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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

    The Old Thread Is Gone. All Hail the New Thread.

    Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

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    Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

    Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

    General Advice for all armies;
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    • Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
    • If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
    • Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
    • GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
    • In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
    • With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
    • Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
    • Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
    • In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
    • Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
    • Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
    • Vehicles and You.
    • Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
    • Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army
    • Closet_Skeleton says:
      "Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."
    • How To Write An Army List | Sample
    • Should you buy a Battleforce? In most cases, yes.


    Guide to Armies
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    Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
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    Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
    GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
    Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
    Power Armour and Bolters.

    Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
    One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
    The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

    Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
    * or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
    What's so bad about AoBR?

    Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

    The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
    Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
    Black Templars: Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
    Space Wolves: Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
    Blood Angels: The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

    If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.


    Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
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    Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
    Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
    There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
    Power Armour and Bolters.
    Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

    Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
    CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
    The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

    Recommendation for Newbies: ****

    Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

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    Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

    World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
    Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
    Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
    Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
    Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
    *** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

    Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
    All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
    Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
    Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
    However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
    Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
    *** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

    Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
    Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
    Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
    Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
    Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
    Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
    **** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

    Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
    Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
    Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
    The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
    On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
    The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
    **** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.


    Tyranids ('Nids):
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    If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
    Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
    A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
    Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

    Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

    Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
    As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

    Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

    Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.


    Eldar:
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    Elves. In SPAAACE!
    Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
    Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
    As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
    A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
    Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
    A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
    Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
    ...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

    Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
    The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
    Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
    It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
    Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
    Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

    Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.


    Dark Eldar (DE):
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    Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
    Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
    The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
    The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
    Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
    Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
    In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

    Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff ). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
    The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
    A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
    A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
    Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

    Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.


    Necrons:
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    Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
    Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
    Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
    As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
    Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
    The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
    Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
    Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
    The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
    The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese!
    Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

    Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
    Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
    The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
    The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
    Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
    The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
    (Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

    Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
    * if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
    **** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.


    Tau:
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    With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

    Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
    Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
    Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

    HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

    Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
    This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

    Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

    The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
    Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
    Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

    Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

    Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

    Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.


    Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
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    Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
    Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
    The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
    Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
    Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
    High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
    Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

    Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

    ...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

    Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

    This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

    The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

    With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

    Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
    ** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
    Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.


    Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

    Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

    Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

    Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.
    Imperial Guard Tanks.


    Still to come;
    Imperial Guard, Daemon and Witch Hunters and Orks.
    These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

    Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
    More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

    SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
    Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.


    19.6.10 - Linked to "Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting And Assembling An Army"
    20.6.10 - Linked to "How To Write An Army List"
    2.7.10 - Linked to Battleforce evaluations and cost-effectiveness.
    01.10.10 - Linked to "Speaking Of Tournaments: General Pointers For the Tournament-Bound Army List"

    Orks is next (Coming: TBA)

    Predecessors:
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    * Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God
    * Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne
    * Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
    * Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
    * Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
    * Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Last Time, on DragonBall Z 40k-in-the-Playground......
    • Is it a good idea to make your moves according to what the 'average' dice roll says should happen? Should you try not to rely on statistics and instead command through sheer gut instinct? Math vs. Entrails, the debate rages on....
    • Tren reckons that his Night Spinner is brilliant, and no one has yet told him that he's wrong. Is the all-seeing eye of Cheesegear losing focus, or are the pointy-eared weirdos finally on to something....?
    • Winterwind has asked 3 times that someone show him a Mech-Eldar army list, but to no avail. Won't someone please think of the Winterwinds!?!


    (Thread Title still up for debate, let me know if someone has something better)
    Last edited by Wraith; 2010-09-30 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Spellcheck failure
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Mat

    Also, there was a question if anyone uses ICs, which I'd like to hear, too
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    You mean like Special Characters IC's? Because those get used a lot.
    Or are you talking about the kind of deal where you run your Captain straight down the middle of the field with no support?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    I think he means the former, Shas. Otherwise, since most HQ choices are Independent Characters, it would be a very simple topic

    Anyway, since you asked Trixie, I personally do not use Special Characters very often, but only because I have played only Eldar and (briefly) Daemonhunters for the last 5 years and they never seem to be worth the hassle.

    Don't get me wrong, Eldar SC's are quite good (some more so than others, of course) but none of them seem to do anything that I can't already do with an Exarch or Farseer, who are cheaper and thus let me field more useful stuff besides.
    Occasionally, when we're making a big game into an even bigger one (3000points+) I might drop Karandras into my Scorpions unit or Maugan Ra into my Dark Reapers, but in truth I don't really want them there - it's just a way for me to get another 7 attacks in close combat or another 5 shots with Reaper launchers without forking out a lot of money on another squad of models and another FoC choice.

    And don't even bother asking about the DH characters, for the same sort of thing is true of them too - particularly the Grey Knight SC who gives your opponent a free Lord of Change....

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    EDIT: And a Robert Palmer reference is almost as good as this.
    Nice choice, dsmiles. I was almost going to use "Everything More Dakka Than Everything Else" in the same sort of tone, but I thought it a little smug to start a new thread AND to choose my own, unapproved title to boot.

    Edit: Changed 'IC' to 'SC', as kindly pointed out below
    Last edited by Wraith; 2010-08-26 at 02:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Special characters! SCs, not ICs! (I'd hope basically everyone uses the latter)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    As a Necron player, I'd LOVE to have a special character... And would probably use him in every match just for the heck of it. No, the Nightbringer and Deciever don't count.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Mostly, I meant uniques. I ask, because I asked around the local tourney scene (local, meaning = my country), and found two formats are really popular:

    A) You have 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite, 1 FA, and 1 HS. After you fill all of them, you get another 1 FA, HS, Elite, and so on.

    B) You can't take two units with the same name. So, no for one unit of LC and one of TH Termies, but taking standard and assault Termies is okay. The limit is only waived when you run out of choices in given category, especially troops.

    Both formats disallow named ICs, and are supposed to stop "spam" of the strongest units. I think they're both... weird, to say the least.

    And now I wonder, are unique ICs so broken and spam as big a problem that you have to do this?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    IMHO, it depends on the point value.

    In say 2k+ your enemy most likely has a enough points to soak the damage the big scary SC can do, or have something to counter it, but depending on your army, at smaller games say 1k or so, some armies barely meet the min requirements for the tourny force chart requirements. That and some armies don't have decent SC, or only have one anyone might honestly consider (for one reason or another).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Unfortunately, Tau SCs seem kinda weak to me. I'd rather put my Shas'O'Ukos in a FW XV-8 series (81, 84, or 89) with his two bodyguards and let him go to town. Alternately, I hide my (as yet) unnamed ethereal behind his FW bodyguards (Now with CARBINES!) in the back of the army (as best I can).

    EDIT: @Trixie: Wait, what? Can't take two units with the same name? I don't get it...My army list has more than one unit of FWs...I have to give up all but one unit of the mainstay of my force?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    • Winterwind has asked 3 times that someone show him a Mech-Eldar army list, but to no avail. Won't someone please think of the Winterwinds!?!


    Technically, I asked only once for a list (namely that of Tren, since he'd stated he was having a fair amount of success with it), the other times I only asked how effective Mech-Eldar were (which was answered to my satisfaction).

    But, if we're at this topic anyhow, I can try to write up an army list and ask what people think of it.

    Keep in mind I've never played against Eldar, so my understanding of what works with them and what doesn't may be somewhat... foggy.

    Spoiler
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    HQ
    Farseer - 110 Points
    - Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones. Doom

    ELITES
    Striking Scorpions (x10) - 212 Points
    - Exarch, Scorpions Claw, Stalker, Shadow Strike

    Fire Dragons (x10) - 192+130 Points
    - Exarch, Dragon Breath, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
    + Wave Serpent with Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers and Spirit Stones

    TROOPS
    Pathfinders (x10) - 240 Points

    Pathfinders (x10) - 240 Points

    Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 152 Points
    - Shuriken Cannon (x2)

    Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 152 Points
    - Shuriken Cannon (x2)

    FAST ATTACK
    Vyper - 60 Points
    - Scatter Laser

    Vyper - 60 Points
    - Scatter Laser

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    Fire Prism - 150 Points
    - Holo-field

    Fire Prism - 150 Points
    - Holo-field

    Night Spinner - 150 Points
    - Holo-field

    Total: 1998


    Alternately exchange the Night Spinner for another Fire Prism.

    Also alternately, replace the two squads 6 jetbikes with 2 cannons with four squads 3 jetbikes with 1 cannon.


    Less Wave Serpents, Vypers and Elites than I would have liked... still, how's that look?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Also, there was a question if anyone uses ICs, which I'd like to hear, too
    Well, as I already said in the old thread, I don't use any, but they are quite frequently used by other people at my shop, much to my chagrin. Assuming you mean SCs, not ICs, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    EDIT: @Trixie: Wait, what? Can't take two units with the same name? I don't get it...My army list has more than one unit of FWs...I have to give up all but one unit of the mainstay of my force?
    Note these rules also allow you only 2 Troop choices, ever. So, it seems rather clear to me the people devising those did... not exactly think it through too much.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2010-08-26 at 05:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    EDIT: @Trixie: Wait, what? Can't take two units with the same name? I don't get it...My army list has more than one unit of FWs...I have to give up all but one unit of the mainstay of my force?
    I said the limit is waived when you deplete the category. IIRC, for Tau, that would be taking Firewarriors, Kroot, get a waiver, again, Firewarriors, Kroot, etc.

    Yes, I know it's weird. It must suck for everyone who isn't Necron.

    But the loss of unique ICs sucks too, especially for Dark Angels, Tau, SM, and Blood Angels. This outright deletes some very nice lists.

    Note these rules also allow you only 2 Troop choices, ever. So, it seems rather clear to me the people devising those did... not exactly think it through too much.
    That 'etc' included Troops and HQs, too. Yes, I shold have clarified. Still, the upper limit is still the standard GW one, it's the way of filling it that is modified.

    And don't even bother asking about the DH characters, for the same sort of thing is true of them too - particularly the Grey Knight SC who gives your opponent a free Lord of Change....
    Which would be good if C:CSM still had Lords of Change. As of now, there's one Codex that can use it, and their GD's are probably already upgraded, as someone in the old thread pointed out.

    So, can anyone even benefit from this?
    Last edited by Trixie; 2010-08-26 at 05:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post

    And don't even bother asking about the DH characters, for the same sort of thing is true of them too - particularly the Grey Knight SC who gives your opponent a free Lord of Change....
    Sir, I assume you are referencing Brother-Captain Stern, no? Stern does not give your opponent a free Lord of Change. What Stern does do is allows them to upgrade a greater daemon (taken via the adversaries special rule, which I've never seen anyone utilize) into a Lord of Change at no extra cost. So the opponent gets a 100-point Lord of Change, made better by the fact that the rule still works in 5th edition, unlike much of the rest of the codex.

    But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.

    EDIT: As for SC's in general...well, at the place I play, it varies depending on the army. Every obnoxious 12-year old ork player I know (there are many) fields Ghazkull (or however you spell that, you know what I mean) and all the other obnoxious 12-year olds, (tyranid players) field the Swarmlord and that unique zoanthrope as much as possible. However, I rarely see SM, IG (wait, does Pask count?), or Tau special characters.
    Last edited by Incomp; 2010-08-26 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    I said the limit is waived when you deplete the category. IIRC, for Tau, that would be taking Firewarriors, Kroot, get a waiver, again, Firewarriors, Kroot, etc.

    Yes, I know it's weird. It must suck for everyone who isn't Necron.

    But the loss of unique ICs sucks too, especially for Dark Angels, Tau, SM, and Blood Angels. This outright deletes some very nice lists.
    Look, I like my Tau, but even I have to say, "Kroot? Eww."
    I have them in one 'themed' army list that I just play for gits and shiggles. It's an 'Alien Auxiliaries' List so, Kroot and Vespids (again, eww).

    And the loss of SCs isn't that painful to me, as a Tau player. The only one I really like is Shas'O'Redsuitguy with the Eldar(Necron?) artifact sword thingy, and I don't even use one...I just like his fluff.

    EDIT: @Trixie: Probably doesn't suck much for 'Nids either. Because, you know, Without Number.
    Last edited by dsmiles; 2010-08-26 at 05:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Incomp View Post

    But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.
    I'm pretty sure all 3rd ed. SC's are garbage, Stern is no exception.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    Look, I like my Tau, but even I have to say, "Kroot? Eww."
    I have them in one 'themed' army list that I just play for gits and shiggles. It's an 'Alien Auxiliaries' List so, Kroot and Vespids (again, eww).

    And the loss of SCs isn't that painful to me, as a Tau player. The only one I really like is Shas'O'Redsuitguy with the Eldar(Necron?) artifact sword thingy, and I don't even use one...I just like his fluff.
    Only, ironically, using that particular SC would have enabled you to skip the Kroot under those rules, if he was not forbidden also.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    I'm pretty sure all 3rd ed. SC's are garbage, Stern is no exception.
    2 wounds? 5+ Invulnerable save? 3 attacks? [sarcasm]Are you kidding?[/sarcasm]

    I also think it's funny that he's cheaper than a regular Grand Master.
    Last edited by Incomp; 2010-08-26 at 05:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    And the loss of SCs isn't that painful to me, as a Tau player. The only one I really like is Shas'O'Redsuitguy with the Eldar(Necron?) artifact sword thingy, and I don't even use one...I just like his fluff.
    Commander Farsight. Incidentally, I meant him, when I mentioned Tau. I know that if I ever started Tau army, he would lead it. He is so much cooler than all the other HQs combined

    Also, I have checked, and it appears literally no one can take free LoC. C:CSM doesn't have them, C:CD doesn't have GD's you can upgrade, C:DH doesn't have stats for such an upgrade. So, it's paper scare.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Incomp View Post
    Sir, I assume you are referencing Brother-Captain Stern, no? [.....]
    But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.
    Opponent has a Daemon Prince, pays nothing (+/-0 points) and it turns into a Lord of Change. Meh, it was close enough for me

    Like you say about Stern being bad, I'd genuinely prefer to pay the 40 points difference and take an ordinary Grand Master with the same equipment. That's equivalent to.... What, nearly one Grey Knight with a Psycannon? Not a big loss. And what I get in return does virtually the same thing, but is much better because I'd be allowed to give him Psy-bolts and some other useful things to boot.

    See what I mean about ordinary IC's being just as good - if not better - than a lot of SC's? And given that in this case it's a GREY KNIGHT hero, that's pretty embarrassing....!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Also, I have checked, and it appears literally no one can take free LoC. C:CSM doesn't have them, C:CD doesn't have GD's you can upgrade, C:DH doesn't have stats for such an upgrade. So, it's paper scare.
    Okay, here's how it works: Your opponent decides to wreck his carefully planned list and use the adversaries rule, taking a greater daemon from C:DH for 100 points and dropping something. You then inform him you are using Brother-Captain Stern, which allows them to "upgrade" (your opponent's GD may be better if they're lucky) their GD to a Lord of Change for no cost. The Lord of Change was provided by the old C:CSM I would assume. Nowadays it is helpfully provided by C:CD.

    EDIT: and yeah, Wraith, a grand master (4 points more expensive base, comes with same gear as Stern except no Grimore) IS better than Stern, unless you really really like The Strands of Fate.
    Last edited by Incomp; 2010-08-26 at 06:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    So... no comments on that list I posted up there?

    (Usually, I wouldn't be whining so shortly after posting it, but seeing as there is at least one Eldar player who has responded to posts made after I posted that list, but not mine, an Eldar player renowned for his helpfulness towards less experienced players no less, I figure it may have been overlooked )
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Commander Farsight. Incidentally, I meant him, when I mentioned Tau. I know that if I ever started Tau army, he would lead it. He is so much cooler than all the other HQs combined
    Cooler, yes, but I'm in a campaign with a few friends, and I have an XV-8 pilot who ended up getting promoted to Shas'El, then to Shas'O (within 8 months), so it's a matter of personal accomplishment for me now. Plus, with him, I can use any of the FW XV8-series models for his Crisis Suit. (And I really love posing and painting those things! )
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    So... no comments on that list I posted up there?
    If you're going that heavy on the armour, you might want to try adding Spirit Stones. Generally you won't want to reroll a 'stunned' result on the damage table with the holo-fields, but if your tanks are hit and unable to fire, you really, really want them to be able to move out of sight and not get hit again. Against many opponents, you're going to stand or fall by those fire prisms.
    Last edited by SmartAlec; 2010-08-26 at 06:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Incomp View Post
    I also think it's funny that he's cheaper than a regular Grand Master.
    It's important to remember that Brother-Captain Stern is in fact a Brother-Captain, of which there are many, who come in at 61pts each. The Grey Knight Grandmaster is a 0-1 choice, because there is only one Grandmaster.

    I'd much rather SCs were rubbish than game-breaking. I'd prefer if they were useful without being broken, but failing that, I'd rather they were rubbish.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainKing View Post
    Yes; how dare I think differently? Clearly I need to be educated. If being a proponent of using statistics the way you do means I'd end up treating people the way you do, I'm pretty sure I want nothing to do with it. Period. You could show me how to blow up the freaking moon with little plastic soldiers, and I wouldn't care a bit.

    So what if people believe something different from you? It's not your place to educate anybody. If you want to educate someone, teach them the rules; don't treat your addiction to math like it's the end all, be all.
    On a d6, you are going to roll a 4+ roughly half the time. That is a fact.
    3+? 2/3. 4+, then 3+? 1/3. 3+ with a re-roll? 8/9. Maths deals in facts.

    Dismissing that is tantamount to thinking 2+2=5, and is very similar to claiming any scientific theory as "just a theory".
    N.B. Scientific theories have to undergo rigorous testing and collection of huge amounts of data before they can be called a theory.

    Also: ad hominem? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    B) You can't take two units with the same name. So, no for one unit of LC and one of TH Termies, but taking standard and assault Termies is okay. The limit is only waived when you run out of choices in given category, especially troops.
    That's pretty friggin' ridiculous. That's very friggin' ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Incomp View Post
    taken via the adversaries special rule, which I've never seen anyone utilize
    I don't think it exists any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Incomp View Post
    But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.
    Really? He's 44 points less than a Grandmaster (w/Holocaust, Hammerhand and Grimoire), and has -1A, -1W, and his re-roll thing, which has an immense effect. Bear in mind that any accumulated re-rolls are lost at the end of the player turn, so the opponent can only really use it in Assault, in which case, he's got another re-roll for his armour save.

    Winterwind: I'm not sure about the 2x10 Pathfinders. I'd probably drop them down to 2x5 and take some more psykery. Especially Fortune.
    I'd also drop Tank Hunters from the Fire Dragons. You have nine Meltaguns, after all.
    I'm not sure where the Farseer is meant to go.
    Also, your list seems kinda...small. Especially for 2k.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    So... no comments on that list I posted up there?

    (Usually, I wouldn't be whining so shortly after posting it, but seeing as there is at least one Eldar player who has responded to posts made after I posted that list, but not mine, an Eldar player renowned for his helpfulness towards less experienced players no less, I figure it may have been overlooked )
    Sorry WW, I was digesting your list as I typed my previous post,but then forgot to respond proper as I was busy adding links to the OP. But since that other helpful Eldar Player won't step up, I suppose I could offer my thoughts....

    In short, it looks good as a fairly balanced list that tries to fight all-comers, while preferring to do it with more Skimmers than not. You've made the right choice my Infiltrating the Scorpions instead of giving them a transport, despite it upsetting your overall theme, and although the two units of Pathfinders would be just fine as Rangers, I think I understand why you have gone all-out and upgraded them. Perhaps consider taking one Squad of Pathfinders and one of Rangers, which should give you enough points back to invest in more Jetbikes?

    I think you're also right to have two squads of 6 Jetbikes, because ultimately they're only T(4) with guardian Armour, and will be wiped out quickly in a smaller amount (see above regarding getting more!)
    I agree that it's a shame you ran out of room for another Vyper, as I would really like to run some myself, but in a coin-toss between that and a Night Spinner I think we'd argue a lot and neither would be a particularly better choice than the other so you're not doing anything wrong there.

    The only outright criticism that I would offer is that your Farseer looks lost on his own like that.
    I'm assuming that he'd join one of the Pathfinder units and spam Doom all game, but you might also consider putting him on a Jetbike with a Singing Spear and running him with one of the Squads.
    He can still Doom anything that needs it, but you'll also have a useful anti-tank unit should the need arise (and it very well might, since your only dedicated alternatives are the Fire Prisms, which aren't very efficient and yet are extremely big, attractive targets).

    If I were going to make a Mech-List, it would look very different - I'd have a Seer Council-on-Jetbikes instead of Scorpions and probably a Squad of Shining Spears instead of the Fire Dragons - if you;re going to have Jetbikes, have LOTS of them, I say! - but as I said about your list would be the more balanced (and probably far more successful) one
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I think you're also right to have two squads of 6 Jetbikes, because ultimately they're only T(4) with guardian Armour, and will be wiped out quickly in a smaller amount (see above regarding getting more!)
    Minor point: Guardian armour is 5+, Jetbikes have a 3+.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    SUPER LONG MULTI-MEGA POST!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Is it a good idea to make your moves according to what the 'average' dice roll says should happen?
    Yes, and No. I think that yes, Statistics has a place, in fact, you don't even need statistics because anyone with a brain, at all, ever, can surely realise that WS5 is better than WS3, and that S/T 4 is better than S/T 4/3.

    You don't need statistics. You can surely, without fail, say that 'on average' a Khorne Berzerker will kick the crap out of a Kroot. It's simple numbers on a page, guys. 7 > 4. Everyone knows already.

    'Average' dice rolls...Don't belong in 40K. Any decent statistician will tell you that normal distribution doesn't exist with samples under 30. Have you ever rolled 30 dice at once? Unless you're Orks, Guard or 'Nids, probably not. However, that's one of the reasons why good Guard and 'Nids list can consistently win. Because the dice will actually roll what the theory says.

    Furthering this, a good statistician will tell you that samples sizes should be somewhere in the two to three hundred range...

    Tren reckons that his Night Spinner is brilliant, and no one has yet told him that he's wrong. Is the all-seeing eye of Cheesegear losing focus, or are the pointy-eared weirdos finally on to something....?
    Does it count if I was asleep?

    Anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tren View Post
    I love my Night Spinner, it's fantastic against just about everything. A S6 rending large blast is nothing to scoff at
    Yes it is.

    and even with AP- it's going to be forcing a lot of wounds.
    High Strength doesn't mean anything if you still get a save. Rending may pay off a few times in game, but, it's not something you can rely on, and therefore not good.

    At BS3, it doesn't really get that many Hits in the first place anyway.

    For me personally, since most of my local metagame consists of Space Marines, I don't even notice the AP-.
    I wish I played in your meta-game. If someone is throwing AP- weapons, then I'm laughing. If I'm not playing Space Marines, then the Night Spinner still allows for cover saves.

    People also tend to seriously underestimate having to take a difficult/dangerous terrain check next time you move.
    That's probably the only good thing about it. But, you're paying 115 points for privilege. And that's before the pretty costly vehicle upgrades. As a Barrage weapon, it also causes Pinning, I'll give it that.

    It's great at sniping special models
    No it isn't. Because it's your opponent that decides who takes the wounds.

    Actually come to think of it, the same 2000pt mech list has gone 6-0 so far, primarily against Vulkan lists and mech IG, with I think one game against nids.
    You're playing 2000 points? Then there's really no excuse to be taking the Night Spinner if you've got that many points. I'm also assuming you're giving vehicle upgrades, which are expensive.

    D-Cannons. Also barrage. 3 of them for 150 points gives Multiple Barrage. They always wound on 2s (so could be equivalent to S6 most of the time). Are AP2, so will kill any and everything. Rending isn't an issue. And then on a 6, they get super-Rending causing Instant Death. The only thing that Night Spinners have over D-Cannons is range. But, I think if you're playing a Mech List, you have plenty of long-ranged firepower already.
    Add a Warlock with Conceal or Destructor.

    A Dark Reaper Exarch with a Tempest Launcher on his own is better than a Night Spinner. Except that he's not on his own and has bodyguards to take wounds for him. For extra survivability.

    A Wraithlord takes dual Flamers, EML and Scatter Laser.

    Trip-War Walkers on Outflank with dual Scatter Lasers each.

    FA 12 is not that tough. Especially if you're also not a Wave Serpent.

    A non-upgraded Night Spinner, in lower point games does wonders for it's points cost. In formats where Infantry are the name of the game (like in 1000 points). But, just like anything that you qualify with 'for it's points cost', once you hit larger-scale games, it quickly becomes not that good. Maybe you could try three Fire Prisms.

    S6, AP3 is way better than S6, AP-, Rending.
    Also, Fire Prisms are BS4, not BS3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Also, there was a question if anyone uses ICs, Special Characters which I'd like to hear, too
    Space Marines, yes. The Space Marine special characters allow for pretty high diversity among the most-played army in the game. Without special characters, all Space Marine armies are pretty much the same, and therefore crap.

    Dark Angels without Special Characters are fail. There is zero reason to play Dark Angels if you can't use their Characters. Because some of them are pretty good.

    Space Wolves, yes. However, I don't see Ragnar, Ulrik or Bjorn used at all.

    Blood Angels, initially, Mephiston was seen quite a lot. But, my meta-game reacted staggeringly quickly to him. Or, perhaps, the Tyranid Codex that came out a few months before already had people reacting to psyker-MCs. However, unlike Tyranids, there are no multiple-MCs to be found in Blood Angels.

    These days I see I lot of Gabriel Seth and Tycho in smaller games. And Astorath in larger games for Hammernator killing and lots of passed failed Black Rage rolls. The extra Death Company though, I don't see too often.

    Chaos Daemons, yes. Every list I have ever written, and those very few that I've played against, have had a Special Character in it. With the possible exception of Masque, all the Daemons' characters are fairly good in a Codex that otherwise fairly sucks. SCs give CDs that extra oomph that they need.

    Chaos Marines, not really. I see Typhus with stunning regularity. It allows people running mass Plague Marines to keep a not-terrible Comp Score that they'd get if they ran Lash-Princes. Because the army makes sense. "Oh, tons of Plague Marines, you're such a cheater! Oh, you're running Typhus? You're playing Death Guard then, that's cool. Have some Comp Points."
    I've seen Abaddon used a few times. He's that good. I, myself, thought about running Lucius, but, I never got my CSM army off the ground.

    Daemonhunters...No. Just...No. A regular Grand Master is way better than Sten. And Coteaz is too costly. And if you actually use his ability to take 15 Henchmen, he can't fit in a Chimera for mass-fail times.

    Dark Eldar...They're all fairly amazing in their own way. Since I've never really talked about DE special characters, I'll do so now.

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    Asdrubael Vect is a Fast, Skimming Land Raider. With two Disintegrators and a Dark Lance (and two Splinter Pistols), as BS6. Sure, he's Open-Topped, but, he's still Armour 14.

    Kruellagh the Vile has Saga of the Warrior Born. Watch her rack up lots of kills. As per the broken wording of 3rd Ed. Codecies, if she is accompanied by a Retinue, she is no longer an Independent Character, and so can't be targeted in Assault. Although, she is missing a key piece of Wargear that Archon's need; The Shadow Field.

    Lelith is exactly what you want. For some reason, she is cheaper than an Archite with the exact same wargear. I see her used a lot with 'that Dark Eldar player', she also chooses what Combat Drugs she gets (although you can only choose one). The only thing she's missing is Plasma Grenades. Although if you pick Always Strike First for her Combat Drug there's no problem. She costs 90 points. The model is sweet.

    A regular Archite, with the exact same wargear is 143 points. Comes with Plasma Grenades and the ability to take more than one Drug. For +50 Points. Seriously. That's the difference.

    If you're taking Incubi, and not taking Drazhar, you fail. Spectacularly. The model is awesome. Even if you're not taking Incubi, every Dark Eldar player should have Drazhar in their collection.

    Urien Rakarth automatically wounds with his attacks (suck it, Wraithlord). Pity his WS and I isn't that good for an Eldar SC. Although he does walk around with the Crucible of Malediction, which is helpful considering that psykers are all the rage these days. Then he runs around with super-Grotesques. Which are pretty cool.

    Decapitator is fun like Ymgarl Genestealers are fun. Except that you don't need to place him in terrain. But, you can't put him in your opponent's DZ. He's an HQ choice though, which is weird these days for something that does what he does (Sly Marbo, Deathleaper), and should be an Elites choice. However, unlike Sly and 'Leaper, Decapitator can actually do things on the turn he's revealed.


    Eldar have the Wonder Twins. They're better than the other HQ options you can take of the same calibre. So there's no reason not to take them.

    Imperial Guard...Creeeeeeeed! I've seen Stracken used in specialised lists built around him. Marbo. Yes. Harker and Bastonne have been used well in my area.
    I've also seen Pask being failingly used in Vanquishers. And expertly used in an Exterminator.

    Necrons; Nightbringer...Wins! Deceiver is good too. But not quite as good as Nightbringer.

    Orks; Grotsnik, Wazdakka and Zagstruk. And G*. Damn. Zogwort.

    Tau, I don't see any SCs get used.

    Tyranids; Swarmlord. I myself, will use the Parasite of Mortrex someday. Doom of Malan'tai stopped being used a lot when he got nerfed by the FAQ. He's still used, just not as often.

    Witch Hunters; Both of them are pretty good. I see Celestine a few times. And there's a guy who has his Master of the Forge, a bunch of Dreadnoughts and Karamzov stomping around the field. It's quite a sight. And works pretty well.

    To those places that don't allow Special Characters, I can only say that you should cry more and harden up. Use Comp Scores.

    The only character that my area has even thought about banning was Zogwort.

    Using more than one Special Character isn't exactly banned. But, you're going to get lots of...Unpleasantness directed towards yourself. And your Comp Score goes down the drain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    I'm pretty sure all 3rd ed. SC's are garbage, Stern is no exception.
    Dark Eldar disagree. The Nightbringer disagrees. The Deciever convinces you that you are right, and continues to allow you to wallow in your misconception that benefits him. Celestine says 'whatever' and then her army of raging Sisters comes to kill you for Heresy.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-08-26 at 07:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Eldar have the Wonder Twins.
    Wonder Twin powers, ACTIVATE!

    (and this was all I got out of your entire post. sorry. )
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Whoa. New thread already.

    Anyway! So I've been informed that there is going to be a 500 point tournament with some modified rules in my area soon. Basically what was changed was we are only allowed to take the following:

    0-1 HQ choices (Yes we can play without HQ choices)
    1-3 Troop Choices
    0-2 Elite Choices
    0-2 Fast Attack Choices
    0-2 Heavy Support Choices

    Also, the following rules have been implemented:
    1. No models with more than 2 wounds.
    2. No units with an armor save of 2+.
    3. No Special Characters
    4. No Ordnance Weapons
    5. Total Armor Value of vehicles must not go over 33.

    As usual, I plan on fielding a Vanilla Space Marine army. Here is my current list:
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    Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 [125]
    Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 with Power Fist[150]
    Razorback with Assault Cannon [75]
    Razorback with Assault Cannon [75]
    Scouts with Sniper Rifles x5 [75]


    The thing is, I'm going to be fighting a lot of MEQ lists, and I'm not sure if I'm properly equipped to deal with them. I've imagined quite a few lists such as a Space Wolves list with 2 squads of Long Fangs, or a Blood Angels list with 20 Assault Space Marines, some Power Fists and a Sanguinary Priest, things like that. Do you guys have any suggestions on whether I should change my list or on how I should deal with such lists if I come across them?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Ma

    Comp score?
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