look at before going to sleep, but thats just me.

I dunno. It's not the best option ever, but it's not a bad choice either. Druids aren't so feat-heavy (and PF gives more feats but less options), using one for better protection (full plate, after all) is viable.